Co-Redemptrix/Mediatrix?

[AMM]

Peace be with you all.
I have heard that the Orthodox reject the papist doctrine of Mary as a co-redeemer or co-mediatrix between God and Man. However, some Orthodox prayers seem to view Mary as the/a source for our salvation. Can you all elaborate on these prayers and help me understand? Am I interpreting this correctly (that Mary does play a role in our salvation) or misreading something?

Examples:
Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Mother of God:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
but rescue us from dangers
only pure, only blessed one.

O most holy Lady, Theotokos, light of my darkened soul, my hope, protection, refuge, consolation, my joy; I thank thee that thou hast vouchsafed me, who am unworthy, to be a partaker of the most pure Body and precious Blood of thy Son. O thou who gavest birth to the True Light, do thou enlighten the spiritual eyes of my heart; thou who gavest birth to the Source of Immortality, revive me who am dead in sin; thou who art the lovingly-compassionate Mother of the merciful God, have mercy on me and grant me compunction and contrition in my heart, and humility in my thoughts, and the recall of my thoughts from captivity. And vouchsafe me until my last breath to receive without condemnation the sanctification of the most pure Mysteries for the healing of soul and body; and grant me tears of repentance and confession, that I may hymn and glorify thee all the days of my life, for blessed and most glorified art thou unto the ages. Amen.

Most holy Theotokos, save us!

(And others.) Thanks for the help!

 

[ArmyMatt]

simply put, she, being Christ's mother, has a unique closeness to her Son, and therefore her prayers are very powerful before Him. as a Jew Who perfectly fulfills the Law, He honors His Mother. it was her flesh that He made His own to save us.

now, that being said, she is still just a creature and therefore never prays for anything apart from His Will.

 

[mcarmichael]

I read an article from an Orthodox magazine that it is due to her actual Theosis and glorification.
I hope that helps.

 

[AMM]

simply put, she, being Christ's mother, has a unique closeness to her Son, and therefore her prayers are very powerful before Him. as a Jew Who perfectly fulfills the Law, He honors His Mother. it was her flesh that He made His own to save us.

now, that being said, she is still just a creature and therefore never prays for anything apart from His Will.

Hmm, I guess that makes sense for us to ask her to intercede (e.g. "Most Holy Theotokos, pray for us") but I don't understand how that connects to asking her to save us specifically. Additionally, as you say at the end, if she only prays in accord with His Will, then what benefit is there in asking her to pray for us? (I know these are kind of just generic protestant questions... I do believe that the saints can hear us, and that they pray for us, but there's just something that I can't understand "why"... Maybe this is just part of the mystery of prayer.)

I read an article from an Orthodox magazine that it is due to her actual Theosis and glorification.
I hope that helps.

Would that apply to all the saints? I was under the impression that all saints achieve theosis when they die. So could we also say "Saint Barnabas, save us", for example?

 

[ArmyMatt]

St Paul says he has become all things to all men so he might save some. so there is no issue with God using her to save others.

as far as why ask her at all, using that logic, why ask anyone for prayers? God is love, which means He uses Mary's love for us in His plan of salvation

 

[mcarmichael]

Yeah, sort of.

 

[mcarmichael]

Would that apply to all the saints? I was under the impression that all saints achieve theosis when they die. So could we also say "Saint Barnabas, save us", for example?

Well, yes and no. Only Mary has received a physical resurrection, however you might say that all of the saints have already been resurrected, according to my understanding. So, touche'!

 

[All4Christ]

Well, yes and no. Only Mary has received a physical resurrection, however you might say that all of the saints have already been resurrected, according to my understanding. So, touche'!

No, the saints haven't experienced the bodily resurrection...not until the final judgment.

 

[AMM]

No, the saints haven't experienced the bodily resurrection...not until the final judgment.

Wait... so why do we ask them to intercede at all? If the it depends on the resurrection, then that would only be Mary and Christ. I think I must be missing something.

 

[All4Christ]

Wait... so why do we ask them to intercede at all? If the it depends on the resurrection, then that would only be Mary and Christ. I think I must be missing something.

I believe the Lutheran Church also teaches about the particular judgment, correct? It is along those same lines. The saints are alive in Christ but they won't be reunited with their glorified physical bodies until the final judgment.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yeah, sort of.

whaddya mean?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Wait... so why do we ask them to intercede at all? If the it depends on the resurrection, then that would only be Mary and Christ. I think I must be missing something.

simply put, because Christ rose from the dead, He eradicated all barriers. so you and I come before Him in worship with all the righteous. it is because of the resurrection of the Lord that the prayers of the saints are so powerful. we enter into that reality in Church, which is why the Liturgy begins with the priest proclaiming blessed is the Kingdom. when you come to Church, Mary the Mother of God, Moses, St Peter, etc are all worshiping beside and with you

 

[mcarmichael]

Wait... so why do we ask them to intercede at all? If the it depends on the resurrection, then that would only be Mary and Christ. I think I must be missing something.

Yeah, I don't know. "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be." (1 John)

 

[FenderTL5]

simply put, because Christ rose from the dead, He eradicated all barriers. so you and I come before Him in worship with all the righteous. it is because of the resurrection of the Lord that the prayers of the saints are so powerful. we enter into that reality in Church, which is why the Liturgy begins with the priest proclaiming blessed is the Kingdom. when you come to Church, Mary the Mother of God, Moses, St Peter, etc are all worshiping beside and with you

What a beautiful depiction of worship that is severely lacking in many other traditions.

"Blessed is the Kingdom.."

"..you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel."

 

[ArmyMatt]

What a beautiful depiction of worship that is severely lacking in many other traditions.

"Blessed is the Kingdom.."

"..you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel."

yep, that's also why it's Christ IS risen, not Christ WAS risen

 

[AMM]

I believe the Lutheran Church also teaches about the particular judgment, correct? It is along those same lines. The saints are alive in Christ but they won't be reunited with their glorified physical bodies until the final judgment.

We do distinguish between the particular and final/general judgment. So why then do you say that the saints can hear us? If they do not have a physical body (because their souls and bodies are temporarily separated) then with what do they hear? It seems like it would almost be gnostic to say that they don't need their bodies and ears to hear, since their soul is good enough...

simply put, because Christ rose from the dead, He eradicated all barriers. so you and I come before Him in worship with all the righteous. it is because of the resurrection of the Lord that the prayers of the saints are so powerful.

What do you mean by "eradicated all barriers"? For example I can't pray to my friend in Germany and ask him to intercede for me in the same way that I can, in theory, pray to St. Basil. So that's one barrier... does that make sense? I'm having trouble understanding and articulating my thoughts.
I agree that "The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working" (Jas 5:16)

we enter into that reality in Church, which is why the Liturgy begins with the priest proclaiming blessed is the Kingdom. when you come to Church, Mary the Mother of God, Moses, St Peter, etc are all worshiping beside and with you

This is the Lutheran understanding, too. We just disapprove of invoking the saints because:
"But the Scripture teaches not the invocation of saints or to ask help of saints, since it sets before us the one Christ as the Mediator, Propitiation, High Priest, and Intercessor. He is to be prayed to, and has promised that He will hear our prayer; and this worship He approves above all, to wit, that in all afflictions He be called upon, 1 John 2:1 'If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father,' etc."
(Note: I'm not attempting to turn this into a debate but if anyone cares to offer a response to this claim here from the Augsburg confession, I wouldn't complain)

But everything else is how we understand the Communion of Saints. For example, it's why in many sanctuaries the rail around the altar forms a semi-circle (and never more). When we partake of the Eucharist, the saints in heaven are on the other side, completing the circle of the throng that surrounds the Lamb who was slain and sits on the throne. We also sing the Sanctus (I'm not sure if that's just a Western tradition or not), and the priest prefaces it with "Therefore with angels and archangels and all the company of heaven, we laud and magnify your glorious name, ever more praising you and saying: 'Holy! Holy! Holy!...'"

What a beautiful depiction of worship that is severely lacking in many other traditions.

"Blessed is the Kingdom.."

"..you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel."

That is beautiful. Is that in every Orthodox liturgy?

yep, that's also why it's Christ IS risen, not Christ WAS risen

It's also why Lutherans say we ARE baptized not we WERE baptized

 

[FenderTL5]

That is beautiful. Is that in every Orthodox liturgy?

We can thank the author of Hebrews (chapter 12) for that.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What do you mean by "eradicated all barriers"? For example I can't pray to my friend in Germany and ask him to intercede for me in the same way that I can, in theory, pray to St. Basil. So that's one barrier... does that make sense? I'm having trouble understanding and articulating my thoughts.
I agree that "The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working" (Jas 5:16)

no you can for your friend. since Christ is everywhere present and filling all things with Himself, when you go before Him in prayer, and your friend does, you stand invisibly present with him.

This is the Lutheran understanding, too. We just disapprove of invoking the saints because:
"But the Scripture teaches not the invocation of saints or to ask help of saints, since it sets before us the one Christ as the Mediator, Propitiation, High Priest, and Intercessor. He is to be prayed to, and has promised that He will hear our prayer; and this worship He approves above all, to wit, that in all afflictions He be called upon, 1 John 2:1 'If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father,' etc."
(Note: I'm not attempting to turn this into a debate but if anyone cares to offer a response to this claim here from the Augsburg confession, I wouldn't complain)

it actually does in 2 Maccabees. the prophet Jeremiah is shown to intercede for the Jews and they pray to him. also, the rich man petitions Abraham in the parable, not God, and gets an answer from Abraham. Abraham does not rebuke him for asking this. and we see at the wedding at Cana, the servants go to Mary, then to Christ after she goes to Christ. saints intercession is quietly there. not only that, but Christians from the beginning have prayed to the saints. their intercession is only possible because of Christ's mediation.

It's also why Lutherans say we ARE baptized not we WERE baptized

yup

 

[AMM]

no you can for your friend. since Christ is everywhere present and filling all things with Himself, when you go before Him in prayer, and your friend does, you stand invisibly present with him.

Huh. I've never heard this before. It's a little mind-blowing, in the best possible way... So you view asking others to intercede for us as primarily a confession of Christ's victory and destruction of all boundaries to the spiritual life?

it actually does in 2 Maccabees. the prophet Jeremiah is shown to intercede for the Jews and they pray to him. also, the rich man petitions Abraham in the parable, not God, and gets an answer from Abraham. Abraham does not rebuke him for asking this. and we see at the wedding at Cana, the servants go to Mary, then to Christ after she goes to Christ. saints intercession is quietly there. not only that, but Christians from the beginning have prayed to the saints. their intercession is only possible because of Christ's mediation.

Regarding Maccabees, if I remember correctly, it teaches that the saints do pray for us, but does not describe their invocation. Is that correct? In the defense of the augsburg confession, we agree that the saints pray for us, but not that we should ask them to pray:

Although concerning the saints we concede that, just as, when alive, they pray for the Church universal in general, so in heaven they pray for the Church in general, albeit no testimony concerning the praying of the dead is extant in the Scriptures, except the dream taken from the Second Book of Maccabees, 15:14.

Moreover, even supposing that the saints pray for the Church ever so much, yet it does not follow that they are to be invoked; although our Confession affirms only this, that Scripture does not teach the invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. But since neither a command, nor a promise, nor an example can be produced from the Scriptures concerning the invocation of saints, it follows that conscience can have nothing concerning this invocation that is certain.

Regarding the Rich man and Lazarus story: I was initially going to point out that the situation is different for them - the rich man is in Hades, Abraham and Lazarus are in heaven (is that still the correct term for the old covenant/pre-resurrection saints?). So it doesn't necessarily apply to us.
...but then I realized that the current, post-resurrection situation is far superior to the pre-resurrection state. And being alive on earth (us) is superior to being in hades (rich man). And being in heaven awaiting the resurrection (the saints) is superior to being in heaven pre-resurrection of Christ (Abraham and Lazarus). So my gut reaction doesn't make much sense lol
This is the first time someone has used this passage to support invocation, but it seems like a pretty strong argument. Especially because I've heard some people claim that this is not actually a parable, but an actual real story that Jesus is telling...

Regarding intercession at Cana, I guess that's true. But in the end Mary directs them to Christ, so wouldn't we suppose she'd do the same now and would prefer us to go to him?

It does have an ancient precedent, which I think was less known at the time of the reformation (I just read an article about a new tablet that was discovered from the 2nd or 3rd century that had an invocation of Mary - I think it was the earliest example of this that has been found), so in the Apology, Melanchthon wrote "For when they cite the example of the Church, it is evident that this is a new custom in the Church; for although the old prayers make mention of the saints, yet they do not invoke the saints" -- we now know this to be false.

I also wonder how matters such as this would have resulted if the reformation were in the east and not the west. Because a big aspect that the reformers were arguing against here was the applying the merits of the saints to us -- which the east rejects too simply because y'all don't understand salvation primarily as the the juridicial, "merit"-based situation.

 

[prodromos]

We ask the Saints to pray for us because we have long experienced the benefits of doing so. There is nothing theoretical about the intercessions of the Saints in the Orthodox Church. We generally don't bother trying to justify it from Scripture anymore than trying to justify breathing in and out from Scripture.
We ask their prayers and we experience the results of their prayers. God obviously approves of the practice because of the superabundance of miracles which have occured as a result of their prayers. Honestly, there is no comparison to the extent of miracles in the Protestant Churches.