Clovis and Remi: Quote Check

Erasmus7

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Good day,

I wonder if anyone can help me. I am seeking the historical source of a quote. The quote is supposedly from St Remi, also known as Remigius, who uttered the following statement, actually a prophecy, over Clovis, first Christian king of the Franks, in 498AD.

However, I have not been able to track down the exact source in the ancient writings.

Can anybody assist?

The quote/prophecy, purportedly from Remi, runs:

“The kingdom of France is predestined by God to defend the Church of Christ Our Lord. This kingdom will be great among all the kingdoms of the earth. In as much as it is loyal to its calling, it will be victorious. If it proves unfaithful in this, it will be punished harshly. Nevertheless, it will remain until the end of time.”
 

Quid est Veritas?

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This sounds like it might be in the Vita Remigii of Hincmar of Rheims. It would fit the sanctified character of the baptism of Clovis in the work, with the sacred Ampulla. This is also where Clovis is first connected to the sacred vial of the Ampulla, after Hincmar adapted the Legend of the moribund Pagan. Regardless, it is almost certainly mediaeval, and much later than the fifth or sixth century.

I don't have the text on hand right now, but I'll look around.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I checked Hincmar and Gregory of Tours, but couldn't find it there, nor is it in the Ordo of Rheims. A legitimate prophecy of a Frankish Kingdom destined to greatness, would definitely have made it into the latter book, as it was written to glorify France via its Coronation ritual, and is accordingly heavily dependant on Remigius' supposed miracle of sacred oil given by God.

I think this is a fake prophecy. It likely comes from much later as it seems akin to the myth of the "Last Roman Emperor" or "Great Catholic Monarch" who will be a sort-of saviour figure before the Antichrist to establish the last Christian Empire. This myth comes from pseudo-Methodius in the 7th century, but only became popular in the West from the 15th onward and was given a new lease of life by French monarchists in the 19th.

There is a similar false claim that I have seen that Augustine said something about a great Frankish king and his going to the mount of Olives, but this is completely absent from his extent writings.
 
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Erasmus7

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I checked Hincmar and Gregory of Tours, but couldn't find it there, nor is it in the Ordo of Rheims. A legitimate prophecy of a Frankish Kingdom destined to greatness, would definitely have made it into the latter book, as it was written to glorify France via its Coronation ritual, and is accordingly heavily dependant on Remigius' supposed miracle of sacred oil given by God.

I think this is a fake prophecy. It likely comes from much later as it seems akin to the myth of the "Last Roman Emperor" or "Great Catholic Monarch" who will be a sort-of saviour figure before the Antichrist to establish the last Christian Empire. This myth comes from pseudo-Methodius in the 7th century, but only became popular in the West from the 15th onward and was given a new lease of life by French monarchists in the 19th.

There is a similar false claim that I have seen that Augustine said something about a great Frankish king and his going to the mount of Olives, but this is completely absent from his extent writings.



Thank you very much indeed, Quid est Veritas. Your research and prompt replies are much appreciated.

I am currently researching the question as to at what precise moment various European countries became Christian, and am ideally seeking quotes, or at least something quotable, cementing the nature of this commitment. I am seeking, in essence, the moment when the respective European countries became 'Christian nations' as such.
I am aware that for many peoples the 'conversion' was gradual rather than sudden, and that in some cases there was no 'glorious moment' as such that the country could be said to be officially a 'Christian nation'.

Could you by any chance provide assistance here? Do you know of anyone who has done similar research, or could you perhaps point toward any books or web sites?

Thanks and kind regards,
Erasmus
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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There are a number of problems you will encounter.

Firstly, when do you see a 'country' emerging? Germany only came into existence in 1870, although the amorphous idea of 'Germania' or 'the Germanies' existed before this. France descends from one of the three realms that Louis the Pious' sons split the Carolingian Empire into. Germany could be said to descend from another part of this tripartite devision. Alternately do you equate Gaul and France, for Gaul extended into Cisalpine Gaul in northern Italy and Celtiberia in Spain.
Spain only with the joint monarchy of Isabella and Ferdinand in the 15th century. Hispania or Iberia are similar, but usually include Portugal. Italy after the Risorgimento of the 19th, but with an amorphous idea of 'Italia' going back to pre-Roman times.
Do you date only when the whole modern territory was converted, regardless if the 'country' didn't yet exist? Or when a significant proportion had been?

Secondly, when is a population considered converted? When the majority of the population is Christian? For the Roman Empire largely converted, and when the barbarians carved kingdoms from it, the population remained largely Christian. The barbarian tribes, especcially Goths (Ostro and Visi), were anyway usually Arian by this time, thanks to efforts by Wulfilas - do you define Arians as Christian?
So when Clovis converted from paganism, large areas he ruled had been Christian for more than a hundred years. So France, Spain, Italy, Portugal, etc. were Christian from at least the fourth, and areas from the 2nd.

What if a leader converted, but his people lagged a bit? Are they then converted? Like Norway when Olaf converted which took some time to catch up, with some significant backsliding. Or Lithuania when its Grand Prince converted on becoming king of Poland, the last pagan stronghold of Europe in the 14th. Hungary when Stephen converted, etc.

What of missionaries whose mission was ultimately succesful, but initially not so much? Like Adalbert of Bremen in Pomerania and Denmark? Or conversion by the sword, such as Charlemagme's Saxon campaigns, for this is not necessarily 'conversion' at that stage, although function follows form.

Anyway, for sources I would suggest Bede's Eclessiastical History for England and Gildas' Woe of Britain for background. Ireland the Confessio Patricii is a good place to start, although there were missionaries before Patrick. The Vita Columba is a good source for Scotland, but remember these are hagiographic works.
Gregory of Tours is one of the earliest Frankish chroniclers, and Eusebius or the Church Fathers give good detail for Roman territories.

It is a bit of a broad question, with a lot of different ways to interpret or answer it, that are all ambigious. I don't know a specific work adressing this question, but you should find early sources for most countries on this question. The mediaeval Church liked to write on such topics, as usually it allowed a lot of Saint's lives and such.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Hello,

The text come from Flodoard, Historia ecclesiæ Remensi. (History of the Church of Reims).
Could you give a more exact reference, such as chapter? I quickly looked through Flodoard's Historia Remensis ecclesiae, but couldn't find it. I only have access to a Latin text though, so I might have missed it somewhere.
 
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Radagast

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The version I have reads somewhat differently:

Take notice, my child, that the kingdom of France is predestined by God for the defence of the Roman Church, which is the only true Church of Christ. This kingdom shall one day be great among the kingdoms of the earth, and shall embrace all the limits of the Roman Empire, and shall submit all other kingdoms to its own sceptre. It shall last until the end of time. It shall be victorious and prosperous as long as it will remain faithful to the Holy Roman See, and will not be guilty of any of those crimes which ruin nations; but it shall be rudely punished every time that it will become unfaithful to its vocation.


See this book (also on archive.org). I have no opinion on reliability, not having chased the quote to its origins.
 
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