Church services in defiance of government orders?

[Reborn1977]

Church services in defiance of government orders?


Throughout the country, there are some pastors, ministers, and church leaders who are continuing to hold church services even though the state government or the local government has placed restrictions upon doing so. Therefore these leaders are technically in defiance of a local ordinance.

Here are my questions to you on this topic.


When answering the questions please explain your position as thoroughly as possible, and if you feel your position is backed up by Scripture please provide that Scripture within your post.


1. In the middle of a health epidemic, is it morally, ethically, and spiritually responsible for ministers to be holding services where congregants are present? Why or Why not?


2. Do spiritual leaders have the right to hold said meetings, the spiritual right and the constitutional right? Elaborate on your beliefs.


3. The ministers that are being cited or jailed for holding meetings or services with more than 10 people, are they being treated fairly or unfairly? Why are why not?


4. Most importantly, is a minister who is holding these services being fair, properly shepherding, the people that God has given them to minister to? How did you reach your conclusion?

 

[GospelS]

Is the Church leader(s) urged by the Holy Spirit as Paul was when he ministered against the local authorities? If that is God's doing, then I will be speaking against the Holy Spirit that is working through them if I think/say they are responsible/irresponsible toward local/state orders. More than the local/state governments, they are responsible to fulfill their highest calling when they are urged by the Holy Spirit.

Sorry. I'm not able to elaborate on your other questions at the moment.

 

[Messerve]

Church services in defiance of government orders?


Throughout the country, there are some pastors, ministers, and church leaders who are continuing to hold church services even though the state government or the local government has placed restrictions upon doing so. Therefore these leaders are technically in defiance of a local ordinance.

Here are my questions to you on this topic.


When answering the questions please explain your position as thoroughly as possible, and if you feel your position is backed up by Scripture please provide that Scripture within your post.


1. In the middle of a health epidemic, is it morally, ethically, and spiritually responsible for ministers to be holding services where congregants are present? Why or Why not?


2. Do spiritual leaders have the right to hold said meetings, the spiritual right and the constitutional right? Elaborate on your beliefs.


3. The ministers that are being cited or jailed for holding meetings or services with more than 10 people, are they being treated fairly or unfairly? Why are why not?


4. Most importantly, is a minister who is holding these services being fair, properly shepherding, the people that God has given them to minister to? How did you reach your conclusion?

1. They should not continue business as usual, but I do think churches should find a way for people to come there for spiritual refreshment especially in times like this. For the church to have it's doors totally closed does not feel right to me at all. Liquor stores have found a way to open up again, for goodness sakes! I'm guessing they're mainly doing deliveries. Can't the church do something?
2. I believe churches do have a right to continue holding services to a point, however to neglect the welfare of their community is not okay either and a really bad witness.
3. Yes I think jailing is wrong. A citation and fine, maybe.
4. Without taking any extra precautions in the face of a pandemic, no, ministers are not being good shepherds. A shepherd looks out for the welfare of the flock, and possibly causing them to infect each other is not responsible at all. There are ways of working around that, I think, if they put their minds to it. Actually, an outdoor service isn't a terrible idea because it allows people to spread out more. I think that's totally fine as long as people give each other distance. If people do.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Church services in defiance of government orders?


Throughout the country, there are some pastors, ministers, and church leaders who are continuing to hold church services even though the state government or the local government has placed restrictions upon doing so. Therefore these leaders are technically in defiance of a local ordinance.

Here are my questions to you on this topic.


When answering the questions please explain your position as thoroughly as possible, and if you feel your position is backed up by Scripture please provide that Scripture within your post.


1. In the middle of a health epidemic, is it morally, ethically, and spiritually responsible for ministers to be holding services where congregants are present? Why or Why not?


2. Do spiritual leaders have the right to hold said meetings, the spiritual right and the constitutional right? Elaborate on your beliefs.


3. The ministers that are being cited or jailed for holding meetings or services with more than 10 people, are they being treated fairly or unfairly? Why are why not?


4. Most importantly, is a minister who is holding these services being fair, properly shepherding, the people that God has given them to minister to? How did you reach your conclusion?

If it were me--and it is me in the case--I'd first be considering the fact that we're to love other people, including our families, knowing that love "protects." So, we should ask ourselves: are we 'protecting' our neighbors, whether they're Christian or non-Christian, by being negligent and getting 'together' in the middle of a viral pandemic anyway? I think it's somewhat questionable to do so, really. Besides, it's not like we're exactly the Hebrews being clearly separated and led by Moses against Pharaoh.

Secondly, being that Jesus and Paul and Peter said we should render to our Governments that which is properly due to our God-instituted governments by way of reasonable obedience, we should do so, as long as the ordinances and laws that are made and enacted don't ask us to, of course (duh!), renounce our faith in Jesus Christ.

Personally, I'm not sure why all of this is so very hard for folks, Christian or otherwise, to figure out.

 

[Messerve]

If it were me--and it is me in the case--I'd first be considering the fact that we're to love other people, including our families, knowing that love "protects." So, we should ask ourselves: are we 'protecting' our neighbors, whether they're Christian or non-Christian, by being negligent and getting 'together' in the middle of a viral pandemic anyway? I think that's somewhat questionable really. Besides, it's not like we're exactly the Hebrews being clearly separated and led by Moses against Pharaoh.

Secondly, being that Jesus and Paul and Peter said we should render to our Governments that which is properly due to our God-instituted governments by way of reasonable obedience, we should do so, as long as the ordinances and laws that are made and enacted don't ask us to, of course (duh!), renounce our faith in Jesus Christ.

Personally, I'm not sure why all of this is so very hard for folks, Christian or otherwise, to figure out.

Yeah my biggest issue is the Church being so inaccessible right now despite other places finding ways to stay open. That really bothers me. I think if there's one thing we'll look back at and regret is that the Church focused more on catering to it's own people than the people who may be seeking during this time.

I think the Church has done great on the first point with Zoom meetings and streamed services and all. But the harvest is ripe and we haven't innovated as we should to make sure the harvest is brought in.

 

[Reborn1977]

Liquor stores have found a way to open up again

Nice point!
I actually made an inquiry about this because they are open for business in my area. I was told they are classed as "essential" in the service they provide.
This speaks to our society. Liquor is essential in their minds. They need to be open, churches need to be closed with pastors being jailed - what twisted thinking. No one forces a person to go to either one, a liquor store or a church.

 

[mmksparbud]

No one is banning church services---they are wanting them done in a manner that does not put others in danger!

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Pastors should know better.
God expects us to use our brains.
M-Bob

 

[Reborn1977]

So, we should ask ourselves: are we 'protecting' our neighbors, whether they're Christian or non-Christian, by being negligent and getting 'together' in the middle of a viral pandemic anyway?

I like it!
We do have a responsibility to one another to care for each other. I do not have the virus, but metaphorically speaking, if I give the virus to my brethren have I cared for them with agape love.

 

[Emsmom1]

To me, gathering in a pandemic is akin to snake handling--doing something blatantly dangerous and expecting God to protect you.

 

[Reborn1977]

Pastors should know better.
God expects us to use our brains.
M-Bob

There will be those Pastors that truly believe continuing with services is what God wants them to do. That said, congregants have a responsibility before God to make their own choices.

 

[Reborn1977]

To me, gathering in a pandemic is akin to snake handling--doing something blatantly dangerous and expecting God to protect you.

Well said...you better be sure before you pick up that snake that God has told you to do so, otherwise, it is going to kill you. Plus it could be viewed as testing the grace of God.

 

[Emsmom1]

There will be those Pastors that truly believe continuing with services is what God wants them to do. That said, congregants have a responsibility before God to make their own choices.

Yes, but the pastor should not be encouraging it by having the church open, in my opinion.

 

[Reborn1977]

my biggest issue is the Church being so inaccessible right now despite other places finding ways to stay open.

Yes, despite ideas to the contrary, there are places where the church is "inaccessible right now" and that is disconcerting.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

if I give the virus to my brethren have I cared for them with agape love.

No, it will be yet another sin added to a long list.
M

 

[Emsmom1]

1 Peter 13-15
13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

 

[Reborn1977]

No, it will be yet another sin added to a long list.
M

I hope you were not thinking that was a real question. Hence, the period (.) and not a question mark (?).
Your reply indicates you might have.
I was making the point that the idea is ridiculous (that risking my fellow brethren's health by exposing or possibly exposing them to this virus is not the type of agape love Jesus meant for us to show one another.)


Here is my entire statement in context:
"We do have a responsibility to one another to care for each other. I do not have the virus, but metaphorically speaking, if I give the virus to my brethren have I cared for them with agape love."

 

[Albion]

Yeah my biggest issue is the Church being so inaccessible right now despite other places finding ways to stay open.

I don't know of any church that is actually inaccessible. HOW it chooses to use its facilities is almost totally in their own control, and the issue here is wanting to use it in way that is dangerous. There is no reason that a church cannot operate, however. Just alter the particular way the premises are made usable and accessible.

For example, if "no more than ten people" is the rule, why do these churches insist upon packing every congregant in for a single Sunday service as is the usual format...rather than having six services for a little while?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Church services in defiance of government orders?

Throughout the country, there are some pastors, ministers, and church leaders who are continuing to hold church services even though the state government or the local government has placed restrictions upon doing so. Therefore these leaders are technically in defiance of a local ordinance.

Here are my questions to you on this topic.

When answering the questions please explain your position as thoroughly as possible, and if you feel your position is backed up by Scripture please provide that Scripture within your post.

1. In the middle of a health epidemic, is it morally, ethically, and spiritually responsible for ministers to be holding services where congregants are present? Why or Why not?

It is in accordance with scripture. While quarantine for illness/communicable diseases is in the Bible, there is no instance of quarantining those who are healthy, only quarantine for those who are ill.

Second, there is no ungathered church. The word in the Bible is ecclesia, which means congregation, in both old and new testaments... therefore without the physical church there is no church...

It doesn't have to be a building it can be smaller groups but key is gathering together for teaching, edification, support (emotional and otherwise) etc

People who propose internet streaming a pastor while your alone in your home are proposing abolishing the church itself...

and these promoters will find themselves someday having the same arguments they used to allow this abolishing, against them when they try and encourage new Christians to be a part of the physical church.

2. Do spiritual leaders have the right to hold said meetings, the spiritual right and the constitutional right? Elaborate on your beliefs.

Yes. The Bible is prescriptive not descriptive on the role that government should have, but there are times we will need to stand up for our faith, and not bow down before men.

There are still no cases of coronavirus in my county, not one. However my governor has declared it illegal (punishable by law) to gather for church, even if it's outside and even if all social distancing rules are followed, and the sheriff has declared he will enforce it if we try for small groups with all other rules of limiting size and social distancing being followed...

That's an overstep of the government's authority, and all who say okay no more church, are not, in my personal opinion, reading enough scripture... people have died for saying no, their faith is more important than any government making church illegal..

Yet Americans are agreeing and bowing to man, instead of God.

3. The ministers that are being cited or jailed for holding meetings or services with more than 10 people, are they being treated fairly or unfairly? Why are why not?

Unfairly. Because they are following their faith, and faith takes precedence over all else...

4. Most importantly, is a minister who is holding these services being fair, properly shepherding, the people that God has given them to minister to? How did you reach your conclusion?

I've done my best to answer you, the way I see it.

We all have to weigh doing what right before men and doing what's right before God, and for each of us it may look different.. but how do we look at those who risk their life daily just for daring to call themselves Christian and having a Bible, and tell them we are too fearful of illness and government to do the same?

How can we say we worship the same God even as those who trust God in action?

I went through a health crises a few months back and I saw in that time a very weak faith in myself, and I've been working on that weakness ever since..

I believe we ALL need to do the same... we seem as a culture to be lacking in faith, when we don't trust God with our life, all of it.. in sickness and in health as we are the Bride of Christ

 

[Reborn1977]

While quarantine for illness/communicable diseases is in the Bible, there is no instance of quarantining those who are healthy, only quarantine for those who are ill.

True, when their disease was evident. However, with this virus, we still do not know who has it and who does not have it among the general population as there is still much testing to be done. Also, people have it long before they have signs whatsoever, and can spread it to other people. It is a difficult situation.

There are still no cases of coronavirus in my county, not one. However my governor has declared it illegal (punishable by law) to gather for church, even if it's outside and even if all social distancing rules are followed, and the sheriff has declared he will enforce it if we try for small groups with all other rules of limiting size and social distancing being followed...

That's an overstep of the government's authority, and all who say okay no more church, are not, in my personal opinion, reading enough scripture... people have died for saying no, their faith is more important than any government making church illegal..

Yet Americans are agreeing and bowing to man, instead of God.

It is sad to read what you have written that is going on in your country. Although I am confused. Your profile page indicates you are in the USA yet you say you do not have a single case in your country. Your profile also indicates you went on a break from the forum in August 2019 (hacked account)?

This thread is not about judging people, it is a discussion of a moral, ethical, and spiritual dilemma that many ministers are facing. Please reframe from your negative comments about Americans.