Cocoon and butterfly

[Paidiske]

A reflection on Luther's doctrine of simul iustus et peccator and what that might have to offer how we think about worship. I found it thought provoking and worth sharing.

Luther and the Eschatological Boundaries of Worship | Reformed Worship

 

[jimmyjimmy]

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[Zoii]

I'm getting used to US terminology. You see in Australia if you are liberal then your quite conservative. Seems to be the reverse in the US. JimmyJimmy I'm not sure though why this story implies that its people with "liberal" views that are the problem? And although I get the point of the story, how do you judge when and when not to help. I do some volunteer work at a women's refuge for example (nothing fancy - I just show them around and help clean and odd jobs).

 

[jimmyjimmy]

.

 

[JackRT]

The butterfly story above is very VERY personal to my wife and I. In her early teens one of our daughters slipped into mental illness --- severe clinical depression punctuated by terrifying psychotic episodes. These included a nearly successful suicide attempt and attacking me with a knife. My wife and I said to each other that if she ever emerged from this it would be like the metamorphosis of a caterpillar into a butterfly. We promised each other that if this ever happened we would each get a butterfly tattoo. We have those tattoos today and the butterfly motif is throughout our home. She has now completed her education, is very well employed, married to a wonderful man and has given us a grandson.

Here's to our butterfly!!

 

[Paidiske]

Firstly, it raises the hair on the back of my nest that Liberals are the most conservative people in Australia.

Politically speaking. The Liberal Party is the party of small(er) government, social conservatism, and economic liberalism. As I understand it they are roughly analogous to American Republicans. (Which means in Australia you have to make the distinction between being a Liberal and being a liberal, which often mean quite different things).

Our other major party is the Labor Party, the party of the unions and the working class, of social progressivism and more government control of the economy. I gather they're closer to the position of the American Democrats. (Although of course in both cases the comparison to American parties is not saying they're the same in all respects).

However, none of this is relevant to the metaphor of cocoon and butterfly as referenced in the article in the OP, which had to do with eschatology rather than personal experience. Without wanting to dismiss what's been shared on a personal level, I'd be really interested in responses to the ideas in the article I shared.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

A reflection on Luther's doctrine of simul iustus et peccator and what that might have to offer how we think about worship. I found it thought provoking and worth sharing.

Luther and the Eschatological Boundaries of Worship | Reformed Worship

The article struck me as an apt criticism of the happy-clappy sort of vacuous worship one sees at some megachurches which is effectively a glorified rock concert. Not wanting to sound too disdainful; you have no idea how much I dislike the trend towards that form of worship, which lacks any real sense of repentance or mystery or reverence.

 

[Anguspure]

A reflection on Luther's doctrine of simul iustus et peccator and what that might have to offer how we think about worship. I found it thought provoking and worth sharing.

Luther and the Eschatological Boundaries of Worship | Reformed Worship

As a person who considers worship more in the context of the way in which life is lived, rather than in terms of a Church service, and given that we are called by the Spirit to live as imitators of Christ; then it is His life lived that provides the boundary for worship.

One thing I've noticed that we often miss in Protestant or Evangelical circles is the role of suffering, and that the way in which we suffer may also offer glory to our King, not because suffering is a good thing but because in imitation of the Master we lower ourselves to live fully in this fallen world so that by identifying with it for His sake, He might gather the lost to Him.

Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin....
Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And,


“If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,

what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”

So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.(1 Peter 4)

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Politically speaking. The Liberal Party is the party of small(er) government, social conservatism, and economic liberalism. As I understand it they are roughly analogous to American Republicans. (Which means in Australia you have to make the distinction between being a Liberal and being a liberal, which often mean quite different things).

Our other major party is the Labor Party, the party of the unions and the working class, of social progressivism and more government control of the economy. I gather they're closer to the position of the American Democrats. (Although of course in both cases the comparison to American parties is not saying they're the same in all respects).

However, none of this is relevant to the metaphor of cocoon and butterfly as referenced in the article in the OP, which had to do with eschatology rather than personal experience. Without wanting to dismiss what's been shared on a personal level, I'd be really interested in responses to the ideas in the article I shared.

The article is good, but superfluous.

The Bible has built-in protection against either extreme. Teaching, and singing (psalms), through it guarantees coverage of the highest pinnacle of optimistic praise and the lowest valley of lament.

Also, the Christ-Centered church is constantly reminded that we are more loved than we ever dared hope and more sinful than we ever can imagine.

The gospel protects us from thinking too highly of ourselves because Christ had to die for us, and it prevents us from despair because He wanted to.

“The gospel is this: We are more sinful and flawed in ourselves than we ever dared believe, yet at the very same time we are more loved and accepted in Jesus Christ than we ever dared hope.” - Tim Keller

 

[Greg J.]

I prefer to think about the human dual nature as Paul was in this passage:

Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. (1 Corinthians 5:7, 1984 NIV)

In other words, the truth is how God sees us, and there is some sort of deception (due to lack of faith) involved in every other perspective. Since we are reborn in Christ, the nature of who "we really are" is no longer descended from Adam. It is pure, sinless, and untainted as a child of God. It is right to assert that who we really are is that person in Christ, and then explain why we see and experience evidence that we are sinful (and what we need to do about it. Our moral accountability extends into what we genuinely believe [in case it seems like I'm saying we are completely free from sin; Paul draws the distinction of "who we really are" vs. "our flesh"]).

I believe the truth of who we are as new creations should be preached to every Christian, however, how we reconcile that with our apparently sinful selves needs to be customized to the individual. It is harmful to insist to a new believer that in God's eyes, they are not sinful beings, whereas a spiritually mature person may need an occasional reminder that they are not sinful beings with an entirely different effect. It is God who reconciles our apparent difference in natures. Our job is to do what he said so that is accomplished according to our will (be obedient).

As such, I believe our worship should reflect that, and from what I've seen it generally does. We have all kinds of hymns that affirm the incredible blessing of God's various gifts/graces to us as well as laments about our weaknesses. (Worship from the heart, other than through hymns, are probably represented by the gamut of hymn lyrics.)

People at different times can feel like they are being a hypocrite or be upset about the lyrics of a hymn because their current perspective of God and themselves is not in line with them. But I think it is always true that: we are sinless in Christ, but we war against ourselves (as we should) because we continue to commit sins. But the war is against being deceived (which stems from a lack of faith). At first it is against the deceptions in what we believe about God and ourselves. Later it is against oppression that seeks to undermine our knowledge of the truth and our faith in God.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Teaching, and singing (psalms)

A capella exclusive psalmody?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

A capella exclusive psalmody?

No.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

No.

Good.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Good.

I'm vehemently opposed to it.

 

[Paidiske]

To singing psalms a cappella?

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I'm vehemently opposed to it.

Good. I particularly dislike the approach that dogmatizes lining-out.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

To singing psalms a cappella?

A capella exclusive psalmody is an approach of some, for example, Covenanting Presbyterians, which bans all church music, including the evangelical canticles, except for the Psalms. If you encounter a church whose main symbol is a banner saying "For Christ's Crown and Covenant," they doubtless are opposed to the use of music other than Psalms in addition to both the Jacobean restoration in 1660 and the later Glorious Revolution.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

To singing psalms a cappella?

There are some groups who only allow the a cappella singing of Psalms in worship, considering anything else sinful.

I strongly disagree with that stance, although I am a conservative Presbyterian.

 

[Paidiske]

I don't think we have many folks like that in Australia, although I have heard similar accounts from a lecturer of mine who was born in Scotland.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I don't think we have many folks like that in Australia, although I have heard similar accounts from a lecturer of mine who was born in Scotland.

There are some in the US as well, like the RPCNA. I have their Psalter. However their music lags well behind the tradition of Anglican Chant as far as singing the Psalter goes.