CMB claims are religion

[Subduction Zone]

You know that it took billions of years to produce the microwaves out there...because..? Ha.

If you want to learn you can't be rude. Do you wish to learn or not? The Ostrich Defense may be comforting, but it does not get you anywhere.

 

[dad]

It is not a direct measurement of time, but rather of expansion. The CMB stems from the period of recombination, when atoms formed and the universe became relatively transparent so that photons could travel freely.

Nice story. However, already you are knee deep in religion. The way you determine there was expansion for the most part, I think is redshift Then you turn around and claim that it took billions of years to produce that redshifted light. Why? Apparently because you need it to be so to agree with the first loop of your circular reasoning!

That happens at about 3000 Kelvin,

As measured...where? Earth. So on earth that happens.

so that was the temperature of the original radiation when it formed.

Circular. BECAUSE something transpires on earth at a certain temperature you think that it had to have been that way in the distant universe. You also assume it 'formed' (spewed forth from a little hot soup speck). Then you interpret what we see accordingly. Circular.

We can measure the temperature of the existing CMB, which is more like 3K.

You can measure it here. The light we see from afar is interpreted to mean a certain temperature, because to produce light like that here in the fishbowl certain temperatures are needed...anything else??

That factor of 1000 is the redshift difference between then and now due to the expansion of space 'stretching out' the wavelengths of the light.

Break that down for us...the factor of 1000?

To turn the redshift into a time measurement, we need to know how fast the universe is expanding, so this is why measurement of the Hubble constant is important.

Then you are hooped. To know how fast anything goes out there you need to know time exists there also as it does here. You have no distances. Only faith based guesses at distances/sizes.

Combining CMB measurements with cosmological models provides us with our estimates of the age of the universe.

Well, if we combine the CMB measurements with Santa Clause, we might get the color of Rudolf's nose also.

But..hey, that seems like an honest attempt at defending your beliefs.

 

[dad]

If you want to learn you can't be rude. Do you wish to learn or not? The Ostrich Defense may be comforting, but it does not get you anywhere.

You say nothing as always. But feel free to pretend you are a real whiz and know it all.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nice story. However, already you are knee deep in religion. The way you determine there was expansion for the most part, I think is redshift Then you turn around and claim that it took billions of years to produce that redshifted light. Why? Apparently because you need it to be so to agree with the first loop of your circular reasoning!

I can see that you do not know how distances have been measured to distant galaxies. That will be covered if you try to learn.

As measured...where? Earth. So on earth that happens.
Circular. BECAUSE something transpires on earth at a certain temperature you think that it had to have been that way in the distant universe. You also assume it 'formed' (spewed forth from a little hot soup speck). Then you interpret what we see accordingly. Circular.

Nope, not circular and you know this. You were shown enough times how we know that radioactive decay rates are the same in deep space. The question is how much science are you going to deny?

You can measure it here. The light we see from afar is interpreted to mean a certain temperature, because to produce light like that here in the fishbowl certain temperatures are needed...anything else??

Okay dad, new rule. every time you use the word "fishbowl" and cannot support that claim you lose. And once again this will be covered in our discussion if you choose to learn.

Break that down for us...the factor of 1000?
Then you are hooped. To know how fast anything goes out there you need to know time exists there also as it does here. You have no distances. Only faith based guesses at distances/sizes.[/quoite]

No, no, no. you have the flaw of faith. Saying that others have faith is a personal attack and is against the rules.

Well, if we combine the CMB measurements with Santa Clause, we might get the color of Rudolf's nose also.

As I said, the Ostrich Defense is not very convincing.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You say nothing as always. But feel free to pretend you are a real whiz and know it all.

That is because you ran away as always. Do you wish to learn or not? I am betting that you run away again.

 

[dad]

I can see that you do not know how distances have been measured to distant galaxies.

Time is involved. Really.

Nope, not circular and you know this. You were shown enough times how we know that radioactive decay rates are the same in deep space. The question is how much science are you going to deny?

Light from there is seen and unfolds only in our time actually.

Okay dad, new rule.

You do not make rules. You are here to show your religion cannot be supported.

 

[dad]

That is because you ran away as always. Do you wish to learn or not? I am betting that you run away again.

We all run when posters offer nothing.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

That is because you ran away as always. Do you wish to learn or not? I am betting that you run away again.

Bit harsh. I think Dad has shown great improvement. Remember how once upon a time he had "Undefeated" on his sig. Now it is just "On the winning side". Around the time of second coming I will bet we can get him to "actually thinking it over" status.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Time is involved. Really.

Light from there is seen and unfolds only in our time actually.

You do not make rules. You are here to show your religion cannot be supported.

Dad, if you can't face your fears I can't help you. And watch the personal attacks. Last warning.

 

[Subduction Zone]

We all run when posters offer nothing.

You ran away before anything could be given. Why are you afraid?

 

[dad]

Bit harsh. I think Dad has shown great improvement. Remember how once upon a time he had "Undefeated" on his sig. Now it is just "On the winning side". Around the time of second coming I will bet we can get him to "actually thinking it over" status.

The thing is, actually as far as the creation evolution issues go, I am totally undefeated and will remain that way. Since I also wandered over to other areas of the forum, I thought I would try to be modest though. For evos, it is fine to remind them they are defeated.

 

[dad]

Dad, if you can't face your fears I can't help you. And watch the personal attacks. Last warning.

Defend your religion. Watch out about the vacuous spam posts.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Nice story.

Yes, cosmology has had excellent success in building up a consistent picture of the history of the universe based on established science and observations.

However, already you are knee deep in religion. The way you determine there was expansion for the most part, I think is redshift Then you turn around and claim that it took billions of years to produce that redshifted light. Why? Apparently because you need it to be so to agree with the first loop of your circular reasoning!

No, it is not circular. It is a measurement. Measurement of the CMB gives us a 'distance' -- how far the light has redshifted from when it was produced and when it was measured. Measurement of the Hubble constant tells us a rate or speed -- how fast the redshift changes. If at 5 pm, you complete a journey of 80 miles travelling at an average speed of 40 miles per hour, at what time did your journey begin?

The age of the universe is measured, not 'claimed' because 'we need it to be so'.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Defend your religion. Watch out about the vacuous spam posts.

You already lost dad. You tried to insult it by calling accepting reality religion. That is a slam against your own personal beliefs. Amazingly you just told the world that your beliefs are wrong since they are religious beliefs.

But let's see if you are still afraid. There are several concepts we will have to go over so let's start with the Doppler Effect. Are you familiar with it? Do you know how it works? When one goes towards the source of a wave the perceived frequency goes up when one moves away from the source of a wave the perceived frequency goes down. Do you need this explained to you?

 

[Brightmoon]

The thing is, actually as far as the creation evolution issues go, I am totally undefeated and will remain that way. Since I also wandered over to other areas of the forum, I thought I would try to be modest though. For evos, it is fine to remind them they are defeated.

ummmm no! you just demonstrated repeatedly that you just don’t understand basic science

 

[dad]

Yes, cosmology has had excellent success in building up a consistent picture of the history of the universe based on established science and observations.

If the word of God gives a true picture of the future and start of the universe, what science has built up is a crock. But as I point out betimes, science is based only on beliefs when it comes to origins, so what we have is another religion that opposes Scripture that was set up.

No, it is not circular. It is a measurement. Measurement of the CMB gives us a 'distance' -- how far the light has redshifted from when it was produced and when it was measured. Measurement of the Hubble constant tells us a rate or speed -- how fast the redshift changes.

"The Hubble Constant can be stated as a simple mathematical expression, Ho = v/d, where v is the galaxy's radial outward velocity (in other words, motion along our line-of-sight), d is the galaxy's distance from earth, and Hois the current value of the Hubble Constant.

However, obtaining a true value for Ho is very complicated. Astronomers need two measurements. First, spectroscopic observations reveal the galaxy's redshift, indicating its radial velocity. The second measurement, the most difficult value to determine, is the galaxy's precise distance from earth. Reliable "distance indicators," such as variable stars and supernovae, must be found in galaxies. The value of Ho itself must be cautiously derived from a sample of galaxies that are far enough away that motions due to local gravitational influences are negligibly small."

Hubble Constant


So the view from the fishbowl is our line of sight. Any time in the calculation is absolutely destroyed unless you can prove that time even exists out there AS it does here! Boom. Then they NEED the distances derived from cepheid variables etc, and these cannot be defended in any way. The cosmic distance ladder uses time in the fishbowl to set the clocks for the universe. Parallax uses fishbowl time and space. The Hubble constant is nothing more than smoke and mirrors and circular reasoning and religion. Truly.

If at 5 pm, you complete a journey of 80 miles travelling at an average speed of 40 miles per hour, at what time did your journey begin?

Travelling in the fishbowl? Ha.

The age of the universe is measured, not 'claimed' because 'we need it to be so'.

Measured WITH fishbowl time, and BY fishbowl time! They measure themselves and their fishbowl BY comparing themselves and their fishbowl WITH themselves and their fishbowl!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[dad]

ummmm no! you just demonstrated repeatedly that you just don’t understand basic science

What goes on in Vegas stays in Vegas, and what goes on in your mind stays there. Out here, you have not even made a case or if so, not one worth remembering. Why is that?

 

[dad]

But let's see if you are still afraid. There are several concepts we will have to go over so let's start with the Doppler Effect. Are you familiar with it? Do you know how it works? When one goes towards the source of a wave the perceived frequency goes up when one moves away from the source of a wave the perceived frequency goes down. Do you need this explained to you?

That is not applicable to the rest of the universe, sorry. Not unless you first prove time exists the same out there, and you cannot do that. Anything else?

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is not applicable to the rest of the universe, sorry. Not unless you first prove time exists the same out there, and you cannot do that. Anything else?

Why not? If you want to make that claim you need to prove it. And we have proved that time is the same elsewhere. I can't remember the user name but you were shown this many times. Perhpas the user has been banned because I do not get any hits on variations of the name that I remember.


You are the one making extreme claims, you are the one that needs to prove them. Until then the laws here are the same everywhere. We are not playing that game. That too is an instant loss on your part.

By he way, why do you so often insult your religious beliefs?

 

[essentialsaltes]

If the word of God gives a true picture of the future and start of the universe, what science has built up is a crock.

Many people have no difficulty accepting both as true.

So the view from the fishbowl is our line of sight. Any time in the calculation is absolutely destroyed unless you can prove that time even exists out there AS it does here! Boom.

There is no reason or evidence to suppose that physics is different out there as opposed to here. Indeed, quite the opposite, the conservation of momentum is intricately related with the idea that space is homogeneous. "the invariance of physical systems with respect to spatial translation (in other words, that the laws of physics do not vary with locations in space) gives the law of conservation of linear momentum".

Regardless, we know the earth is billions of years old from measurements right here on earth.

Travelling in the fishbowl? Ha.

Dad, have you been defeated by a 5th grade word problem?