Clergy Participating in Protests Against Gay Rights Parade in the Country of Georgia

[Dorothea]

The line isn't so clearly drawn when "Georgian morals" has, historically, meant "Orthodox morals." In the mind of a Georgian one could probably substitute "The Church" "Georgian Traditions" and "History" pretty fluidly. They do say, after all "our sacred national traditions." I know my priest has told me before that to be Serbian means to be Orthodox, and if you're of Serbian descent but leave the faith, you're less of a Serbian for it.

Here in America, especially where our traditions are a religious minority, where we're so indoctrinated (not necessarily in a bad way) to delineate Church and State, we're quick to want to keep them separate. In the majority of history that hasn't been the case, and really, we can't necessarily say that our way is any better, particularly when the country's state has, historically, been Orthodox.



I agree. They can protest all they like, IMO, but when they stoop to violence they soil their vestments. Clergy can have political opinions just as any other citizen, even in a secular state, and can participate in as many protests as they want (do any of us hesitate to support those of our Church who show up for the Walks for Life?) but they do not have the right to resort to violence while doing so.

Good points. I was thinking that, although I believe most of the articles written on this (because there were gay parades in Russia and the Ukraine also with similiar scuffles and such) are slanted a bit (I don't think one is a "homophobe" just because one thinks a behavior is sinful), I can see in one of the articles about how Georgia and the other countries had been under communism and had been released from it now for the past decade, that maybe they aren't used to these types of "parades" and so it may be shocking to them. Still, hopefully, they will not continue with such violent actions.

 

[Dorothea]

After reading the article I'd like to point out that the reporter nowhere says that the clergy were actually involved in any violence. The most he says is "black-robed Orthodox clergy [broke] into a trot and lead an angry mob in an attack..." I'm skeptical that any clergy participated in violence, because this article would love to write about that, or show pictures of clergy committing disgraceful actions.

The article actually reads like arrogant, affronted Westerners who are upset that there are people in foreign countries who resent their involvement. When Western powers start to impose their views on other countries those countries begin to get angry at this new form of colonialism and react by getting more 'into' their historical identifiers, one of which is always religion. We've seen this in the Middle East, we're seeing it in Eastern Europe. The answer is to stop wallowing in this "White Man's Burden" or "Manifest Destiny" or whatever other label you want to put on it, and trust other countries to be able to put on their big girl pants and govern themselves.

Yes, all three of the articles I read slanted that way.

The video that I saw, I could not honesty tell if clergy were there smashing bus windows or throwing rocks. Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f4lMuAhORU&feature=player_embedded


Here's the article it's from:

Rising church asserts itself in Georgia after Orthodox Christian protesters attack gay-rights activists | GlobalPost

 

[rusmeister]

One thing you should know is that the media here consistently seek out self-described Orthodox activists who so very un-Orthodox things. Every month or two there's some kind of story of this sort. The term "Orthodox activist" is a huge clue.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Should the clergy really be involved in such protests and actions? And being leading protests where physical actions that are not peaceful may happen?

Small excerpt from article posted below:

Many were shocked on May 17 to see a phalanx of black-robed Orthodox clergy break into a trot and lead an angry mob in an attack on a gay-rights rally in the Georgian capital, Tbilisi.


Orthodox Churches Fight Back As Eastern Europe Pushes To Modernize, Secularize

Blind post:

Well tbh the best way to convince these homosexuals that they are living in sin is to threaten them with some kind of bodily harm. You don't have to injure them or anything, but if you just waive a gun around that'll help them realize that when they are doing by choosing to be gay is actually a sin against God.
"Ohhh, you have guns and stone. Okay I'll stop being gay now."

God always sides with whoever is the angriest, because anger harbors love in a twisted, Eastern Orthodoxy sort of way...

Particularly disturbing are when minorities in eastern European countries want rights too.
How ever will our priests and bishops collect enough bricks to throw at some many immigrants?

No no, that's okay. Have your traditions. Just beware that suffering imposed on humanity by itself is the greatest argument against the existence of God there is. Even if it doesn't prove God doesn't exist (because that's a metaphysical claim) it certainly causes younger generations to fail to see why we should worship God, or even why we should think that God is good.

In fact the argument, not that God doesn't exist, but that we're unjustified in saying that God is Good, is to my mind, frighteningly more powerful that anything I've ever seen.


Quick nuanced defense.
I Don't blame Orthodoxy for this violence, not a bit. I'm only pointing out it makes the Orthodoxy Church look bad.

Whenever a society blames minorities of any type. There's something much deeper going on behind the curtains. These same people are basically "nationalists" it's not like they're moral crusaders when they rally against a treaty between Serbia and Kosovo...

This isn't even caused by religion of any type. It's caused by poverty and a lack of opportunity.
Islam may allow (note, I said allow not mandate or encourage) for suicide bombings, but I've not met a millionaire Muslim yet who wouldn't rather pay someone else to do a bombing for him, if at all (usually the latter).

Drive people in an Orthodox country into enough desperation and there's no reason at all to think they wouldn't build up a desire to commit acts of violence. At which point any twisting at all of Orthodox doctrine is fair game, because in truth they've already decided how they're going to solve their problem; they're just looking for the "thumbs up".

As simple as it sounds, this is about education, jobs and opportunity. Unemployed Serbs want to know who to blame. Fill in the word Serbs with anyone else you like, Russians, Slavs, Bosnians, this or that group, whatever. So they get wiped up into a national frenzy.

Whenever people face a reduced level of living standards and opportunity, what is really called for is a critique of the political economic system that is affecting their lives. That means a critique of capitalism.

 

[buzuxi02]

Are you saying westerners insatiable appetite for homosexuality and multiculturalism is because their unemployed?

 

[Wesley1982]

This is great for funny political satire.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Are you saying westerners insatiable appetite for homosexuality and multiculturalism is because their unemployed?

You have it exactly reversed. Hatred of minorities thrives in poor economic conditions.

"love of multiculturalism"? You have noooo idea how racist people are in the US.

For now we'd rather hate Chinese/Indian people than blame the system that finds it economically cheaper to employ them at a lower wage. GE is more sacred than God in our country.

As for the "insatiable lust for homosexuality". You'd love the south, they're more into guns than gays down there. Sometimes gays find themselves at the wrong end of the gun.

But I'll refer you to your own "Golden Dawn" party for a better example. Since Greece went bankrupt it has become increasingly nationalistic.

 

[buzuxi02]

Well You may have gone off on a tangent on me. My point is in many western countries young men have awaken to their parents betrayal. In today's paper I saw young British men protest against Islam in their country while the oldtimers in government reviled them and the newspapers slander them as extremists. It's obvious westerners hate their own children now, well guess what? Your children hate you too. In Greece the old fat slobs who run the establishment slander their children calling them members of the golden dawn and "fanatical old calendarists" whenever they protest for traditional values, well guess what? Your children hate you just as much as you hate them.

Again the Muslim sympathizing immoral institutions of the west need to be spit upon. That's exactly what the clergy are doing. They are the ultimate rebels against the evils of Neo-westernism and the ignorant masses who've destroyed their children.

 

[127.0.0.1]

In Greece the old fat slobs who run the establishment slander their children calling them members of the golden dawn and "fanatical old calendarists" whenever they protest for traditional values, well guess what? Your children hate you just as much as you hate them.

I don't know exactly what you're getting at. "Golden Dawn" isn't a slander, that's literally the name of the party, that's what they call themselves.
My point is that the Golden Dawn is gaining in popularity in part, due to the deteriorating economic conditions.

Michael Chege and his friends patrol their neighbourhood in Athens, Greece, most nights. After many encounters with the neo-Nazi group, Golden Dawn, they set up their own brigade, nicknamed the Black Panthers.They want to protect themselves from the fascists who are targeting people who are not ethnic Greeks.

It's not a "Greek" thing by any means. Germany was in shambles before the Nazi's. Eastern European countries are increasing in their own nationalism as the result of economic cuts & sequestration...etc.

Here in the US, we're suffering from strong increases in our own right-wing extremism. Arizona requires you to carry papers proving you're a citizen, the law is used for police to target Hispanics mostly. Even legal immigrants have been detained in prison if they failed to produce a passport on their person.

There's no love for Islam in the US. No one in the west is apologizing for Islam either. We liberals just don't believe in return violence for violence.

 

[buzuxi02]

The problem is most who protest are neither golden dawn nor old calendarists. Secondly they do not use a nazi emblem, they use the traditional Greek meander design. And guess what? Most of them are young physically fit men, not the old bald slobs in government and positions of power who slander them.

So the oldtimers hate their children and side with the islamists, homosexuals, and harlots. Well your children hate you too and are now coming to take you out.

 

[Dorothea]

One thing you should know is that the media here consistently seek out self-described Orthodox activists who so very un-Orthodox things. Every month or two there's some kind of story of this sort. The term "Orthodox activist" is a huge clue.

Thanks for the heads up on this, Rus. It's helpful for future perusing of articles from Russia and other countries in the area.

 

[Mariya116]

Georgians? I won't even walk into a Georgian church by myself. I'm scared of these people.

 

[Mariya116]

Last year, I've actually told a Georgian friend: "there's a concert at a Georgian church on Staten Island, wanna come with me? Cuz I'm not going alone." She couldn't make it, and I didn't go.

 

[gracefullamb]

.

 

[buzuxi02]

Thee is also something called righteous anger. And i can cite plenty of saints, even Christ who whipped the merchants out of the temple.

People are sick and tired of these old slobs in power telling us what to believe. We refuse to be sheeple like the ignorant masses who tell us to practise homosexuality, adopt islam and accept what they tell us to accept. Oh and not only do we reject your western values, we hate them.

 

[rusmeister]

I think buzuxi has a point, and that is anywhere we have power and thus responsibility for society. We are supposed to turn our own cheek, not our neighbor's.

 

[127.0.0.1]

I'm pretty sure the people who tell you to "practice homosexuality" are not the same people who tell you to "adopt Islam".

I know, I know, your country is overrun with homosexuals Muslims, but I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[buzuxi02]

they are the same people, usually other americans. I'm in the restaurant business where a year ago a few high profile mayors told me, they dont want me doing business in their city if I dont accept homosexuality. Im told as a white man I should be pro-homosexual.

And when the ground zero mosque was debated these same people were telling me to accept islam. One of the 'leaders' who were advocating the right of this mosque described herself as a lesbian jew!. It was all over the news. Its not muslims, its my own kind. It is my own kind who are traitors. In many western counntres it is their parents and relatives who are traitors. As the old slobs plot against their own children as it took place in Greece and Georgia, and in Britain this past week as they slander their young men who protest .

We hate your western values and spit upon them.

 

[Cappadocious]

So the oldtimers hate their children and side with the islamists, homosexuals, and harlots. Well your children hate you too and are now coming to take you out.

At least the Ottomans knew how to govern properly.

 

[Cappadocious]

We hate your western values and spit upon them.

Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!

Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.