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Circumcision & the Sabbath?

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by random person, Mar 6, 2014.

  1. OGM

    OGM Newbie

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    Can't imagine remembering 612!
     
  2. Mercy74

    Mercy74 Mercy Messianic Judaism

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    Did Abraham keep all 613 laws? (Genesis 26:5)
     
  3. Mercy74

    Mercy74 Mercy Messianic Judaism

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    Abraham walked by faith; Abraham circumcised every male in his household including his servants. Circumcision must be kept even during the Sabbath.
     
  4. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Either there are good or bad reasons for someone to become circumcised or Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US (Galatians 5:2) and Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy (Acts 16:3). We should be careful not to take something that was only against becoming circumcised for the wrong reasons as being against obeying what God has commanded, especially because the Jerusalem Council did not have the authority to countermand God or to tell Gentiles not to obey any of His commands.

    In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision. So the problem was that circumcision was being used for a man-made purpose that went above and beyond the purpose that God had commanded it for, which means that the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against that requirement. A ruling against requiring something that God never commanded should not be mistaken as being a ruling in rebellion against obeying what God has commanded.

    A Gentile who consented to becoming circumcised was becoming a Jewish proselyte and was agreeing to live as a Jew according to all of their mountains of oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences, and doing all of those works of the law in order to become saved, and this is what the Jerusalem Council was ruling against, not ruling in rebellion against obeying God's Law.

    In 1 Corinthians 7:19, Paul said that circumcision has no value, that what matters is obeying God's commands, however, he also said in Romans 3:1-2 that circumcision has much value in every way, so the issue is that the value of circumcision is entirely derived from whether we obey God's Law (Romans 2:25). In Romans 2:26, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's Law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 10:12-16).

    The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of God's Law, so the Law was given to teach us about who He is, how to walk in His ways, how to express His character traits in accordance with His nature, and how to grow in a relationship with Him. By expressing God's character traits through our actions in obedience to His Law, such as holiness, righteousness, and goodness, we are acting as a light to the nations by testifying about who God is (Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 49:6, Matthew 5:13-16. In Deuteronomy 4:5-8, the intended reaction of the nations seeing Israel's obedience to God's Law was to marvel and how great and wise He is, so again their obedience was about testifying to who God is and the Law was intended to be used as a tool to evangelize the nations and to bless the nations by teaching them to repent from their wickedness and how to walk in God's ways, to the Jew first and then to the Gentile (Acts 3:26).

    So when Gentiles see Jews walking in the ways of the God of Israel and expressing His character traits in obedience to His Law, it is something that Gentiles should want to become part of. In Genesis 17:12, God commanded Abraham's entire household to become circumcised, including any foreigners who were bought with money, so it should desirable for Gentiles to want to become sons of the faith of Abraham and to want to physically identify with the God of Abraham. In Exodus 12:48, Gentiles were required to become circumcised in order to eat of the Passover lamb, so again this should be desirable for Gentiles. In Psalms 19:7-11, it expresses the correct view of God's Law, which we should shared by all who consider the Psalms to be Scripture, in which he said God's Law was more to be desired than fine gold and sweeter than honey. David repeatedly said throughout the Psalms that he loved God's Law and delighted in obeying it, and Paul also delighted in obeying it (Romans 7:22), so yes, there are correct reasons why a Gentile should desire to become circumcised, though Gentiles should still be careful to avoid becoming circumcised for the wrong reasons.
     
  5. Mercy74

    Mercy74 Mercy Messianic Judaism

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    Paul the son of a Pharisee explained why the Jews wanted the gentiles to become circumcised; that is so that they may boast and claim them as their disciples (Galatians 6:13). The purpose of circumcision was never to become members of an elite Jewish social club or become a proselyte. Circumcision on the 8th day is the permanent "sign" of the covenant that YHWH established with Abraham (Genesis 17:11) which shall reward those who keep the righteous requirements of the law with eternal life through faith in Yeshua the Christ..
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
  6. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    It was both spiritual and physical.

    As we read the events of Genesis 3, we see what death is: separation. First there is spiritual death, as Adam and Eve know they are separated from fellowship with God, whereas before sin, they enjoyed perfect fellowship with Him ( Genesis 3:8 implies that God had walked with Adam beforehand). The Lord knew where Adam was, but the question He asked him in verse 9—“Where are you?”—can also be applied to us. We see this developed in Romans 5:18: “Through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation.” God calls to the whole of the human race, “Where are you?”

    So Adam was already experiencing spiritual separation as he tried to hide with Eve from the presence of God and as he tried to clothe himself with leaves, which would wither. God then pronounces that Adam would die physically when He says, “To dust you shall return” (Genesis 3:19). And some nine hundred or so years later, Adam dies physically (we do not know how long it was between the Creation of Adam and the Fall).
     
  7. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Of course, Adam could have died physically even if he never disobeyed God and "fell".
    The existence of the tree of Life in the garden before he fall, Which Adam was told he could "freely eat" of (or not) proves that physical immortality was not an inherent characteristic of Humanity before the fall.
    Spiritual Immortality was, but not physical immortality.
    Partaking of the tree of life was NECESSARY for Adam to maintain permanent physical life, even before the fall.
     
  8. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Why would you have to? They do not all apply to any one person...
     
  9. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    You are incorrect. NO ONE, not even Yeshua kept ALL the commandments. No one person could. Exodus 16 was before Sinai. There was Torah prior to Sinai...

    "And YeHoVaH said unto Moshe, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws (Torah)?"

    Shavout (Pentecost was counted 50 days from the day after the Sabbath of Pesakh...ie a Sunday). That is why...
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2019
  10. Mercy74

    Mercy74 Mercy Messianic Judaism

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    The tree of life is a spiritual tree.
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Then so was the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

    And even if so, it does not at all change or refute my point.

    Partaking of that tree was NECESSARY for Adam to live Physically forever, even before the fall.
     
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