Church Reconstruction and Architecture

[Paul Yohannan]

I wish they had rebuilt Coventry Cathedral rather than leaving the old one in ruins and building an ulgy modern replacement.

 

[Philip_B]

If Coventry was the worst we wouldn't have a problem. When you read Sir Basil Spence (architect of new Coventry) you find a discussion about the relationship between transcendence and immanence. Recently architects I have reading discussion the importance of access to the Kitchen. Much less ennobling. Lots of things about New Coventry are pluses, the light, the height, the chapels. I like how it reflects something of the offering of an industrial city.

The images I associate with the Cathedral the Great Pantocrator Tapestry seems awkward and out of proportion. Visiting it gave me a very different perspective. I don't love the tapestry, but I had more respect for it belonging in the space. And the space does render both transcendence and immanence in a way that very few of the modern Cathedrals do.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I wish they had rebuilt Coventry Cathedral rather than leaving the old one in ruins and building an ulgy modern replacement.

I wish the same about St. Boniface Cathedral in Winnipeg; it burnt and instead of restoring it, they stabalized the facade and walls, made the nave a courtyard, and built a modern glass, angular box behind it.

The statuary is hideous:

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I wish the same about St. Boniface Cathedral in Winnipeg; it burnt and instead of restoring it, they stabalized the facade and walls, made the nave a courtyard, and built a modern glass, angular box behind it.

The statuary is hideous:

Is that ACC or RC?

 

[Paidiske]

For an interesting story about a church taking its time and very carefully discerning its way forward in replacing a destroyed cathedral, have a look at what Christchurch have done with the cardboard cathedral. I've been in there, and it's honestly astonishing to look around and know that you're basically standing inside a cardboard box!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

RC. I visited that Church back in 1978. Since that time, with the establishment of the offices of Lutheran Church Canada in close proximity; the Bishop of Winnipeg and our national Bishop have developed a close friendship since that time.

Lots of history out there. Louis Riel was Metis, and the Metis wanted their own country, so they started what is now known as "The Red River Rebellion". The rebellion was suppressed, Louis was arrested, and Hung in 1885 as a traitor in Regina (North West Territories) now Saskatchewan.

He tried to break Canada apart, yet today, because of the Metis, Aboriginal and French communities, he is now a "National Hero". They don't get that if they had been allowed their way, they lively would have been annex by the USA; and as a race, would have fared far less well than they have under Canadian Government; but they still see themselves as a repressed sovereign state, just as Quebec does.

Both are doing very well despite Canadian subjugation.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

For an interesting story about a church taking its time and very carefully discerning its way forward in replacing a destroyed cathedral, have a look at what Christchurch have done with the cardboard cathedral. I've been in there, and it's honestly astonishing to look around and know that you're basically standing inside a cardboard box!

Most interesting; do you have photos?

And a Blessed Nativity to you!

 

[Paidiske]

The best look at it I can find quickly is here:

You don't need to watch the whole thing to get an idea.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The best look at it I can find quickly is here:

You don't need to watch the whole thing to get an idea.

Thanks for posting this; the light inside is amazing due to the Poly-carbonate panels; and it is more "churchy" than St. Boniface. Have plans been drawn for the next phase of transition? It makes me mindful of Kramer Chapel at our sem in Fr. Wayne Indiana:

This gives an idea of scale:

Also, since these are off topic, I am splitting them off into another thread.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Split off of this thread and moved to General Theology: The Cathedral of St. John the Divine

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Now in Holy Orthodoxy, when the need arises to rebuild a destroyed cathedral, we don't mess around:

 

[Paidiske]

I don't know where the plans are at for Christchurch. When I was there, about two years ago now, there was an ugly legal situation going on, because although the church planned to replace the destroyed cathedral (and honestly, I saw the old one, it was completely smashed in on one side; I can't see how anyone could think restoration was a reasonable option), members of the Christchurch community who were not necessarily churchgoers but who valued the "iconic" status of the cathedral and what it represented in terms of the identity of the city and so forth, were trying to force the church to restore the old one rather than build a new. (I haven't followed the story to know whether that's been resolved).

The transitional cathedral was intended to give them ten years to discern and plan; they're halfway through that, and I know that, for example, some of the team toured the world to look at other cathedrals, good and bad, to think about what they wanted their cathedral to say theologically and about who they are as Anglicans in Christchurch, and so on. They're very deliberately trying to do the best they can for their congregations and for the city. Which (I hope) means that whatever emerges should be really interesting and a worthwhile fruit of the time and care they've taken. I really respected the wisdom that put a stop gap in place to give them time to grieve and breathe and dream.

Paul, that building is beautiful! The light in the dome is stunning. What had happened to its predecessor?

 

[Paul Yohannan]

and honestly, I saw the old one, it was completely smashed in on one side; I can't see how anyone could think restoration was a reasonable option),

The Frauenkirche in Dresden was rebuilt from less.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Paul, that building is beautiful! The light in the dome is stunning. What had happened to its predecessor?

Bolshevism.

The same thing that halpend to St. Savior's in Moscow, and to the patriarch St. Tikhon, and numerous martyrs and hieromartyrs.

 

[Paidiske]

The Frauenkirche in Dresden was rebuilt from less.

And that might have been the right decision for them (although I note it took 50 years to get to that point). I think what made the church cranky in Christchurch was that secular folks, who never set foot in it to worship, (or put money into its life, mission or fabric), suddenly felt they wanted it to be a particular thing that wasn't necessarily what the worshipping community itself had discerned as the way forward.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

And that might have been the right decision for them (although I note it took 50 years to get to that point). I think what made the church cranky in Christchurch was that secular folks, who never set foot in it to worship, (or put money into its life, mission or fabric), suddenly felt they wanted it to be a particular thing that wasn't necessarily what the worshipping community itself had discerned as the way forward.

This could be a valid consideration. There is however a question of cultural heritage. In several cases, I am aware of ecclesiastical authorities wanting to do something that would have amounted to cultural vandalism.

When this relates to the reconstruction of damaged churches, let us consider a hypothetical: suppose a catastrophic earthquake were to strike Paris. Would it not be appropriate to rebuild Notre Dame, Montmarte, et cetera, according to their historic plan?

Now, you can say, Christchurch is not Paris, but for New Zealanders, who lack ease of access to the sort of Christian heritage available to Europeans, it is still substantial, and I do believe the community as a whole should have a say when it comes to the reconstruction of dakaged church buildings of historical importance.

 

[Paidiske]

I am not sure that I agree that the thing would be to try to rebuild history.

Partly my take on that comes from having worked in our cathedral here for several years. It's a beautiful building, and it is a significant piece of cultural heritage. It's also a 19th century building with some significant design flaws (seriously? Who thought putting the fuse box in a location in the tower where you needed to send the electrician in on a safety harness to replace a blown fuse was smart design?), and, from a 21st-century point of view, some dreadful oversights (putting the toilets in the crypt, in a location not accessible to the general public, makes for very poor hospitality; when you have to send worshippers across the road to McDonalds to relieve their bladders!)

So although if this building were to be destroyed, I would grieve, because it is special to me and to my city, I hope I would also have the vision to say, we can build something which better meets our current and future needs. Not something that lacks any continuity with the past (and not a piece of cultural vandalism), but something more creative than a straight rebuilding.

I've never been to the great and ancient churches of the world, and maybe it feels different when we're talking about much longer stretches of worshipping history, but to me there seems something unhealthy about wanting to enshrine the past such that we cannot move into the future with vision and creativity either.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

And that might have been the right decision for them (although I note it took 50 years to get to that point). I think what made the church cranky in Christchurch was that secular folks, who never set foot in it to worship, (or put money into its life, mission or fabric), suddenly felt they wanted it to be a particular thing that wasn't necessarily what the worshipping community itself had discerned as the way forward.

Stakeholder management and risk assessment regarding stakeholders can be the single most difficult part of any project; and sometimes the stakeholders with the least authority are the most engaged, and if there is enough of them, they can end up with more power over a project than their prior involvement should warrant.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I am not sure that I agree that the thing would be to try to rebuild history.

Partly my take on that comes from having worked in our cathedral here for several years. It's a beautiful building, and it is a significant piece of cultural heritage. It's also a 19th century building with some significant design flaws (seriously? Who thought putting the fuse box in a location in the tower where you needed to send the electrician in on a safety harness to replace a blown fuse was smart design?), and, from a 21st-century point of view, some dreadful oversights (putting the toilets in the crypt, in a location not accessible to the general public, makes for very poor hospitality; when you have to send worshippers across the road to McDonalds to relieve their bladders!)

So although if this building were to be destroyed, I would grieve, because it is special to me and to my city, I hope I would also have the vision to say, we can build something which better meets our current and future needs. Not something that lacks any continuity with the past (and not a piece of cultural vandalism), but something more creative than a straight rebuilding.

I've never been to the great and ancient churches of the world, and maybe it feels different when we're talking about much longer stretches of worshipping history, but to me there seems something unhealthy about wanting to enshrine the past such that we cannot move into the future with vision and creativity either.

If you walk through the hallowed halls of the great cathedrals of Europe, you can perceive in them an iconographic representation of the Church as a whole, and the connection to the departed faithful is expressed owing to their antiquity. A great number were rebuilt after fairly severe damage during the second world war, and I am thankful for this reconstruction.

Places of worship can provide a link to our past, which in turn ties in with the Latin etymology of the word "religion," which does I think rather aptly describe an aspect of the Christian faith.

Now that having been said, I will admit my perspective might be shaped a bit by being a member of a church that is allergic to even minor changes.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Stakeholder management and risk assessment regarding stakeholders can be the single most difficult part of any project; and sometimes the stakeholders with the least authority are the most engaged, and if there is enough of them, they can end up with more power over a project than their prior involvement should warrant.

While I am generally not a fan of a heavily governmental approach, when it comes to urban areas, and models of urban planning, I have come to believe that an approach focused on aesthetic continuity is preferrable to one in which the appearance of structures and in particular the management of major public spaces is handled on a laissez-fare basis.