dreadnought

Lip service isn't really service.
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It seems to me there are two groups of people. One looks for the perfect church. The other loves their church, and when they spot imperfections in their church, they try to correct them.
 

mama2one

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It seems to me there are two groups of people. One looks for the perfect church. The other loves their church, and when they spot imperfections in their church, they try to correct them.

don't think it's that simple as in either/or
 
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Dave-W

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Reminds me of a statement pastor Charles Simpson (sbc) said:

If you are looking for the perfect church, give up because you will never find one. BUT IF YOU DO, don't join it; because the minute you do, it will no longer be perfect.
 
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Albion

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It seems to me there are two groups of people. One looks for the perfect church. The other loves their church, and when they spot imperfections in their church, they try to correct them.
What about the group that says all churches are either wrong or corrupted or unBiblical by nature...and so refuse to have anything to do with them, even while calling themselves Christians?
 
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dreadnought

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Reminds me of a statement pastor Charles Simpson (sbc) said:

If you are looking for the perfect church, give up because you will never find one. BUT IF YOU DO, don't join it; because the minute you do, it will no longer be perfect.
Well said.
 
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dreadnought

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What about the group that says all churches are either wrong or corrupted or unBiblical by nature...and so refuse to have anything to do with them, even while calling themselves Christians?
I always try to divide the world into two groups. When someone shows me there is a third group, it confuses me terribly. Okay, I guess you're right, though. People do get hurt in churches sometimes, though.
 
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HereIStand

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There are no perfect churches. As for trying to correct imperfections in a church, it depends on level of imperfections. Correcting minor problems is possible. Other times it's better to change churches, or for a church to close its doors. Churches have a calling and mission to live up to. They don't exist simply to perpetuate their existence.
 
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dreadnought

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There are no perfect churches. As for trying to correct imperfections in a church, it depends on level of imperfections. Correcting minor problems is possible. Other times it's better to change churches, or for a church to close its doors. Churches have a calling and mission to live up to. They don't exist simply to perpetuate their existence.
In our denomination, there is the local church. Each local church is part of a district. Each district is part of a conference. There can be things going on at the conference or district levels that I disapprove of. However, it has little to do with the local church. I've given up trying to change the conference or district. I just worry about what is happening in our local church.
 
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mama2one

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agree their are no perfect churches just as there are no perfect gathering of people

but we (our family) aren't looking for the perfect church
we attend several different ones and our child attends Sunday school at two churches and sits with us at couple other churches

don't think any one of us could choose only one
I do like to go Sunday evening but often husband and child don't want to so we don't go as often to the church open Sun eve.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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It seems to me there are two groups of people. One looks for the perfect church. The other loves their church, and when they spot imperfections in their church, they try to correct them.
In Scripture, what does Jesus say to look for ?
Have you read the Epistles ? How many times are the Ekklesia said to be living "in union" with Jesus and the Father ? When the Ekklesia are living in union with Jesus and the Father, are they "perfect"? Are they trying to change their church ?

What about a third group - much bigger perhaps than the 2 groups you mention -
people who don't care if their own church is sinning, and don't try to change it ?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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agree their are no perfect churches just as there are no perfect gathering of people
but we (our family) aren't looking for the perfect church
we attend several different ones and our child attends Sunday school at two churches and sits with us at couple other churches
I don't think any one of us could choose only one
What if doing that is perfect ? Doing what Jesus says every day trusting and relying on the Father every day, as written in Scripture - and meeting wherever God's people meet each day.
If that is not perfect, why not ?
 
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Albion

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In our denomination, there is the local church. Each local church is part of a district. Each district is part of a conference. There can be things going on at the conference or district levels that I disapprove of. However, it has little to do with the local church. I've given up trying to change the conference or district. I just worry about what is happening in our local church.

That set-up is true, more or less, for most denominations. And it is often the case that the local congregation can sidestep some of the mistakes made at the higher levels, usually by simply ignoring them. However, I sympathize with those people whose consciences cannot do that for one or more of the following reasons--

1. The wrong, whatever it is, typically is shoved in their faces by the denomination's publications and communications, even if the local pastor never says anything about the issue.

2. The denomination gets known by society as having endorsed that wrong, even if the local unit/congregation and the individual member oppose it. Therefore, the individual member is identified by the average onlooker as having accepted whatever the particular wrong happens to be.

3. The local church supports the district, conference, diocese, national church, or all of them, with its financial contributions. Therefore, the individual member of the local congregation is put into a bind of either not contributing to the local unit in order not to finance the higher-ups who have gone wrong, or else swallowing hard and going along anyway, contributing the usual amount, even though he is thereby supporting with his money the wrong that offends his conscience.
 
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dreadnought

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In Scripture, what does Jesus say to look for ?
Have you read the Epistles ? How many times are the Ekklesia said to be living "in union" with Jesus and the Father ? When the Ekklesia are living in union with Jesus and the Father, are they "perfect"? Are they trying to change their church ?

What about a third group - much bigger perhaps than the 2 groups you mention -
people who don't care if their own church is sinning, and don't try to change it ?
How are defining "Ekklesia"? Are you talking about those people who have repented of their sin, or are you referring to the local church?

Yes, I have read the Epistles.
 
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dreadnought

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In Scripture, what does Jesus say to look for ?
Have you read the Epistles ? How many times are the Ekklesia said to be living "in union" with Jesus and the Father ? When the Ekklesia are living in union with Jesus and the Father, are they "perfect"? Are they trying to change their church ?

What about a third group - much bigger perhaps than the 2 groups you mention -
people who don't care if their own church is sinning, and don't try to change it ?
If you believe the local church is without sin, I think you are mistaken. As for those who have repented of their sin, I guess they've done their job. Is there something more for them to do?
 
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dreadnought

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That set-up is true, more or less, for most denominations. And it is often the case that the local congregation can sidestep some of the mistakes made at the higher levels, usually by simply ignoring them. However, I sympathize with those people whose consciences cannot do that for one or more of the following reasons--

1. The wrong, whatever it is, typically is shoved in their faces by the denomination's publications and communications, even if the local pastor never says anything about the issue.

2. The denomination gets known by society as having endorsed that wrong, even if the local unit/congregation and the individual member oppose it. Therefore, the individual member is identified by the average onlooker as having accepted whatever the particular wrong happens to be.

3. The local church supports the district, conference, diocese, national church, or all of them, with its financial contributions. Therefore, the individual member of the local congregation is put into a bind of either not contributing to the local unit in order not to finance the higher-ups who have gone wrong, or else swallowing hard and going along anyway, contributing the usual amount, even though he is thereby supporting with his money the wrong that offends his conscience.
Yes, the conference and district can make the members of the local church uncomfortable with their ungodly proclamations, but I've been learning to ignore them.
 
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dreadnought

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That set-up is true, more or less, for most denominations. And it is often the case that the local congregation can sidestep some of the mistakes made at the higher levels, usually by simply ignoring them. However, I sympathize with those people whose consciences cannot do that for one or more of the following reasons--

1. The wrong, whatever it is, typically is shoved in their faces by the denomination's publications and communications, even if the local pastor never says anything about the issue.

2. The denomination gets known by society as having endorsed that wrong, even if the local unit/congregation and the individual member oppose it. Therefore, the individual member is identified by the average onlooker as having accepted whatever the particular wrong happens to be.

3. The local church supports the district, conference, diocese, national church, or all of them, with its financial contributions. Therefore, the individual member of the local congregation is put into a bind of either not contributing to the local unit in order not to finance the higher-ups who have gone wrong, or else swallowing hard and going along anyway, contributing the usual amount, even though he is thereby supporting with his money the wrong that offends his conscience.

Yes, the conference and district can make the members of the local church uncomfortable with their ungodly proclamations, but I've been learning to ignore them.
And there is still the problem that I don't think you are going to find a perfect church.
 
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Tigger45

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What about the group that says all churches are either wrong or corrupted or unBiblical by nature...and so refuse to have anything to do with them, even while calling themselves Christians?
Right, when ever I see this mentality of 'everyone else is wrong therefore I'm forced to go it alone', its typically a cover for social immaturity and stunts our spiritual growth. When someone offends me and I feel that 'old man' my sin nature rise up inside of me its a great barometer of how I'm doing spiritually and I can use that to my advantage. I think it takes the gift of humility to say 'my pastor isn't perfect but I'd bet if our roles were reversed he's doing a better job over all then I would.
 
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