claiming "undeniable proof the election was stolen and the courts ignored it" is NOT sedition?

perplexed

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Sorry I just don't understand Trump supporters

If I tell people "there is undeniable proof the election was stolen and the courts ignored it" I am telling them to take back power by force, what else are they supposed to do, Allow themselves to be conquered by a thief ? Ask for another investigation even though the courts ignored it before?
 

stevil

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If I tell people "there is undeniable proof the election was stolen and the courts ignored it" I am telling them to take back power by force, what else are they supposed to do, Allow themselves to be conquered by a thief ? Ask for another investigation even though the courts ignored it before?
Before I risk my freedom, my life and put it on the line for this politician, I'd certainly be demanding to see the evidence for myself rather than take this politician's word for it.

I'd also be wondering why the judges, handpicked and appointed by this politician are ruling against his cases of voter fraud.
 
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hedrick

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The issue isn't fraud. There's no significant amount of fraud and everyone knows it. Rather, many states loosened rules to help during the epidemic. You can argue that some of those changes weren't legal. That's the only legitimate legal argument, not actual fraud. The cases that were thrown out mostly claimed that whole classes of voters voted in improper ways, and that their votes should be thrown out. The problem is that no judge is going to throw out the votes of people who followed the rules as they were told.

It's possible that courts will consider these arguments, and decide that in fact some states did allow voting that they shouldn't have. That would affect future elections. Indeed even without court decisions, some Republican states are trying to make sure the rules are tighter next time. Apparently everyone, including Trump, thinks that if everyone votes, Republicans lose. I was pleased to find that Republican officials are not willing to fudge counts. But that doesn't mean they want it to happen again. Several Republican states are going to try to restrict voting. Democrats are going to try to pass voting rights laws to prevent this.
 
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iarwain

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many states loosened rules to help during the epidemic. You can argue that some of those changes weren't legal. That's the only legitimate legal argument, not actual fraud.
I'm on the skeptical side, I'm not so convinced that the changes were made solely because of the pandemic. If that were the case, why do they want to make those changes permanent, and for the entire nation?
 
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hedrick

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I'm on the skeptical side, I'm not so convinced that the changes were made solely because of the pandemic. If that were the case, why do they want to make those changes permanent, and for the entire nation?
Because they worked better than expected. It increased the number of people voting. Many if us think that’s a good thing.
 
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iarwain

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Because they worked better than expected. It increased the number of people voting. Many if us think that’s a good thing.
I've never bought into this idea that everybody should vote. They have the right to vote, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea, if they don't keep themselves informed. A lot of people vote for a party as if they were a favorite sports team.
 
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Ringo84

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Depends on how someone act on that. If they say, "I don't think the election was on the up and up", that's just talk.

Rioting at the Capitol and threatening members of Congress because Dear Leader didn't win? That's sedition.
Ringo
 
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cow451

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Is there any evidence that higher turnout helps Democrats? Looking at the last 40 years of presidential elections I don't see a correlation.
I have reached the same conclusion. If anything, the GOP is hurting itself by the attempts to reduce turnout.
 
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cow451

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I've never bought into this idea that everybody should vote. They have the right to vote, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea, if they don't keep themselves informed. A lot of people vote for a party as if they were a favorite sports team.
Which is perfectly legal. My opinion about the definition of a "low information voter" may not be the same as yours. That's why the Constitution protects the right to vote.
 
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hedrick

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Is there any evidence that higher turnout helps Democrats? Looking at the last 40 years of presidential elections I don't see a correlation.
In some cases the laws are based on looking at the specifics of how Democrats vote, and also of making it a bit harder to register. The hope is that this will suppress younger voters. But it does seem to be a gamble. Some of it seems to be based on the last election, where Democrats used mail in voting more heavily. Thus Republicans are rushing to stop mail voting. But there are specific reasons that happened. Democrats tended to be more concerned about Covid. In the longer run, I’d expect older voters to prefer mail in voting. It’s quite possible that the efforts will fail or even backfire. After all, Pennsylvania Republicans initially supported mail voting. That’s why it was established.

A lot of this is based on the Big Lie that Biden won because of fraud in mail in voting. In general you’d expect that decisions based on lies would tend not to accomplish the intended goal.
 
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cow451

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I'm on the skeptical side, I'm not so convinced that the changes were made solely because of the pandemic. If that were the case, why do they want to make those changes permanent, and for the entire nation?
GA touted it’s Republican “liberal”changes to voting laws passed just a few years ago. Now the same political party is acting like they never heard of any such thing!
 
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cow451

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I've never bought into this idea that everybody should vote. They have the right to vote, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea, if they don't keep themselves informed. A lot of people vote for a party as if they were a favorite sports team.
And?
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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Sorry I just don't understand Trump supporters

If I tell people "there is undeniable proof the election was stolen and the courts ignored it" I am telling them to take back power by force, what else are they supposed to do, Allow themselves to be conquered by a thief ? Ask for another investigation even though the courts ignored it before?

The 2020 election, however fraudulent, is water under the bridge now. Politics is the art of the possible. You assess the situation you’re in at the moment, and work from there.

BTW, advocating armed overthrow of the government is not in and of itself illegal...
 
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Brihaha

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It is counterproductive for republicans to lie to constituents. They can because they don't seem to be held accountable. It is also completely counterintuitive to convince people of nonexistent voter fraud. Why will their voters actually vote next time if they're convinced there's an abundance of fraud. Demand honesty from politicians and hold dishonest, self-serving politicians accountable once in a while. And quit voting for letters! Let's vote for qualified, respectable candidates for a change!
 
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Albion

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Sorry I just don't understand Trump supporters

If I tell people "there is undeniable proof the election was stolen and the courts ignored it" I am telling them to take back power by force...
Nonsense. You aren't saying that at all. What you are telling them is that the election was affected by invalid votes, that's all--exactly what the loser of the previous election told her own supporters and continued to do for years after that election was decided .

The loser of the 2000 election was another who claimed that the results were not accurate and so rescinded his concession statement.

what else are they supposed to do, Allow themselves to be conquered by a thief ?
Why not? There have been many fraudulent elections in American history and the people lived with the results.

But more than that, this election was ratified by the Electors and Congress, which is what makes it official. A person can very well contend that the balloting included a number of fraudulent votes and even that some of them were orchestrated by certain political figures...and still agree that because the Electoral College and the Congress and the Courts failed to challenge the result, the nation is stuck with it.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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Generally, Trump and those who support him are far more concerned with coming elections than the last ones. It seems that it’s Trump’s critics in both parties that simply cannot get over the fact that he and many of his supporters will not say that the election is free and fair. It’s not enough that they get their way - the demand that there must be consensus of public opinion. What upsets them is that they no longer control be boundaries of acceptable public discourse. That is why they have gone to such great lengths to drive speech they don’t like from social media. That’s is the aim behind cancel culture. Scolding people doesn’t work, so they do what they can to stop the discussion of issue they can’t or won’t debate, which is quite a few issues, really.
 
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