Church of Sweden to formally stop referring to God as "he"

[FireDragon76]

Ebeneezer in San Francisco, aka "herchurch" is not representative of the ELCA as a whole, and is considered by most as a significant embarrassment. What they are doing there isn't Lutheran, it is heresy and idolatry. I do not understand why it remains an accepted congregation under the ELCA umbrella.

-CryptoLutheran

Lutherans in the US are highly congregationally oriented. Most haven't even heard of Herchurch. At my local congregation, I doubt most people are even aware that we have a presiding bishop in our denomination, much less that she is a woman.

 

[FireDragon76]

I imagine that the folks in the LC-MS probably think that the ELCA has really lost their way now. Having said that, the decision to allow gay pastors and perform same-sex blessings pretty much drove a wedge between the two denominations as it was.

We have separate-but-related religious identities that outsiders would not easily understand. We came from different places and different mindsets. Gay pastors and female clergy are more symptomatic of divisions that were already there. The big thing that actually divided us the most is actually Creationism. LCMS in the 60's took a stance as a denomination to uphold a more literalist interpretation of Genesis and other old stories in the Bible, and it lead to an exodus of clergy and tensions with the Lutheran Church in America and what later became the ELCA.

 

[The Times]

Jesus referred to God as His Father. He taught his disciples to pray "Our Father who art in Heaven".


Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (John 20:17)

Using a mother or any genderless pronoun, when refering to God is not only harmful, but is outright disobedient and blasphemous.

 

[The Times]

This genderless agenda is the duality that Satan uses to vail his identity.

This is why the image that is pushed is Satan"s androgynous society. This is pure evil.

androgynous
anˈdrɒdʒɪnəs/
adjective

1. partly male and partly female in appearance; of indeterminate sex.
   "a stunningly androgynous dancer"
   • dated
     having the physical characteristics of both sexes; hermaphrodite.

 

[FireDragon76]

The Bible does use feminine imagery for God, though it is much rarer.

I believe that calling God "Father" is more authentic to Jesus but I don't necessarily see the emphasis in my church as unacceptable. They are trying to deal with the notion that maleness and divinity are one in the same, and to be male is somehow more perfect than being female.

 

[The Times]

This is the mark of the beast, the beast being Satan, who is both male and female and neither at the same time.

Wheras the image of God is.....

So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth (Genesis 1:27-28)

Offcourse Satan wants all of humanity to embrace his androgynous mark, which is the antithesis of God's Created Rights Image.

If a person embraces an androgynous society, they are serving a lie and receiving the mark of Satan/Beast.

 

[Basil the Great]

We have separate-but-related religious identities that outsiders would not easily understand. We came from different places and different mindsets. Gay pastors and female clergy are more symptomatic of divisions that were already there. The big thing that actually divided us the most is actually Creationism. LCMS in the 60's took a stance as a denomination to uphold a more literalist interpretation of Genesis and other old stories in the Bible, and it lead to an exodus of clergy and tensions with the Lutheran Church in America and what later became the ELCA.

Thanks. Yes, I have heard this explained previously. I know that the core issue deals with Biblical inerrancy vs a more modern interpretation which considers other factors. Back in the 1960's, the town where I grew up had the ALC and the LC-MS churches share services at times, either in the summer or on Good Fridays or both. However, this ended apparently when the ALC decided to ordain women pastors, around 1970.

 

[Basil the Great]

We have separate-but-related religious identities that outsiders would not easily understand. We came from different places and different mindsets. Gay pastors and female clergy are more symptomatic of divisions that were already there. The big thing that actually divided us the most is actually Creationism. LCMS in the 60's took a stance as a denomination to uphold a more literalist interpretation of Genesis and other old stories in the Bible, and it lead to an exodus of clergy and tensions with the Lutheran Church in America and what later became the ELCA.

Yes, I recall that about 10 percent of the congregations left the LC-MS and broke off for a few years, until they joined in with the ALC and the LCA to form the ELCA. What these 10 percent former LC-MS congregations have done now, well, I assume that many have left the ELCA, as I know they have lost a lot of congregations since they voted to accept ordination of gay pastors in active relationships and allow same-sex blessings, based upon a local congregational vote I believe. Even quite a few former ALC congregations must have left by now, though probably not a majority, as they were somewhat more conservative than the LCA or so I was told prior to the merger.

 

[discipler7]

This means you're acknowledging that God created women, but not in his image. In whose image, then?

Did I not already answer that in my previous post.? Ie, "GENESIS.2 says that God created the 1st woman, Eve, out of one of Adam's rib and likely in Adam's image."
.

John 4:24 still says that God is SPIRIT.

1CORINTHIANS.2:11 and PROVERBS.20:27 also say that man is spirit.
... After we die, what do we become.?
.

This is a different subject. The role of women in church has nothing to do with God, who is Spirit, being of male gender.

No, this is a related subject, as per 1COR.11:7 = "7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man."
... The Word of God did not say that a woman is the image and glory of God.

 

[FireDragon76]

It was the American Lutheran equivalent of the Fundamentalist-Modernist controversy, it just took several decades to effect the Lutheran church in the US. Probably because, at the time of the Fundamentalist-Modernist controversy, American Lutherans were culturally isolated from the wider Protestant world (indeed, many were persecuted in America for being German-American around that time period).

 

[Strong in Him]

1CORINTHIANS.2:11 and PROVERBS.20:27 also say that man is spirit.
..

We HAVE a Spirit; we ARE NOT spirit.
Unless you're a Christian Scientist or gnostic and believe that the body is matter and therefore corrupt and not real.

When we die our physical bodies decay/get cremated - it's the only way matter can be destroyed. We don't become spirit; our spirits live.

God IS Spirit.

No, this is a related subject, as per 1COR.11:7 = "7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man."

Nowhere does it say that woman is the IMAGE of man.
That doesn't mean that women weren't created in the image of God.

 

[discipler7]

Feminism is quite a powerful political force in secular democratic elections = the women-vote. Similarly for pandering to the LGBTQs. Some (liberal) Churches like to commit religious harlotry or prostitute themselves for political/worldly power and influence. ...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

MATTHEW.4: =
8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”

REVELATION.17: =
5 And on her forehead a name was written:

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
OF THE EARTH.

6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

 

[Christie insb]

Once God starts being portrayed in ways as female, then many things can be done to make HIM appear as something other than what HE is portrayed to be in scripture. God the Father being made into something in peoples' minds other than what scripture says. Then to no longer call him Lord is another thing. What is He now? Our equal?

In the Old Testament the word "Lord" is most often translated from the tetragrammaton (? sp) YHVH. It does not mean Lord, but the Name of God. Jews don't say this word out of respect for God, so they substituted "Lord" for it. So I don't know what this denomination says instead of Lord, but I definitely think Lord is not the be all and end all of what to use when referring to God.

As for not referring to God by the male pronoun - - God made humans in his image - - male and female. God is not a biological male. Rather, we all get our best traits from God, who possesses all goodness. Well, that doesn't convey exactly what I mean, but what I do mean is an unrelated topic.

I have friends who were abused in their formative years by a man and calling God "he" hurts them. I don't know what pronoun they are using. Some people just don't use a pronoun to describe God. I am not at all recommending calling God "she" but I an quite sure there are other options which don't involve limiting God to a single gender.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

So they can't say the Lord's Prayer, the "Our Father"??? How stupid.

 

[salt-n-light]

Wait. Is God not the Trinity, and is the Trinity not God?

Yes, but this post is saying that God the Father, should also be prayed to as a mother. No its God the Father, He. He presents himself as masculine, He. Lets not complicate it.

Its like me telling you I'm a girl, and I'm clearly a girl, and yet you keep calling me a boy.

 

[hedrick]

This one is from a woman author same site 13 years later.

The Goddess Unmasked

This article is also hidden, but it appears to describe someone who isn't a Christian. Not sure how that's relevant to this discussion.

Sophia (Greek for Wisdom) has been used in a number of contexts, some Gnostic, others non-Christian. But Wisdom also appears as a woman in Proverbs. That's the basis of Christian usage. You need to look at at person's actual theology to see whether it's being used in a Christian way or not.

Wisdom is, of course, one of the OT precusors to John's Logos. So it's not a separate god or godess, but an attribute of God. In a Trinitarian context you'd have to view it is one image for the Son. Contra some of the postings here, there's nothing wrong with using female images and language for the Logos.

But there are also unorthodox and non-Christian uses.

 

[Strong in Him]

Feminism is quite a powerful political force in secular democratic elections = the women-vote. Similarly for pandering to the LGBTQs. Some (liberal) Churches like to commit religious harlotry or prostitute themselves for political/worldly power and influence. ...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

MATTHEW.4: =
8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”

REVELATION.17: =
5 And on her forehead a name was written:

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
OF THE EARTH.

6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

It's a shame that you have such a low opinion of women, considering that Jesus accepted, taught, healed them, allowed them to follow him and speak for him - and specifically chose a woman to be the first witness of the resurrection. It was a woman who told the men the Good News and gave them a message from the risen Lord.

 

[hedrick]

Did I not already answer that in my previous post.? Ie, "GENESIS.2 says that God created the 1st woman, Eve, out of one of Adam's rib and likely in Adam's image."

The term "image" is used in Gen 1:27, and is explicitly about both men and women. If you're going to deny that women were made in the image of God, I don't think we have enough in common to discuss issues like this in any useful way.

 

[discipler7]

We HAVE a Spirit; we ARE NOT spirit.

No, that's not quite true. The spirit of man is also in the image of the Spirit of God.

1CORINTHIANS.5: = 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1COR.2: = 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

ISAIAH.48: = 16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”

GENESIS.1: =
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
.
.

Nowhere does it say that woman is the IMAGE of man.
That doesn't mean that women weren't created in the image of God.

Wasn't Eve created out of one of Adam's ribs.?

If a woman is the image and glory of God, just like for a man, what the apostle Paul said about women at 1CORINTHIANS.11:7 & 14:34 would have been very unfair. Hence, Paul did not say that a man and a woman are the image and glory of God.

The truth, according to the Word of God/Bible at GENESIS.1 & 2, is that a woman was not created by God to be equal to a man. The Church of Sweden, in pandering to the feminist movement, want to create God in their own image, ie as a She-God also. ...

ROMANS.1: =
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

 

[Christie insb]

Can you explain this statement with scripture please?

Not the OP but God created Man in His own image. Male and female created He them.