Church of Sweden to formally stop referring to God as "he"

ViaCrucis

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Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Man was created in the image of God, and woman was created from Man.

Genesis 2:22
The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.

"So God created humans in His image, in the image of God He created them; male and female He created them." - Genesis 1:27

The word translated as "man" or "human" is adam, and that word means "human", not "male".

וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים נַֽעֲשֶׂה אָדָם בְּצַלְמֵנוּ כִּדְמוּתֵנוּ וְיִרְדּוּ בִדְגַת הַיָּם וּבְעֹוף הַשָּׁמַיִם וּבַבְּהֵמָה וּבְכָל־הָאָרֶץ וּבְכָל־הָרֶמֶשׂ הָֽרֹמֵשׂ עַל־הָאָֽרֶץ׃
וַיִּבְרָא אֱלֹהִים אֶת־הָֽאָדָם בְּצַלְמֹו בְּצֶלֶם אֱלֹהִים בָּרָא אֹתֹו זָכָר וּנְקֵבָה בָּרָא אֹתָֽם׃
(Genesis 1:26-27)

We see it also rendered in the LXX as anthropos, which also means "human":

καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός ποιήσωμεν ἄνθρωπον κατ᾽ εἰκόνα ἡμετέραν καὶ καθ᾽ ὁμοίωσιν καὶ ἀρχέτωσαν τῶν ἰχθύων τῆς θαλάσσης καὶ τῶν πετεινῶν τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καὶ τῶν κτηνῶν καὶ πάσης τῆς γῆς καὶ πάντων τῶν ἑρπετῶν τῶν ἑρπόντων ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν ἄνθρωπον κατ᾽ εἰκόνα θεοῦ ἐποίησεν αὐτόν ἄρσεν καὶ θῆλυ ἐποίησεν αὐτούς
(Genesis 1:26-27)

God created human beings in the Divine Image, not just males.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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The Times

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If one considers the Holy Ghost and how the person of the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father (Nicene Creed), it is self evident that the Father must remain the Father. To make the Father anything else, would stray from the Nicene Creed and therefore give way to the redefinition of the Father. This would be by virtue apostasy on an unprecedented and grand scale.

Ask yourselves one question...who would want to redefine the gender of the Father?

Satan.

People, please listen, the Gnostic Temple of THEOLA is real and was vailed within the main body of Christianity, even amongst high ranking bishopric and it has only now being let out of the bag so to speak.

Gnosticism hid within Christianity and it was restrained until the Man of Sin or should I say People (Anthropos) of Sin were revealed in our time, who push for an Androgynous genderless society and all the manifestations of evil therein.

Wake up!

It is not too late for church leaders to leave the ecumenical movement and to sack half their clergy and bishops for pushing the lie of the enemy.
 
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hedrick

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Vicomte13

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"So God created humans in His image, in the image of God He created them; male and female He created them." - Genesis 1:27

The word translated as "man" or "human" is adam, and that word means "human", not "male".

וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים נַֽעֲשֶׂה אָדָם בְּצַלְמֵנוּ כִּדְמוּתֵנוּ וְיִרְדּוּ בִדְגַת הַיָּם וּבְעֹוף הַשָּׁמַיִם וּבַבְּהֵמָה וּבְכָל־הָאָרֶץ וּבְכָל־הָרֶמֶשׂ הָֽרֹמֵשׂ עַל־הָאָֽרֶץ׃
וַיִּבְרָא אֱלֹהִים אֶת־הָֽאָדָם בְּצַלְמֹו בְּצֶלֶם אֱלֹהִים בָּרָא אֹתֹו זָכָר וּנְקֵבָה בָּרָא אֹתָֽם׃
(Genesis 1:26-27)

We see it also rendered in the LXX as anthropos, which also means "human":

καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός ποιήσωμεν ἄνθρωπον κατ᾽ εἰκόνα ἡμετέραν καὶ καθ᾽ ὁμοίωσιν καὶ ἀρχέτωσαν τῶν ἰχθύων τῆς θαλάσσης καὶ τῶν πετεινῶν τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καὶ τῶν κτηνῶν καὶ πάσης τῆς γῆς καὶ πάντων τῶν ἑρπετῶν τῶν ἑρπόντων ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν ἄνθρωπον κατ᾽ εἰκόνα θεοῦ ἐποίησεν αὐτόν ἄρσεν καὶ θῆλυ ἐποίησεν αὐτούς
(Genesis 1:26-27)

God created human beings in the Divine Image, not just males.

-CryptoLutheran

This, by the way, is precisely why the Catholic Church modified various hymns and parts of the liturgy, and corrected its translation of the Bible, to make it very clear that when "man" means "mankind", it is so rendered. Where the male principle is integral to the text, as in referring to the Father or the Son, the male pronoun is used, but where the word "man" means "human", that is made clear also. Thus the old song "Born to raise the sons of earth, born to give them second birth..." is today sung "Born to raise us from the earth, born to give us second birth", lest people confuse themselves with a masculine emphasis that is not intended.

Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are "he" because they are so revealed. But "man" is "humankind", and "them", as opposed to "man" and "he", when speaking generally. It would seem to be superfluous to have taken all the trouble to make clear what is clear, but then one need only look at this thread to see why the exercise has to be undertaken: people will give theological importance, and countersenses, to things based on literalism, and chauvinism, as if Christians were Muslims!
 
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2Timothy2:15

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It does not bother me that much. I am sure that God is as much a mother as he is a father.

Well since we have evidence in scripture over and over that he is the Father that would negate this heretical teaching. The counterfeit church in action and the undiscerning body is unable to correct it.
 
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redleghunter

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It is a grammatical error. You can't use "he" where "it" is required, just as in French, if your house is named "Harvey", it's still "une maison" and its pronoun is "she". So if you're using "he", because your house is named Harvey, you're deliberately making a point by making an obvious grammatical error.

In a similar vein, a spirit in Greek is an "it", not a he. If you're calling it a he, you're deliberately making a grammatical error to make a point.

The same is true of the plural word "God" in Hebrew taking a masculine singular verb. It can't do that grammatically, it's an error, and it stands out as such. So if you doing it, you're making a point that THIS god is something particular and different.

It's like using "ain't" in formal writing. If you do it, you're doing it to make a strong point.
I understand the points above .

However, "it" was not used as Jesus paints a picture of a Person. Even the Greek demands such attributes demand a "he" or "she." If John is communicating Jesus properly then He must be used.

In verse 7 Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as The Advocate (Comforter). This is a masculine noun which is probably why "he" is used throughout the chapter:

Transliteration paraklētos
Pronunciation pä-rä'-klā-tos (Key)
Part of Speech masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
A root word
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 5:800,782
Strong's Info
Strong’s Definitions
παράκλητος paráklētos, par-ak'-lay-tos; an intercessor, consoler:—advocate, comforter.
KJV Translation Count — Total: 5x
The KJV translates Strong's G3875 in the following manner: comforter (4x), advocate (1x).

The Comforter or Advocate is personified. And as such in Greek the Person of the Holy Spirit is in the masculine noun.
 
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redleghunter

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There's a discussion in the NT Greek list, John 16:13,14, that concludes that "he" in John 16:13 refers to the Advocate, which is gramatically masculine. The implication is that the gender is simply grammatical.

Daniel Wallace comes to the same conclusion, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics

Here another article giving the grammar in detail: http://www.dbts.edu/journals/2011/NaselliGons2011.pdf

None of my commentaries discuss the issue, so that's the best reference I have.
You beat me to it. Yes...

Church of Sweden to formally stop referring to God as "he"
 
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Vicomte13

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I understand the points above .

However, "it" was not used as Jesus paints a picture of a Person. Even the Greek demands such attributes demand a "he" or "she." If John is communicating Jesus properly then He must be used.

In verse 7 Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as The Advocate (Comforter). This is a masculine noun which is probably why "he" is used throughout the chapter:

Transliteration paraklētos
Pronunciation pä-rä'-klā-tos (Key)
Part of Speech masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
A root word
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 5:800,782
Strong's Info
Strong’s Definitions
παράκλητος paráklētos, par-ak'-lay-tos; an intercessor, consoler:—advocate, comforter.
KJV Translation Count — Total: 5x
The KJV translates Strong's G3875 in the following manner: comforter (4x), advocate (1x).

The Comforter or Advocate is personified. And as such in Greek the Person of the Holy Spirit is in the masculine noun.
 
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Vicomte13

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In Romans 8:16 and 26, you will find Paul correctly calling the Holy Spirit the grammatically neutral (and correct) "It" and "Itself" - auto, not autos.

John has chosen to depart from the rules of grammar to make a point.
 
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Well since we have evidence in scripture over and over that he is the Father that would negate this heretical teaching. The counterfeit church in action and the undiscerning body is unable to correct it.
Once again, I already said that I personally do not favor the change. However, I am not going to say that those who undertake the change are making a grave mistake. I will leave that up to God to decide.
 
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JoeP222w

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Church of Sweden to stop referring to God as 'he' or 'Lord'


I mean, I don't believe God is necessarily physically male or female, but this seems like a bit much. What are your thoughts?

Jesus is male. Jesus is God. Thus God is male. If you reject that fundamental truth of the Bible, why call yourself Christian (since you have such disdain for the Bible)?

And if this is true about the church of Sweden then they have left the truth for a lie.
 
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Vicomte13

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Once again, I already said that I personally do not favor the change. However, I am not going to say that those who undertake the change are making a grave mistake. I will leave that up to God to decide.
"Man" or "men" when it means "mankind", is not referring to males but to people. This should be made clear. In the past it was not necessary, because it was normal in English-speaking society to simply revert to the masculine pronoun when referring to people of indeterminate or mixed gender. But that tradition of grammar and society is not a theological principle, and as the society itself has changed and stopped doing that, some people - of a traditional male chauvinist variety - people who do not like the change towards gender equality in our law, society and culture, can - and DO - turn to the language of the Church as justification for their atavistic views. By correcting the language so that it properly reflects gender neutrality where no sex is intended in the sacred text or liturgy, the Church is taking away a weapon of the stubborn and stupid, and that's a good thing.

On the other hand, where male gender is intended, as with the Father and the Son, the Church does not neutralize he gender, as that would be wrong.

In translating the Bible, the Church's most recent efforts have translated the pronouns for the Spirit as written: "he", where the manuscript reads "he", and "it" where it reads "it". This is the only defensible approach now that the sex of the Holy Spirit has become an issue. However, the Church has not - regrettably - done so for the Old Testament, where the Hebrew and Aramaic say "she".

In a similar vein, the Church does not describe the tents of Abraham, Isaac and the patriarchs as HER tent, even though the Hebrew says that.

The more literal the translation, and the more mechanical, the better.

But it doesn't matter so much for Catholics anyway, because we are not a Bible Alone religion. For Protestants, getting these things exactly right ought to be crucial.

Also, Catholicism still officially, deep down inside, consider the Latin to be the final word on the Scripture, so translations from Greek recensions are used for most Catholic bibles, because the Greek and Latin are so close, but in the Psalms, the Hebrew departs significantly from the LXX, and the Greek versions differ from the Latin forms, many of which predate the Vulgate and come from the Vetus Latina.
Catholic Bibles use the Roman Missal Latin form of the Psalms as their basis for translation - the final authority - as opposed to Greek translations or the Hebrew.

But this detail is really pretty irrelevant.
 
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hedrick

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Jesus is male. Jesus is God. Thus God is male.
You can't be serious. Jesus was mortal. Thus God is moral. Jesus was Jewish. Thus God is Jewish.

You're not taking into account that in the Incarnation there are two natures in one person. Each nature has its own properties. You can't immediately attribute everything human to God. Chalcedon calls it "confusing the natures."
 
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Vicomte13

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And of course, vastly complicating this for those who would take too strong a stand on this, is the Syriac Peshitta, written in Jesus' and the Apostles' Aramaic. In it, as one would expect, the Holy Spirit is feminine throughout, in noun and pronoun, because spirit is feminine in Hebrew and Aramaic.

So, when Jesus spoke to Jewish fisherman/apostles, in Palestine, in private at dinner, was he speaking to them in Greek? (Peter, after all, needed an interpreter to communicate in Greek: that was Mark's role, and John's Greek and Matthew's and Mark's are all Semitic. Luke's is the only pure Greek of the New Testament. The others all struggle with the language - it was not their native tongue.) Jesus was speaking to them in Aramaic. We know from the patristic sources that there was an Aramaic/Hebrew version of Jesus that came first, and that others used that as a source. The Peshitta, too, may have used that source.

In any case, the Peshitta is written in the native tongue of Jesus and the Apostles, and throughout the Peshitta, the Holy Spirit is a girl, just as she is in the Torah and the entire Old Testament.

As for me? Well, the issue for me is this: the Father impregnated Mary by the Holy Spirit overshadowing her. Neat trick for a girl to father a child.

I think the truth is found in Genesis 1: "In God's image he made him, male and female he made them." God is male and female, both - both principles are within God. The Father and the Son are masculine in aspect. The Holy Spirit and the Glory of God and Holy Wisdom are feminine in aspect. That's what the grammar of the Bible in the original languages that were spoken hold, and it makes perfect sense that it should be so.

That female and male are mutable within the godhead, likewise, makes perfect sense, for the female and the male are both made in God's image.
 
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Biblewriter

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Yes, but now read it correctly.
In Deuteronomy, God is referring to the Law - the Torah, of which Deuteronomy is the final piece. The entire Bible, all that would come later, is not the Torah, and most of what remains in the Old Testament is not God speaking directly. No more law is given by God in the Old Testament. Do not add to the Law is what God said in Deuteronomy, not "do not add to the Bible". The Bible and the Law are not at all synonymous. It is adding to the Bible to state they are.

The admonition to add nothing nor subtract anything from this scroll, in Revelation, is a direct reference to THAT scroll - Revelation - which John was told to take up and write. It does not in any sense apply to the rest of the Bible, which was not compiled until the 300s AD.

As to the admonition in Proverbs - absolutely so, but what are the words of God? The words of the Law, the rTorah, the words that God spoke. Solomon's proverb there is not words spoken by God, but by Solomon (et al). To call them "God's words" when they are Solomon's words is to add to the words of God. All of the LAW in Scripture came out of God's mouth. Jesus told the Devil that man lived on every word "that proceeds forth out of the mouth of God" - a lengthy and rather convoluted expression. The Bible always identifies the words that God spoke himself. It is THOSE words that Jesus referred to, specifically - the words that proceeded forth out of the mouth of God - that Jesus referred to.

The Torah is all law that came directly out of God's mouth. Jesus' words are recorded in quadruplicate.

THOSE are the words that God spoke, that can't be added to. To take the whole Bible and claim that God spoke all of that is not true. The Bible itself makes a very clean and clear distinction of what God said. And the Bible says - in those passages you quoted - to focus on what God said. To take, for example, what Jude said in his letter about Enoch and claim that Jude's words were spoken by God is to mash a bunch of words that God did not speak with what he did speak - and to break the commandment. Jesus gave commandments. If he wasn't really God, then what he did was blasphemous. That's why he was killed: the Sanhedrin did not believe he was divine.

The tradition of holding up the entire Bible and pretending that God spoke all of that is in violent conflict with these very passages warning people not to do that. It is a stubborn tradition, and one that we will not be ending today. Nevertheless, no: God did not speak out the whole Bible. Nor did he arrange the Bible, deciding what was in and what was out. Men did that. IN the Bible, what God said is recorded, mostly in the Torah, a few of the prophets, the Gospels and Revelation. The rest of the Bible is not what God said. It's what men said about God, and that does not have the same authority.
To say that it does is to add massively to the words of God.

If you deny that the Bible, the entire Bible, is the word of God, we have nothing in common. Over and Out.
 
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Vicomte13

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The "divine feminine"? Sure - the Holy Spirit is a girl, generally, in Jesus' language. So what? Jesus didn't tell us to pray to the Holy Spirit, and he didn't tell us to pray to him himself either. He told us to pray to his God - the Father.

And the Father told everybody, from the sky no less, twice:
"This is my beloved Son, listen to him."t
"This is my beloved Son, follow him."

So, God said to follow Jesus, and Jesus said to pray to the Father.

That the Holy Spirit is a girl is interesting. That's how it is. What difference does it make? Jesus told us to pray to the Father.

It makes a difference for religious traditions, but so what? It's good that religious traditions get shaken up from time to time. Jews and Christians get complacent and start believing weird things. Given the questionable status of the gender of the Holy Spirit, making anything hang on that gender distinction - which God clearly didn't make clear - is making a mistake.

Digging in and fighting about it is not wise.

If I am forced to, I'm going to fight on the side of the premise that, given Hebrew and Aramaic, the Holy Spirit is feminine, and given what God said and Jesus said, and didn't say, it's not an important point. Which means that I have to fight those who say that it IS an important point, because it isn't. Obviously.
 
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Vicomte13

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If you deny that the Bible, the entire Bible, is the word of God, we have nothing in common. Over and Out.
I deny that it's all the words that proceeded forth out of the mouth of God, yes.
The Scriptures say on their face when God is speaking directly.
 
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Vicomte13

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The concensus is that the Peshitta's NT was translated from Greek.

That's fine. But Jesus spoke Aramaic to the Apostles, not Greek. That much is obvious. Peter couldn't speak Greek - he needed an interpreter. And at the most dramatic moments, Jesus is quoted speaking the Aramaic Hebrew, which is then translated.

In Aramaic and Hebrew, spirit is feminine. So when Jesus spoke those words that were translated into Greek by those who wrote the Scriptures, he was referring to spirit in the feminine.

Which makes no difference to me at all, for the reasons I've already said.

Tradition-mongering seems kind of desperate to me. Why? The Spirit has been feminine since the beginning. Why would that have changed? It makes no difference to me at all, and it makes no difference to the message of God. If it makes a difference to some men, it's because they're caring about something that's not important, and I'm likely to just argue and argue and argue with them forever, since they are so obviously obsessed with something Jesus didn't say a word about. We're supposed to pray to the Father.
 
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