COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word

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Marco70

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All I see is your words over God's WORD. Do you have any scripture?
Well when scripture is posted to you, you have responded with the above emboldened. What was that about wilfull, unrepentant sin?
 
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klutedavid

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In your opening post you wrote the following paragraph.
The Greek words used here is handwriting G5498 χειρόγραφον; cheirographon; which means; hand written legal document which is combined with ordinance G1378 δόγμα dogma dog'-mah From the base of G1380; which means; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law: - decree;
Now your going to have to concentrate on what you wrote above.

You said, 'From the base of G1380; which means; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law'.

If you did your research on that statement above, you should have checked the meaning of G1380?

The meaning of the Greek word, G1380, is certainly not civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical.

Here is the meaning of the Greek word G1380.

The KJV translates Strong's G1380 in the following manner: think (33x), seem (13x), suppose (7x), seem good (3x), please (2x), miscellaneous (5x).

You need to reply with the corrected version of that paragraph, so that I can continue reading your opening post!
 
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LoveGodsWord

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In your opening post you wrote the following paragraph.

Now your going to have to concentrate on what you wrote above.

You said, 'From the base of G1380; which means; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law'.

If you did your research on that statement above, you should have checked the meaning of G1380?

The meaning of the Greek word, G1380, is certainly not civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical.

Here is the meaning of the Greek word G1380.

The KJV translates Strong's G1380 in the following manner: think (33x), seem (13x), suppose (7x), seem good (3x), please (2x), miscellaneous (5x).

You need to reply with the corrected version of that paragraph, so that I can continue reading your opening post!

Hello David, thanks for your post.

You are quoting the wrong greek word. The GREEK quoted above from the OP is from the GREEEK word used for "ORDINANCE" in Colossians 2:14. Here is the word for word from the GREEK STRONGS Dictionary..

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G1378; ORDINANCE; δόγμα; dogma;
dog'-mah From the base of G1380; a law; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical: - decree, ordinance.

Hope this helps.
 
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klutedavid

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Hello David, thanks for your post.

You are quoting the wrong greek word. The GREEK quoted above from the OP is from the GREEEK word used for "ORDINANCE" in Colossians 2:14. Here is the word for word from the GREEK STRONGS Dictionary..

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G1378; ORDINANCE; δόγμα; dogma;
dog'-mah From the base of G1380; a law; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical: - decree, ordinance.

Hope this helps.

The KJV translates Strong's G1378 in the following manner: decree (3x), ordinance (2x).

No problem so far.

Then you wrote.

From the base of G1380; a law; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical: - decree, ordinance.

What do you mean by, 'From the base G1380; a law...'?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The KJV translates Strong's G1378 in the following manner: decree (3x), ordinance (2x).

No problem so far.

Then you wrote.

From the base of G1380; a law; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical: - decree, ordinance.

What do you mean by, 'From the base G1380; a law...'?

Simply and only that the GREEK Word for ORDINANCE as used G1378; meaning; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law from COL 2 :14 comes from G1380 nothing more.

Hope that helps.
 
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klutedavid

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Simply and only that the GREEK Word for ORDINANCE as used G1378; meaning; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law from COL 2 :14 comes from G1380 nothing more.

Hope that helps.

G1378
means; doctrine, decree, ordinance.

How do you get civil, ceremonial, law, from G1378?

Why mention G1380?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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G1378
means; doctrine, decree, ordinance.

How do you get civil, ceremonial, law, from G1378?

I am not sure where you get your translation. I think I posted above that mine came from the KJV STRONGS Dictionary. I have my own STRONGS but if your interested for a quick online look....

Here is a link to the online version from Biblehub this has both STRONGS and THAYLER Dictionaries (linked CLICK ME) .

Why mention G1380?

No reason, just out of interest.

Hope this helps.
 
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klutedavid

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I am not sure where you get your translation. I think I posted above that mine came from the KJV STRONGS Dictionary. I have my own STRONGS but if your interested for a quick online look....

Here is a link to the online version from Biblehub (linked CLICK ME) this has both STRONGS and THAYLER Dictionaries saying the same thing.




No reason, just out of interest.

Hope this helps.
Your missing the point.

I am using Strong's Lexicon.

G1378
doctrine, decree, ordinance.

So one translation follows.

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (G1378) that was against us... (Colossians 2:14) KJV

Another translation.

Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us... (Colossians 2:14) (NASB)

Did you notice the different translations of G1378?

One uses the word, ordinances, the other uses, decrees.

Both are accurate translations because G1378 means, doctrine, decree, ordinance.

No one can then claim that G1378 means; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law. Simply because the text does not say that.
Your church may say that, but the text does not say anything about civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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No one can then claim that G1378 means; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law. Simply because the text does not say that.
Your church may say that, but the text does not say anything about civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law.

Well that is not true.

THE Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G1378; ORDINANCE; δόγμα; dogma;
dog'-mah From the base of G1380; a law; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical: - decree, ordinance.

The CONTEXT of COL 2 is the CEREMONIAL laws in relation to CIRCUMCISION and SHADOW laws and the reason for adding this to the OP was to show COL 2 is not talking about the 10 Commandments as being SHADOW laws but the SHADOW laws in ORDINANCES were from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT.

This is what COL 2 is discussing hence the GREEK dictionaries use of ORDINANCE which means the CIVIL, CEREMONIAL of ECCLESIASTICAL laws which is in reference to the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT and the SHADOW laws for remission of sin which is the CONEXT and subject matter of COL 2.

Hope this helps.
 
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Bob S

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No, I demonstrated from Exodus 33:12-23, Exodus 34:1-8, Exodus 20:5-6 KJB previously. I also included Psalms 40:8 KJB, which is given in the context of Jesus Christ, Psalms 40:7,9-10 KJB. Notice the righteousness in His heart, then turn to Psalms 119:172 KJB.

Psalms 40:8 KJB - I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.​

Where is the Law of God in the Temple? It is in the Most Holy Place, within the Ark of the Covenant, Deuteronomy 10:2 KJB, etc.

Jesus stated that He was the Temple, John 2:19; Revelation 21:22 KJB.

Therefore, the "Ark" is a symbolic representation of the Heart of Jesus, the Heart of Israel, the Heart of God. In that "Ark" of His Heart, is His Character, His Law, see previous Exodus verses.

Thus out of the abundance of His heart, He magnified the Law and made it honourable.
It is no skin off my teeth if you insist on believing something that is not the case at all. Belittling God by telling others that the character of God is the 10 commandments is yours and of course your prophet's to contend. I stand by my former post to you.
 
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Bob S

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See what I mean. Literally foaming at the mouth to mention her name every chance they get. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth 'foameth' ...
Absolutely, I will mention her at every opportunity. She was a fake along with those who used her as their puppet.
 
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Bob S

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See what I mean. Literally foaming at the mouth to mention her name every chance they get. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth 'foameth' ...
I know you would like for us to stop mentioning her because for the most part she IS such an embarrassment.
 
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klutedavid

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Well that is not true.

THE Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G1378; ORDINANCE; δόγμα; dogma;
dog'-mah From the base of G1380; a law; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical: - decree, ordinance.

The CONTEXT of COL 2 is the CEREMONIAL laws in relation to CIRCUMCISION and SHADOW laws and the reason for adding this to the OP was to show COL 2 is not talking about the 10 Commandments as being SHADOW laws but the SHADOW laws in ORDINANCES were from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT.

This is what COL 2 is discussing hence the GREEK dictionaries use of ORDINANCE which means the CIVIL, CEREMONIAL of ECCLESIASTICAL laws which is in reference to the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT and the SHADOW laws for remission of sin which is the CONEXT and subject matter of COL 2.

Hope this helps.
You have a faulty interpretation of the verse (Colossians 2:14)

G1378
doctrine, decree, ordinance.

Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of [doctrine, decree, ordinances] that was against us...

Why do you prefer the translation of G1378, 'ordinances'?

I prefer, 'decrees', simply because they were against us. Ordinances may or may not be against us, for example; the laws of the priesthood are certainly not against us.

Further, the following information is incorrect.

"δόγμα dógma, dog'-mah; from the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical):—decree, ordinance."

I don't know how this was printed in the Strong's Greek Lexicon?
Neither 'dogma' or G1380, are in anyway connected to civil or ceremonial law.
 
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The7thColporteur

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In your opening post you wrote the following paragraph.

Now your going to have to concentrate on what you wrote above.

You said, 'From the base of G1380; which means; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law'.

If you did your research on that statement above, you should have checked the meaning of G1380?

The meaning of the Greek word, G1380, is certainly not civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical.

Here is the meaning of the Greek word G1380.

The KJV translates Strong's G1380 in the following manner: think (33x), seem (13x), suppose (7x), seem good (3x), please (2x), miscellaneous (5x).

You need to reply with the corrected version of that paragraph, so that I can continue reading your opening post!
The words "cheirografon toiV dogmasin" never mean "certificate of debt" in scripture [and that is not a literal equivalency, and even more than a 'dynamic', but truly someone's own private [incorrect] paraphrase]

cheirografon – G5498 N-ASN

toiV – G3588 T-DPN

dogmasin – G1378 N-DPN​

The word "cheirografon" literally means "cheiro" [hand] & "grafon" [writing]:

See "cheiro" [translated as “hand” 89 times or “hands” 90 times, per KJC] - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G5495&t=KJB

See "grafon" [translated as “written” 121 times, or “write” 50 times, or “wrote” 21 times, or “describeth” 1 time or “writing” 1 time, per KJC] - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1125&t=KJB

And do not merely take any concordance definition, but simply utilize the concordance to look at all the Bible passages to see how the word is defined and used in scripture itself [as per Isaiah 28:10; 1 Corinthians 2:13 KJB, etc].

The word "toiV" can have several uses in scripture [KJB], and in this instance means "of" - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3588&t=KJB

The word "dogmasin" literally means "dogma" [see Websters 1828 for helpful def., but always remember to define scripture by scripture] which comes to be:

[1] "decrees" [Luke 2:1; Acts 16:4, 17:7] and,

[2] "ordinances" [Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:14] - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1378&t=KJB

The related word in the very same passage of Colossians 2, is "dogmatizesthe":

Colossians 2:20 KJB Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,​

Yet we know that the Ten Commandments are not of this earth/world, not carnal, but of Heaven, spiritual:

Exodus 20:22 KJB And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

Romans 7:14 KJB For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.​

These are the carnal ordinances, even the law of commandments in ordinances, even the handwritten ordinances [by Moses] imposed upon Israel back in the books of Moses. It is not anyone ones sins here, for these "ordinances" were for the "worldly sanctuary" to do its service, and for sacrifices, etc, see also Ezekiel 43:18

And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; These [are] the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon. Ezekiel 43:18​

Luke 1:6 makes mention again of these, as other passages:

Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

Numbers 9:12 "They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it."

2 Chronicles 33:8 "... take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses."​

These refer to things, even as found in Numbers 9:3 KJB

Numbers 9:3 KJB In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, ye shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it.​

In fact, when looking at the context of Colossians 2, in the handwritten [by Moses] “ordinances” thereof, we read nothing of the Ten Commandments, but only of things pertaining to the earthly sanctuary and its services, in carnal things, that came afterwards under the Levitical priesthood.

See also for further detail:
 
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klutedavid

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The words "cheirografon toiV dogmasin" never mean "certificate of debt" in scripture [and that is not a literal equivalency, and even more than a 'dynamic', but truly someone's own private [incorrect] paraphrase]

cheirografon – G5498 N-ASN

toiV – G3588 T-DPN

dogmasin – G1378 N-DPN​

The word "cheirografon" literally means "cheiro" [hand] & "grafon" [writing]:

See "cheiro" [translated as “hand” 89 times or “hands” 90 times, per KJC] - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G5495&t=KJB

See "grafon" [translated as “written” 121 times, or “write” 50 times, or “wrote” 21 times, or “describeth” 1 time or “writing” 1 time, per KJC] - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1125&t=KJB

And do not merely take any concordance definition, but simply utilize the concordance to look at all the Bible passages to see how the word is defined and used in scripture itself [as per Isaiah 28:10; 1 Corinthians 2:13 KJB, etc].

The word "toiV" can have several uses in scripture [KJB], and in this instance means "of" - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3588&t=KJB

The word "dogmasin" literally means "dogma" [see Websters 1828 for helpful def., but always remember to define scripture by scripture] which comes to be:

[1] "decrees" [Luke 2:1; Acts 16:4, 17:7] and,

[2] "ordinances" [Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:14] - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1378&t=KJB

The related word in the very same passage of Colossians 2, is "dogmatizesthe":

Colossians 2:20 KJB Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,​

Yet we know that the Ten Commandments are not of this earth/world, not carnal, but of Heaven, spiritual:

Exodus 20:22 KJB And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

Romans 7:14 KJB For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.​

These are the carnal ordinances, even the law of commandments in ordinances, even the handwritten ordinances [by Moses] imposed upon Israel back in the books of Moses. It is not anyone ones sins here, for these "ordinances" were for the "worldly sanctuary" to do its service, and for sacrifices, etc, see also Ezekiel 43:18

And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; These [are] the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon. Ezekiel 43:18​

Luke 1:6 makes mention again of these, as other passages:

Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

Numbers 9:12 "They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it."

2 Chronicles 33:8 "... take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses."​

These refer to things, even as found in Numbers 9:3 KJB

Numbers 9:3 KJB In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, ye shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it.​

In fact, when looking at the context of Colossians 2, in the handwritten [by Moses] “ordinances” thereof, we read nothing of the Ten Commandments, but only of things pertaining to the earthly sanctuary and its services, in carnal things, that came afterwards under the Levitical priesthood.

See also for further detail:
How about using a few modern translations.

The KJV is not the best translation in print, it is an old translation, Biblical scholars do not use the KJV.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You have a faulty interpretation of the verse (Colossians 2:14)
G1378 doctrine, decree, ordinance. Further, the following information is incorrect.

"δόγμα dógma, dog'-mah; from the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical):—decree, ordinance."

I don't know how this was printed in the Strong's Greek Lexicon?
Neither 'dogma' or G1380, are in anyway connected to civil or ceremonial law.

Not at all. I believe the translations used in this thread agree with the 200+ supporting scriptures from the 5x part OP and that is why it was added.

For example...

1. Strong's; Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, James Strong
ORDINANCE - G1378
δόγμα
dogma
dog'-mah
From the base of G1380; a law; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical: - decree, ordinance.

2. Mickelsons Enhanced Strong's Dictionary of the Hebrew and Greek Testaments.
ORDINANCE -G1378 δόγμα dogma (d̮og'-ma) n.
1. that which is supposed as good or which seems right (whether it actually is or not).
2. concisely an opinion on a matter.
3. by conclusion a decree or ordinance; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical.
[from the base of G1380]
KJV: decree, ordinance Root(s): G1380 See also: G1379

So you are incorrect on this matter.

How about using a few modern translations. The KJV is not the best translation in print, it is an old translation, Biblical scholars do not use the KJV.

The KJV version is just fine thanks. Although in my own personal study I look at multiple translations including the original greek and hebrew. Personally, I do not think there is any "Best" translation or at least not that I am aware of but I trust God to be my teacher as we all should.

Even if you wanted to take that translation out from this OP, it makes no difference as the scripture still translates as "LAWS IN ORDINANCES" not the 10 Commandments.

The KJV translation actually does a great job here and fits very nicely with the 200+ supporting scriptures of the 5x PART OP started on page 1 of this thread.

.
 
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The7thColporteur

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How about using a few modern translations.

The KJV is not the best translation in print, it is an old translation, Biblical scholars do not use the KJV.
Ol' Canard. Tell me another one - KJV Bible Vindicated

Just for you:

Try staying on OP.
 
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Marco70

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GALATIANS 2:17-18 [17], But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. [18], For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.



.
Lets explain the above verses accurately.

We know the believer is saved even when they are dead in transgressions(Eph2:5) For if you are made alive with Christ you are in a saved state. All you have to do to be saved, is repent and ask Christ into your life as Lord and saviour of it. Unfortunately, some cannot see past the letter itself, so do not understand the practical outworking of the Gospel.
Paul is speaking in the above of a new convert, seeking to be justified in their new found Christianity, in respect of crossing over from being a slave of sin, to a slave of righteousness which leads to holiness(rom 6:17&18) This crossing over takes time. Some sin you can immediately cease at the point of conversion, but other sin, you may have been a slave to for years, if not decades and such sin is not so simple to deal with. Paul states in the previous verses to the ones quoted, the Christian is justified by faith in Christ, for by observing the law, no one will be justified. They trust in Christ to get them to where they need to be(to cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness.)
Paul states if while we seek this justification it becomes evident we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Why does he ask the question: 'Does Christ promote sin.' Well many do not understand the true Gospel message. They may see a new convert, with glaring sin in their life in a church worshipping and praising God for their new found Christianity. And anyone who does not understand the message, may then wonder: 'If this man can truly be in a saved state Christ must promote sin.' Hence why Paul asks the question. What such a person does not understand however, is the new convert hates the sin they are still bound by, but they are entitled to praise God for what he has done for them in Christ and praise him for that, otherwise they must go around in sackcloth and ashes until they are as pure as the driven snow.
After Paul asks the question, he immediately answers it: Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove I am a lawbreaker(niv)
What has Paul so earnestly sought to destroy(and is the context of what he wrote in the previous verses?) You cannot be justified by observing the law. Therefore, if Paul rebuilt justification of observing the law/strive to defeat the sin in order to be justified before God, he would fail and simply prove he was a lawbreaker/sinner

The problem with only being able to quote the letter is, you then end up with faulty understanding of it
 
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Lets explain the above verses accurately.

We know the believer is saved even when they are dead in transgressions(Eph2:5) For if you are made alive with Christ you are in a saved state. All you have to do to be saved, is repent and ask Christ into your life as Lord and saviour of it. Unfortunately, some cannot see past the letter itself, so do not understand the practical outworking of the Gospel.
Paul is speaking in the above of a new convert, seeking to be justified in their new found Christianity, in respect of crossing over from being a slave of sin, to a slave of righteousness which leads to holiness(rom 6:17&18) This crossing over takes time. Some sin you can immediately cease at the point of conversion, but other sin, you may have been a slave to for years, if not decades and such sin is not so simple to deal with. Paul states in the previous verses to the ones quoted, the Christian is justified by faith in Christ, for by observing the law, no one will be justified. They trust in Christ to get them to where they need to be(to cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness.)
Paul states if while we seek this justification it becomes evident we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Why does he ask the question: 'Does Christ promote sin.' Well many do not understand the true Gospel message. They may see a new convert, with glaring sin in their life in a church worshipping and praising God for their new found Christianity. And anyone who does not understand the message, may then wonder: 'If this man can truly be in a saved state Christ must promote sin.' Hence why Paul asks the question. What such a person does not understand however, is the new convert hates the sin they are still bound by, but they are entitled to praise God for what he has done for them in Christ and praise him for that, otherwise they must go around in sackcloth and ashes until they are as pure as the driven snow.
After Paul asks the question, he immediately answers it: Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove I am a lawbreaker(niv)
What has Paul so earnestly sought to destroy(and is the context of what he wrote in the previous verses?) You cannot be justified by observing the law. Therefore, if Paul rebuilt justification of observing the law/strive to defeat the sin in order to be justified before God, he would fail and simply prove he was a lawbreaker/sinner

The problem with only being able to quote the letter is, you then end up with faulty understanding of it

Hi Marco, all I see is your words over God's WORD again.

Did you wish to reply to the earlier post with all the scripture in it that disagrees with your teaching that you can continue in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN and still be in a saved state before God?

God's WORD disagrees with you; linked CLICK ME

I see you have just ignored the post and the scriptures in it that disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures. If you cannot reply, like I do with your posts, it only shows your in error.

Let me know when you have some scripture to share. :)
 
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