ClementofA links

[FineLinen]

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

Journal of Analytic Theology

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - αἰσχύνη - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - αἰσχύνη - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Endless Punishment

Two Questions

Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Reforming Hell

Talbott—Does God allow irreparable harm?

Bible Commentaries

Bible Commentaries

Web Online Help

Web Online Help

Saint Origen

Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

Is God A Monster?

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Aionas Ton Aionon

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

Bible Translations NOT Teaching Eternal Torment

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

AEON

Aeon - Wikipedia

Concerning Aion and Aionios

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

Forever and ever

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Early Christian Doctrines

Full text of "103911481-J-N-D-Kelly-Early-Christian-Doctrines.pdf (PDFy mirror)"

Unbaptised Infants Who Die

The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptised

Victims Of Infanticide

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

Endless Punishment For Victims?

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide

Augustines Ignorance (Matt 25:46)

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Scholar's Corner Christian Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Love Wins

Love Wins Because God Is Love… | For Whom nothing is impossible…Love NEVER Fails!

Statement Of Faith

Statement of Faith -- Please Read

Seven Myths

7 Myths About Universalism

Evangelical Objections

The Evangelical Universalist: Responses to evangelical objections to the orthodoxy of universalism

Will Hitler Be Saved?

The Evangelical Universalist: Will Hitler be Saved?

How Universalism Has Impacted My Life

The Evangelical Universalist: How Universalism Has Impacted my Life

Believers In Universal Reconciliation

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

Why preach it?

Fifteen Reasons for Preaching Christian Universalism

The True Good News

Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof of Biblical Reconciliation

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

The truth will make you free

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

The Biblical Eons

The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Martin Zender

The Eons

Eons & worlds

EONS AND WORLDS

 

[Albion]

Universalism had some following in the early days of the church, but the Scriptural evidence for it is very weak (which is why those arguing for it in our own times usually rely upon rationalizations, not Bible evidence), whereas references to being eternally lost are many and very explicit.

 

[FineLinen]

Universalism had some following in the early days of the church, but the Scriptural evidence for it is very weak (which is why those arguing for it in our own times usually rely upon rationalizations, not Bible evidence), whereas references to being eternally lost are many and very explicit.

The Beautiful Heresy

The Beautiful Heresy- Christian Universalism: The Early Church

The First 500 Years

Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years

The Earliest Creeds 5

II Early Christianity a Cheerful Religion 17

III Origin of Endless Punishment 36

IV Doctrines of Mitigation and Reserve 53

V Two Kindred Topics 61

VI The Apostles' Immediate Successors 70

VII The Gnostic Sects

The Beautiful Heresy- Christian Universalism: The Early Church

The History of Universalism (Part Two) | Christian Universalist Association

 

[Not David]

Why do you keep repeating it over and over???

 

[ClementofA]

references to being eternally lost are many and very explicit.

EO scholar David Bentley Hart sees things quite differently:

"Wills is correct that I believe that the later, fully-developed Christian concept of hell as a place of perpetual conscious torment to which countless souls are irrevocably damned is absent from the New Testament (which is not to say that various images of damnation are not present, a few of which can be read as being consonant with the later view). The problem is that almost none of the items on Wills’s list has any bearing on the matter at all."

"...While we are on the topic, however, I might mention that, alongside various, often seemingly contradictory images of eschatological punishment, the New Testament also contains a large number of seemingly explicit statements of universal salvation, excluding no one (for instance, John 3:17; 12:32, 47; Romans 5:18-19; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19; Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6;4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 John 2:2 … to mention only some of the most striking). To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology)."

Anent Garry Wills and the “DBH” Version

 

[Not David]

EO scholar David Bentley Hart sees things quite differently:

"Wills is correct that I believe that the later, fully-developed Christian concept of hell as a place of perpetual conscious torment to which countless souls are irrevocably damned is absent from the New Testament (which is not to say that various images of damnation are not present, a few of which can be read as being consonant with the later view). The problem is that almost none of the items on Wills’s list has any bearing on the matter at all."

"...While we are on the topic, however, I might mention that, alongside various, often seemingly contradictory images of eschatological punishment, the New Testament also contains a large number of seemingly explicit statements of universal salvation, excluding no one (for instance, John 3:17; 12:32, 47; Romans 5:18-19; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19; Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6;4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 John 2:2 … to mention only some of the most striking). To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology)."

Anent Garry Wills and the “DBH” Version

I didn't know David Bentley Hart was infallible. Why don't you convert to Orthodoxy them?

 

[Albion]

EO scholar David Bentley Hart sees things quite differently:

Because you quoted from my post, I probably should respond to yours.

Yes, there are verses which Universalists hang their hats on. But the question is "Do these really teach us that every human is saved, come what may, no matter what kind of lives they lead or gods they worship?"

A close look at the verses that have been provided to us shows that most don't actually say that. Consider just this one, for example:

Hebrews 2:9
"9 But we behold him who hath been made a little lower than the angels, [even] Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for every [man]."

Jesus' sacrifice is considered by Christians to have a universal applicability, but does this mean--or does that passage tell us that--every last human who comes into the world will automatically be saved? Or does it mean that all have the opportunity for salvation, thanks to Jesus' sacrificial work on the cross?

 

[ClementofA]

I didn't know David Bentley Hart was infallible. Why don't you convert to Orthodoxy them?

He's not infallible. Did anyone say he is?

 

[ClementofA]

Because you quoted from my post, I probably should respond to yours.

Yes, there are verses which Universalists hang their hats on. But the question is "Do these really teach us that every human is saved, come what may, no matter what kind of lives they lead or gods they worship?"

A close look at the verses that have been provided to us shows that most don't actually say that. Consider just this one, for example:

Hebrews 2:9
"9 But we behold him who hath been made a little lower than the angels, [even] Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for every [man]."

Jesus' sacrifice is considered by Christians to have a universal applicability, but does this mean--or does that passage tell us that--every last human who comes into the world will automatically be saved? Or does it mean that all have the opportunity for salvation, thanks to Jesus' sacrificial work on the cross?

I'll leave that to DBH to defend, if you wish to contact him about it.

Or, perhaps, he expounds on it in his book on the subject:

https://www.amazon.com/That-All-Shall-Saved-Universal/dp/0300246226

I'd prefer to argue universalism from other passages in my posts in many threads all over this forum, such as 1 Cor.15:22-28, Romans 5:18-19, for examples.

 

[Oldmantook]

Universalism had some following in the early days of the church, but the Scriptural evidence for it is very weak (which is why those arguing for it in our own times usually rely upon rationalizations, not Bible evidence), whereas references to being eternally lost are many and very explicit.

Would you mind citing just one or two to back up your claim? Just the strongest ones in your opinion.

 

[ClementofA]

Would you mind citing just one or two to back up your claim? Just the strongest ones in your opinion.

How about i pretend to not be a universalist & use Matthew 7:21 as my "proof text" that universalism is false. How would you answer this:

Mt.7:21a ““Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

There you have it. "Not everyone...will enter the Kingdom of God". So not everyone will be saved or go to heaven.

““Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.” Matthew‬ ‭7:21

"Not everyone will enter. If they will not enter that means never. If they were to ever enter heaven even later in the future then everyone who calls out to Him Lord Lord will enter heaven and Jesus’ statement is false. Now you might try to argue that they will later do the will of God and be allowed to enter but that still means that everyone who calls Lord Lord will enter. So the Bible does say that some will never enter heaven."


**********************************************


Matthew 7:21-23:

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Matthew 7:21 never enter heaven?

not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven

 

[FineLinen]

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

Journal of Analytic Theology

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - αἰσχύνη - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - αἰσχύνη - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Endless Punishment

Two Questions

Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Reforming Hell

Talbott—Does God allow irreparable harm?

Bible Commentaries

Bible Commentaries

Web Online Help

Web Online Help

Saint Origen

Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

Is God A Monster?

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Aionas Ton Aionon

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

Bible Translations NOT Teaching Eternal Torment

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

AEON

Aeon - Wikipedia

Concerning Aion and Aionios

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

Forever and ever

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Early Christian Doctrines

Full text of "103911481-J-N-D-Kelly-Early-Christian-Doctrines.pdf (PDFy mirror)"

Unbaptised Infants Who Die

The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptised

Victims Of Infanticide

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

Endless Punishment For Victims?

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide

Augustines Ignorance (Matt 25:46)

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Scholar's Corner Christian Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Love Wins

Love Wins Because God Is Love… | For Whom nothing is impossible…Love NEVER Fails!

Statement Of Faith

Statement of Faith -- Please Read

Seven Myths

7 Myths About Universalism

Evangelical Objections

The Evangelical Universalist: Responses to evangelical objections to the orthodoxy of universalism

Will Hitler Be Saved?

The Evangelical Universalist: Will Hitler be Saved?

How Universalism Has Impacted My Life

The Evangelical Universalist: How Universalism Has Impacted my Life

Believers In Universal Reconciliation

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

Why preach it?

Fifteen Reasons for Preaching Christian Universalism

The True Good News

Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof of Biblical Reconciliation

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

The truth will make you free

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

The Biblical Eons

The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Martin Zender

The Eons

Eons & worlds

EONS AND WORLDS

Endless Punishment Dogma

Chapter 3 - Origin of Endless Punishment

 

[Oldmantook]

How about i pretend to not be a universalist & use Matthew 7:21 as my "proof text" that universalism is false. How would you answer this:

Mt.7:21a ““Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

There you have it. "Not everyone...will enter the Kingdom of God". So not everyone will be saved or go to heaven.

““Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.” Matthew‬ ‭7:21

"Not everyone will enter. If they will not enter that means never. If they were to ever enter heaven even later in the future then everyone who calls out to Him Lord Lord will enter heaven and Jesus’ statement is false. Now you might try to argue that they will later do the will of God and be allowed to enter but that still means that everyone who calls Lord Lord will enter. So the Bible does say that some will never enter heaven."


**********************************************


Matthew 7:21-23:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Matthew 7:21 never enter heaven?

not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven

Just because Christians calls Jesus "Lord" does not necessarily entail that Jesus is indeed the Lord of their lives. That is the whole point of this passage. These people were actually believers because they prophesied, cast out demons and did the miraculous - "in his name." Only regenerate believers are given the spiritual authority to use the name of Jesus. Jesus does not contradict their claim that these believers did those things. But despite doing those things, Jesus condemns them because they practiced lawlessness. Thus a believer can perform supernatural signs/wonders in Jesus' name and call Jesus Lord but in actuality, Jesus is not the Lord of their lives because they practiced lawlessness. Thus as a result of the habitual, unrepentant sin in their lives, Jesus commands them to depart from him.

So in answer to your question just because a Christian calls Jesus - Lord - it does not automatically entitle them to enter heaven. Our lives must be characterized by obedience; certainly not lawlessness as the Christians in Matt 7 found out much to their dismay. Thus because these disobedient Christians did not bow their knees in obedience to Christ in this life, they will be forced to bow their knees to Christ in the lake of fire where they will learn obedience and then Jesus will truly be the Lord of their lives. Thus in this way all will eventually be saved. Hope that answers your question.

 

[ClementofA]

Just because Christians calls Jesus "Lord" does not necessarily entail that Jesus is indeed the Lord of their lives. That is the whole point of this passage. These people were actually believers because they prophesied, cast out demons and did the miraculous - "in his name." Only regenerate believers are given the spiritual authority to use the name of Jesus. Jesus does not contradict their claim that these believers did those things. But despite doing those things, Jesus condemns them because they practiced lawlessness. Thus a believer can perform supernatural signs/wonders in Jesus' name and call Jesus Lord but in actuality, Jesus is not the Lord of their lives because they practiced lawlessness. Thus as a result of the habitual, unrepentant sin in their lives, Jesus commands them to depart from him.

So in answer to your question just because a Christian calls Jesus - Lord - it does not automatically entitle them to enter heaven. Our lives must be characterized by obedience; certainly not lawlessness as the Christians in Matt 7 found out much to their dismay. Thus because these disobedient Christians did not bow their knees in obedience to Christ in this life, they will be forced to bow their knees to Christ in the lake of fire where they will learn obedience and then Jesus will truly be the Lord of their lives. Thus in this way all will eventually be saved. Hope that answers your question.

Thanks for your reply. It gives a detailed opinion identifying who Jesus is referring to in the passage, though i'm not sure how it directly addresses the objection in my post, other than to assume they will "eventually be saved" even though v.21 says "Not everyone...will enter the Kingdom of God".

In a nutshell i would respond to it as follows:

Though not all will be doing His will on the “day” (v.22) of judgement, they will do it later (Mt.1:21; 2:6; 5:25-26; 18:34-35; etc).

Or for more detailed posts:

Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven

 

[Oldmantook]

Thanks for your reply. It gives a detailed opinion identifying who Jesus is referring to in the passage, though i'm not sure how it directly addresses the objection in my post, other than to assume they will "eventually be saved" even though v.21 says "Not everyone...will enter the Kingdom of God".

In a nutshell i would respond to it as follows:

Though not all will be doing His will on the “day” (v.22) of judgement, they will do it later (Mt.1:21; 2:6; 5:25-26; 18:34-35; etc).

Or for more detailed posts:

Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven

You're welcome. Yes, at the resurrection they are judged for not doing His will and as a result they end up in the lake of fire where they will learn to do His will and at that point, Jesus will in practice actually be the Lord of their lives instead of the "lip service" they gave prior to the LOF. If I didn't fully address your objection, you're welcome to elaborate.

 

[ClementofA]

If I didn't fully address your objection, you're welcome to elaborate.

The fictional Infernalist objection is: how can they ever be saved if they can never enter the kingdom?

As post 11 stated:

Mt.7:21a ““Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

There you have it. "Not everyone...will enter the Kingdom of God". So not everyone will be saved or go to heaven.

““Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.” Matthew‬ ‭7:21

"Not everyone will enter. If they will not enter that means never. If they were to ever enter heaven even later in the future then everyone who calls out to Him Lord Lord will enter heaven and Jesus’ statement is false. Now you might try to argue that they will later do the will of God and be allowed to enter but that still means that everyone who calls Lord Lord will enter. So the Bible does say that some will never enter heaven."

 

[Oldmantook]

The fictional Infernalist objection is: how can they ever be saved if they can never enter the kingdom?

As post 11 stated:

I don't see how these people fail to see the point of this passage and misinterpret what Jesus said. Jesus specifically referenced those believers who called Him LORD. Jesus said to them not everyone who calls me Lord shall enter the kingdom and gives the reason which is because they practiced lawlessness. Thus Jesus' point is that despite doing the miraculous, they lived their lives as hypocrites. Consequently, they will not enter the kingdom. However, Jesus did not say they will never enter the kingdom did He? It is illogical for them to conclude that 'not entering' and 'never entering' are one and the same thing. That is sheer presumption unsupported by the text itself. For example, I want to enter a grocery store but when I get there I realize the store has not yet opened to the public and thus I cannot enter the store. Is it then logical to conclude that I can never enter the store? That would be a ludicrous assumption to make! Yet that is what these people base their infernal argument on. Sheer nonsense! In the same way, just because those in Matt 7 cannot enter the kingdom due to their disobedient lives in this age, it is not logical to conclude that they are forever banned from entering the kingdom in a future age.

Moreover, it you look back at v.14 in Matt 7 it states:
"How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few are those who find (heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες | pres act ptcp nom pl masc) it!"
Heuriskontes is a present tense participle more accurately translated as "finding." Thus there are few who are (presently) finding the narrow gate. The verse does not state that others will not find it at some point in the future. This parallels and reinforces vs.21-23 which states that those believers fail to enter the kingdom/narrow gate because of their disobedience but it does not state that they will never, ever find it in in the future.

What people also fail to realize is that entering the kingdom does not refer to heaven. Entering the kingdom refers to co-reining with Jesus during his Millennial reign on the earth. The whole goal of the Christian life is not to live forever in heaven. Instead "eternal" life which actually means aionion/"age-during" life refers to life during the Millennial Age. The ultimate example of this are the martyrs who are beheaded for their faith during the tribulation. Rev 19:4 states that as a result of their faithfulness, they will live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. Thus those believers in Matt 7 are disqualified from the greatest privilege which is to rule and reign with Jesus during the millennium - not for an eternity. Christians have been duped into believing that eternal life means life forever with God in heaven when instead it means resurrected aionion life, ruling with Jesus for 1,000 years on the earth.

Addendum: I just had an "aha" moment after reading what I wrote. One can counter their argument by agreeing with them. Since they interpret will not enter as never enter - so be it. That is because believers in this age who live disobedient lives as those in Matt 7 did will never inherit the kingdom because they will never inherit the privilege of ruling with Christ in the Millennial kingdom.

 

[ClementofA]

However, Jesus did not say they will never enter the kingdom did He? It is illogical for them to conclude that 'not entering' and 'never entering' are one and the same thing. That is sheer presumption unsupported by the text itself. For example, I want to enter a grocery store but when I get there I realize the store has not yet opened to the public and thus I cannot enter the store. Is it then logical to conclude that I can never enter the store? That would be a ludicrous assumption to make!

Yes, good points. That shows how "not entering" and "never entering" are not the same.

Similar examples & more like the statement in Mt.7:21 state:

"Not everyone arriving at the store will be entering the store, but he who arrives when the store is open." If someone arrived early before the store was open they would not be allowed in. But that doesn't mean they will never enter or exclude them from returning later when it is open & entering then.

"Not everyone arriving at the football stadium will be entering the stadium, but he who has a ticket". If someone arrived without a ticket, they would be denied. But that doesn't mean they will never enter or exclude them from returning later after purchasing a ticket & entering then.

As regards the translation of Matthew 7:21-23, do you think it could be rendered as follows:

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter 22 in that day. Many will say to Me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

AFAIK in the earliest Greek MSS there are no sentences and no punctuation.

"In ancient Greek there were no punctuation marks; indeed, all words were run together with no spaces between them and using all capital letters."