CNN: Let's Get Real About Abortion

[Fantine]

No surprise here--they agree with me that the punitive model, while it may make the self-righteous feel even more self-righteous by making mothers bear the natural consequences of their 'sins,' often while the fathers get off scot-free, is not the most effective policy.

As a general rule, societies that do the most to support mothers and child-bearing have the fewest abortions. Societies that do the least to support mothers and child-bearing have more abortions.
Germany, for example, operates perhaps the world's plushest welfare state. Working women receive 14 weeks of maternity leave, during which time they receive pay from the state. The state pays a child allowance to the parents of every German child for potentially as many as 25 years, depending on how long as the child remains in school. Women who leave the work force after giving birth receive a replacement wage from the state for up to 14 months.
Maybe not coincidentally, Germany has one of the lowest abortion rates, about one-third that of the United States.

Further down in the article, it talks about the increase in abortion in the Netherlands when immigrants from patriarchal cultures moved in.

They chose abortion because they had become sexually active within male-dominated immigrant subcultures in which access to birth control was restricted, in which female sexuality was tightly policed, in which girls who become pregnant outside marriage are disgraced and in which the costs and obligations of childbearing loaded almost entirely on women alone.

I never really associated patriarchal subcultures with increases in abortion. Hmmm...

Let's get real about abortions - CNN.com

 

[FullyMT]

I thought it was a good article which stressed the both/and nature, we can limit abortions and help women. (But, gasp, this may require "big government" to intervene by providing social services, or making sure all businesses offer maternity leave to women!)

 

[WarriorAngel]

Teaching abstinence - is the only absolute.
Sometimes these threads seem to promote BC in the Catholic section that we know is not allowable.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Wow, the whole audience on CNN has just checked in. LOL If a tree falls in the woods, and no-one hears it, Did it fall ?

 

[Root of Jesse]

I thought it was a good article which stressed the both/and nature, we can limit abortions and help women. (But, gasp, this may require "big government" to intervene by providing social services, or making sure all businesses offer maternity leave to women!)

By law, businesses must provide maternity leave to women.

Not so long ago, it was the Church that provided services to unwed mothers.

 

[FullyMT]

By law, businesses must provide maternity leave to women.

Not so long ago, it was the Church that provided services to unwed mothers.

Sorry, I meant to speak towards quality (paid/not) and length of maternity leave. The USA has the shortest of most developed nations...
How The Zero Weeks Of Paid Maternity Leave In The U.S. Compare Globally | ThinkProgress

 

[Fantine]

Well over half of all abortions performed on teenagers in the Netherlands are performed on girls of non-Dutch origins.
These girls and women weren't being raped. They weren't selecting for the sex of their child. They chose abortion because they had become sexually active within male-dominated immigrant subcultures in which access to birth control was restricted, in which female sexuality was tightly policed, in which girls who become pregnant outside marriage are disgraced and in which the costs and obligations of childbearing loaded almost entirely on women alone.

One of my biggest concerns if Roe v. Wade is overturned or if a human life amendment is passed is how pregnant women will be treated afterwards.

From everything I've seen, most pro-lifers don't approve of the behavior and lifestyles of unwed mothers, but darn it, they've gotta be nice to them because they have a commodity the pro-lifers need....

And while they might prefer that there be a law banning abortions so that thes unwed mothers could be treated the way they deserve to be treated, they're stuck being kind and dispensing Pampers.

Here in the Bible Belt (sigh) I see this attitude among the evangelicals. They go scouring neighborhoods looking for poor and unsaved youth. They feed them and give them school supplies and take them to Bible school, and the moms appreciate it because they're overwhelmed and overburdened.....

And when the kids aren't around the evangelicals bad mouth their parents and talk about how these kids would never learn about Jesus if they weren't scavenging around apartment complexes looking for them.

 

[holyorders]

Fact:

In Nazi Germany, to abort "aryan" unborn children was punishable by death.

Fact:

Abortion was "perfected" (with the help of Margaret Sanger) in Nazi Germany as a means to control the undesirables.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Fact:

In Nazi Germany, to abort "aryan" unborn children was punishable by death.

Fact:

Abortion was "perfected" (with the help of Margaret Sanger) in Nazi Germany as a means to control the undesirables.

True.

And for the question if Roe v Wade is over turned - it will go back to how things were before RvW. That's not even a concern.

In fact, unwed mothers usually gave up their children if they couldnt marry someone.
However; i think getting rid of RvW would probably provide women with a more discerning self respect and not have sex with every guy they want.

Times have changed - i see how bad it is now. It's worse than i remember and i thot things were bad when i was growing up - no one seems to abstain. No one cares - and sin - pffft. Because abortion on demand is readily available - ppl are throwing their souls away for a 5 minute fix.
Because there is no love in it - ppl changing partners [discarding them] like used underwear.

Yah, BC and abortion has changed the mind set of all ppl. Even women are ok with things as they are ...being used and thrown away.
No one loves anymore. Married ppl are having affairs and no one blinks.
No one cares.

It's really bad. Working where i do - and hearing the teens talk - and how they sleep over their bf's place and such - i am speechless. Even those who believe in Jesus - just dont care.

I would say abortion and BC brought us the worst of the worst sins - and now ppl think we cannot go back to morality.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

One of my biggest concerns if Roe v. Wade is overturned or if a human life amendment is passed is how pregnant women will be treated afterwards.

From everything I've seen, most pro-lifers don't approve of the behavior and lifestyles of unwed mothers, but darn it, they've gotta be nice to them because they have a commodity the pro-lifers need....

And while they might prefer that there be a law banning abortions so that thes unwed mothers could be treated the way they deserve to be treated, they're stuck being kind and dispensing Pampers.

Here in the Bible Belt (sigh) I see this attitude among the evangelicals. They go scouring neighborhoods looking for poor and unsaved youth. They feed them and give them school supplies and take them to Bible school, and the moms appreciate it because they're overwhelmed and overburdened.....

And when the kids aren't around the evangelicals bad mouth their parents and talk about how these kids would never learn about Jesus if they weren't scavenging around apartment complexes looking for them.

Maybe you should start looking into volunteering for the church. I know in Boston , they get volunteers who open their homes to young pregnant girls. The goal is to shelter, clothe and feed them, and to make sure they finish school, but above all, the girl doesn't kill her child, and another beautiful life is formed.

I recall a sister Mariam here near Boston, requesting a bed or other supplies prior or during a Thursday night Charismatic Mass and healing service. The bed was provided for.

So maybe this is your call Fantine. Maybe you can help youg ladies from ending the lives of their babies.

 

[Fantine]

Fact:

In Nazi Germany, to abort "aryan" unborn children was punishable by death.

Fact:

Abortion was "perfected" (with the help of Margaret Sanger) in Nazi Germany as a means to control the undesirables.

I suppose you are trying to assert that pro-choice politicians are worse than Nazis.

Because Himmler, for example, in 1936:

established the "Reichszentrale zur Bekämpfung der Homosexualität und Abtreibung" ("Reich Central Office for the Combating of Homosexuality and Abortion").[102] The Nazi régime incarcerated some 100,000 homosexuals during the 1930s.[103] As concentration camp prisoners, homosexual men were forced to wear pink triangle badges.[104][105]

Nazism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And I suppose you are trying to assert that if Himmler were running against Obama today, the bishops would tell us to vote for Himmler because he was pro-life.

And as sick and perverse and distorted as that idea would be, I bet there are a few bishops out there who would tell Catholics to vote for Himmler.

I guess the fact that I would even consider that there might be a few bishops who'd jump at that position shows how serious I feel they've violated my trust.

 

[holyorders]

I suppose you are trying to assert that pro-choice politicians are worse than Nazis.

Because Himmler, for example, in 1936:



Nazism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And I suppose you are trying to assert that if Himmler were running against Obama today, the bishops would tell us to vote for Himmler because he was pro-life.

And as sick and perverse and distorted as that idea would be, I bet there are a few bishops out there who would tell Catholics to vote for Himmler.

I guess the fact that I would even consider that there might be a few bishops who'd jump at that position shows how serious I feel they've violated my trust.

Not what I mean.

I am implying that some old dogs have a hard time letting go of bad habits...

 

[WarriorAngel]

Liberal/progressive is the new word for 'same old' in a new package...with a bow.

 

[isshinwhat]

So, what other crimes which have some basis in poverty should we decriminalize? Theft? Prostitution? Fraud? Why should any murder in which poverty was a motivating factor be different than the murder of abortion?

 

[WarriorAngel]

And then there is this...
The constant pain - the mother wishing she had her child.

As an example:

The Blue Letter Archives

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]She became pregnant, and neither doubted Henley was the father. The "situation" was resolved quickly and quietly when Nicks, between tour dates, had an abortion. Although Henley did not try to force the issue, according to friends, she was deeply upset about what she considered his fast and easy consent to her decision. Nicks took it as Henley's way of saying he wasn't intersted in any type of serious long-term commitment. As had become his pattern, in the beginning Henley played the ultimate Southern-charm gentleman -- flowers, phone calls, words of love, Lear jets to Paris for romantic dinners. In the end he was distant, unreachable, brooding, argumentative, and elusive. It was a pattern by now so familiar to the Eagles crew it had become a running joke. Henley's favored method of seduction became to be known as "Love 'em and Lear 'em". [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Years later, Henley had this to say about his affair with Nicks: "[Stevie had] named the unborn kid Sara, and she had an abortion." She then wrote the song of the same name (which became a huge hit for her) and, according to Henley, dedicated it "to the spirit of the aborted baby".
[/FONT]




[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hesy7GBjr1Y[/FONT]



Wait a minute baby. . .
Stay with me awhile
Said you'd give me light
But you never told me about the fire

Drowning in the sea of love
Where everyone would love to drown
And now it's gone
It doesn't matter anymore
When you build your house
Call me home

And he was just like a great dark wing
Within the wings of a storm
I think I had met my match--he was singing
And undoing the laces
Undoing the laces

Drowning in the sea of love
Where everyone would love to drown
And now it's gone
It doesn't matter anymore
When you build your house
Call me home

Hold on
The night is coming and the starling
flew for days
I'd stay home at night all the time
I'd go anywhere, anywhere
Ask me and I'm there because I care

Sara, you're the poet in my heart
Never change, never stop
And now it's gone
It doesn't matter what for
When you build your house
I'll come by

Drowning in the sea of love
Where everyone would love to drown
And now it's gone
It doesn't matter anymore
When you build your house
Call me home

All I ever wanted
Was to know that you were dreaming
(There's a heartbeat
And it never really died)

 

[WarriorAngel]

Fleetwood Mac 1979 Sara - YouTube

 

[TheOtherHockeyMom]

Liberal/progressive is the new word for 'same old' in a new package...with a bow.

Same old what?

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

My Mother and Father grew up in Abject poverty, yet the crime level was exceedingly low. The problem is now, that people have forsaken God and the school systems teach our kids to act like animals. Many live in poverty, but don't steal, don't have sex without any care as to the consequences. I am not portraying myself as any better, but I do understand that with my actions, come consequences.

We are supposed to know and understand this as Christians.

 

[AMDG]

My Mother and Father grew up in Abject poverty, yet the crime level was exceedingly low. The problem is now, that people have forsaken God and the school systems teach our kids to act like animals. Many live in poverty, but don't steal, don't have sex without any care as to the consequences. I am not portraying myself as any better, but I do understand that with my actions, come consequences.

We are supposed to know and understand this as Christians.

My grandmother (God rest her soul) use to tell me that one could *be* poor, but he didn't have to act like it.

Poverty is no excuse for immorality.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I hear this a lot...public education teaches kids to be animals. I'm in public education. I've taught second, third, fifth, and sixth grades. I also know several middle school and high school teachers quite well. Nowhere in our system do we teach pre-marital sex as a virtue, we don't discuss the gay lifestyle, we don't discuss divorce, condoms, hooking up, or any of the other stuff I keep hearing. I'm always hearing this stuff. The P.E. teacher at our school teaches family life. I've sat in my classroom working at my computer while he taught the "Growth and Development/Family Life" curriculum. It talks about hormones, changes in your body, things to expect as your body changes, and it actually talks about sex being connected to love and nowhere do I ever hear any such nonsense about how kids should go nail every girl they see on sight? Never. They don't pass out condoms in our high schools or train kids to be chimpanzees with hormone rages. This is far Right propaganda aimed at making public education the great satan out to program the youth away from God. It's pure poppycock.

My Mother and Father grew up in Abject poverty, yet the crime level was exceedingly low. The problem is now, that people have forsaken God and the school systems teach our kids to act like animals. Many live in poverty, but don't steal, don't have sex without any care as to the consequences. I am not portraying myself as any better, but I do understand that with my actions, come consequences.

We are supposed to know and understand this as Christians.