Church of Sweden to formally stop referring to God as "he"

[Vicomte13]

Christ says:

Matthew 23:9
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

From Malachi:

Malachi 2:10
Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

No, Malachi, we all have TWO fathers: a biological one, who gave us a chromosome. And a spiritual one, either in Heaven and divine, or satanic.

As far as what Jesus said, we can take it two ways.

One way (which is what he obviously meant) was for his Jewish audience not to call rabbis their spirtual fathers, because the only spiritual father is in Heaven. Elsewhere, Jesus tells some Pharisees that THEIR (spiritual) father was the Devil. When he says to Nicodemus that men must be fathered again (begotten again - by the Father - not "born again", per the usual inaccurate translation) to have God as their (spiritual) Father.

Another way one can take Jesus is absolutely literally, and to see what he is saying to be saying that one is not to call even one's biological father "father". If one insists on reading Jesus to mean THAT, then pretty much the whole structure of Scripture on this matter collapses into nonsense. For one thing, if the Father is simply all of ours father - full stop - (as opposed to spiritual father, which is what Jesus makes clear elsewhere) - then Jesus is not the only begotten son. We're all in the same relationship to our common father. This would then demote our biological fathers to be our stepbrothers, with the same father but different mothers.

It would essentially reduce the male element of humanity to nothing: we have different mothers, and one father, so the commandment to "Honor your mother and father" means honor your biological mother, and God, but stop calling this step-brother from which you biologically get your Y Chromosome "father" - he is not your father, only God is.

That's absurd. Jesus cannot be taken literally there, because the result is ridiculous.

Jesus was talking to Pharisees who called their spiritual teachers "father". He told them to stop that. He said their only father is in Heaven. That's not literally true. So, either Jesus was lying or saying something inane, or he wasn't talking about biology at all.

The correct answer to that is that he wasn't talking about biological fathers (whom God said elsewhere we are to honor).

The other answer is just silly.

 

[Vicomte13]

.

MATTHEW.12: =
Jesus’ Mother and Brothers Send for Him
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”

48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Obviously here Jesus is using a rhetorical device to demonstrate that spiritual concerns SUPERSEDE biology in importance. He COULD be read to be negating biology - that his biological mother is LITERALLY not his mother. But reading it that way would make Jesus a buffoon, so we can't read it that way.

 

[Noxot]

hah, I never really considered the phrase "only begotten Son of God" from a biological pov. I wonder if that is what most religious folk think about when they hear that phrase.

 

[Vicomte13]

hah, I never really considered the phrase "only begotten Son of God" from a biological pov. I wonder if that is what most religious folk think about when they hear that phrase.

Back in the day, when the competing world around had heroic Hercules and Jason, and demi-gods and demi-goddesses of many stripes, all with a divine parent and a human parent (generally a divine father, Jupiter or Zeus, and a human mother), demi-gods were a key feature of religion.

Pharaoh was the son of Ra, god of the sun.
The Japanese Emperor is the son of a sea goddess.
Etc.

Now, the Jews had in their own religion a tradition of a sort of demi-god - the nephilim - who were the product of angels taking human women as wives and mating with them. This is portrayed as a negative thing, not a positive one. The angels were fallen, their offspring were gigantesque - but also "the great heroes of old". The book of Enoch (not in the standard Western Canon, but in the Ethiopian Orthodox canon) details the rise of the Nephilim.

To Judaism, with it's One Single Monad God, the notion that God HIMSELF would ever produce a demi-god - a Nephil of YHWH! - this was shocking. That Jesus, and then his followers, then claimed that he was just exactly that: the biological Son of God - well, that was not just blasphemous to many Jews, it was the sort of dirty Greek craziness, with their sexually active gods producing heroes: fsiry tale nonsense.

And the thing is, the Jewish reaction was completely sensible and probably right. The Greek and Middle Eastern demi-god stories WERE for the most part, completely fantasy literature.

But Jesus actually WAS a divine human with a human mother and divine Father. This was (and still is) unacceptable to huge numbers of people, Jews and Muslims included. The Greeks had no problem with a demi-god savior. Their problem would have been in the assertion that there was only ONE single God.

In general, the Greeks and Romans had far less difficulty with the idea of Jesus as "Son of God" than the Jews did (and do).

The Christian claim that there are no other gods at all, and that Jesus is the biologically fathered Son of God was a pair of claims that dismantled both Jewish and Greek theology. It was easier for the Greeks to accept a triune sort of monotheism than for the Jews to accept God biologically fathering a child.

 

[Tom 1]

Church of Sweden to stop referring to God as 'he' or 'Lord'


I mean, I don't believe God is necessarily physically male or female, but this seems like a bit much. What are your thoughts?

It seems to me to be part of the same cultural shift that is taking place in the UK too, on the one hand a kind of desperate attempt to do away with anything that could make anyone feel uncomfortable or lead to any kind of unwanted confrontation with reality, and on the other a rejection of the way men regularly abuse positions of power. Equating this abuse of power by men with God, and then trying to deal with that false association by changing the pronouns in the Bible however is just piling one error on top of another.

 

[Tom 1]

No, I cannot quote Scripture, as you wish, and I have no problem with those of you who are concerned about this matter. Also, like most people, I tend to view God as a Father in Heaven. However, I just see no real harm in seeing him as a mother, as well as a father. After all, I doubt that God has a sexual identity like humans or animals do. Does it somehow harm our faith to quit referring to God as Father? I guess that is up to each person. It should not make much difference one way or the other, as long as we love God and keep His commandments.

I think it does matter...I don't pretend to understand it fully in practice, and there are obvious abuses of this in everyday life, but God did institute male authority in the kingdom, with himself as The Father, the authority over all other authorities. God is not a man, he is God, but he expresses himself and his authority as a father figure. If we decide to change that then we're moving away from an understanding of who God is.

 

[Noxot]

maybe God revealed himself as a father because that is what humanity needed at the time.

 

[Vicomte13]

God is not a man, he is God, but he expresses himself and his authority as a father figure.

The Holy Spirit is also God, and expresses herself as well.

 

[Noxot]

The Christian claim that there are no other gods at all, and that Jesus is the biologically fathered Son of God was a pair of claims that dismantled both Jewish and Greek theology. It was easier for the Greeks to accept a triune sort of monotheism than for the Jews to accept God biologically fathering a child.

hah yeah the Truth has a way of destroying everything it feels like destroying.

Isa 10:17 (YLT)
And the light of Israel hath been for a fire, And his Holy One for a flame, And it hath burned, and devoured his thorn And his brier in one day.

Song 8:6-7 (YLT)
Set me as a seal on thy heart, as a seal on thine arm, For strong as death is love, Sharp as Sheol is jealousy, Its burnings are burnings of fire, a flame of Jah! Many waters are not able to quench the love, And floods do not wash it away. If one give all the wealth of his house for love, Treading down--they tread upon it.

 

[Tom 1]

So the gender of the spirit, and the spirit's pronouns change based on the language.

Isn't this just a linguistic curiosity? In the romance languages, words used in masculine/feminine form don't always mean that the thing referred to is necessarily masculine or feminine. Or is this the use of an actual feminine pronoun for the spirit?

 

[Tom 1]

The Holy Spirit is also God, and expresses herself as well.

Interesting yes. I don't think that changes the idea of God as a Father, a male authority figure though, or that he carries this idea over into relationships between men and women. It is interesting though, I'm just not sure how much or what to read into it.

 

[Vicomte13]

maybe God revealed himself as a father because that is what humanity needed at the time.

Jesus was God - and a human male.

Jesus spoke of the Father - a mascule.

And he spoke of Holy Spirit - a feminine.

Just because OUR language uses a male pronoun for the Holy Spirit, while Greek uses a neutral pronoun, doesn't change anything. Jesus spoke Aramaic and quoted the Hebrew Bible. In THOSE languages Jesus was using the pronoun "she" when referring to the Spirit, because Spirit is feminine in those languages.

This is a simple fact. I keep repeating it because nobody here is willing to acknowledge it straight on, and accept what it means. People are twisting themselves into knots to avoid admitting ANY female principle in God, but every time Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit and Spirits of God, using that word, "spirit", he was speaking Aramaic or Hebrews, and he was calling her "Her".

That's the actual word that Jesus used. So why is anybody fighting about it, and trying to find a way for that not to be. It is so, and it cannot be changed. And it conveys a truth.

The Father is masculine.
The Son is masculine.
Ths Spirit is feminine.

To a Trinitarian, this means that God is BOTH male and female, which is what is revealed all the way back in Genesis 1.

Why, then, make such a determined effort bury the feminine pronoun in the Hebrew and Aramaic that has been there out in the open for about 4000 years?

The better thing to do is to realize that the stresses and strains that using the native "she" for God's spirit creates, are artifacts of our own latter-day political issues, and not extend current events backwards to impose upon God.

 

[Vicomte13]

Interesting yes. I don't think that changes the idea of God as a Father, a male authority figure though, or that he carries this idea over into relationships between men and women. It is interesting though, I'm just not sure how much or what to read into it.

I guess I am asking you to challenge your trinitarianism.

If you're a trinintarian, God is not the Father. The Father is God, yes, but God is not SIMPLY the Father.
Nor is God the Son. The Son is God, but God is not JUST the Son.
The Holy Spirit is God, and God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The Father is not "more God" than the Holy Spirit.

THAT's the key.

The Father is masculine. The Holy Spirit is feminine. Both are God. The Father is not "MORE" God than the Holy Spirit. The Father has primacy of place within the Trinity, but the Father is not more divine than the Son or the Spirit. They are all equal in divinity.

That the Spirit is feminine does not challenge the maleness of the Father or the Son. That the Father and Son are masculine does not challenge the femaleness of the Holy Spirit.

It won't do to call them all genderless, because they all clearly HAVE genders in the Hebrew and Aramaic in which everything about them was revealed. The Father and the Son are masculine, and the Holy Spirit - all Spirit - is feminine, in grammatical gender either.

There no "transcendent" concept that allows one to simply ignore the grammar, other than tradition, but the tradition hangs upon air, on the fact that some people don't want to admit that the Holy Spirit is feminine, even though she always has been, for 4000 years.

It's a case of "I did not know that - I've always said "He" - the KJV says He, in plain English, and if English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it's good enough for me."

 

[Vicomte13]

Isn't this just a linguistic curiosity? In the romance languages, words used in masculine/feminine form don't always mean that the thing referred to is necessarily masculine or feminine. Or is this the use of an actual feminine pronoun for the spirit?

In Hebrew and Aramaic, the feminine pronoun is always used for the spirit - because the spirit is a feminine noun.

And the masculine or feminine are used for God, because that word has a masculine and feminine form (mostly found on place names), and both are used.

Sure, if one wishes to dismiss it as a grammatical artifact, one can do so. But considering that the Hebrew DOES depart from grammar with the word "God", which can be a masculine singular (El - used in place names and verbal constructions), and a feminine singular (Eloah - also used in place names and verbal constructions), but when the Hebrew God is referred to all along, it is a plural word: Elohiym, which is, when it means "God", translated with a masculine SINGULAR verb (even though the noun is plural); when it means "gods" or "mighty ones", it is translated with a plural verb.

So, the Hebrew does have a method to make a point, but breaking with the usual grammar. But it does not do so when the spirit is spoken of. She is a "She".

 

[discipler7]

1CORINTHIANS.5: =
Immorality Defiles the Church

.
.

So, it's Paul versus Jesus, again. I'll go with Jesus, thanks.

MATTHEW.18: =
Dealing with a Sinning Brother
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

 

[Tom 1]

In Hebrew and Aramaic, the feminine pronoun is always used for the spirit - because the spirit is a feminine noun.

And the masculine or feminine are used for God, because that word has a masculine and feminine form (mostly found on place names), and both are used.

Sure, if one wishes to dismiss it as a grammatical artifact, one can do so. But considering that the Hebrew DOES depart from grammar with the word "God", which can be a masculine singular (El - used in place names and verbal constructions), and a feminine singular (Eloah - also used in place names and verbal constructions), but when the Hebrew God is referred to all along, it is a plural word: Elohiym, which is, when it means "God", translated with a masculine SINGULAR verb (even though the noun is plural); when it means "gods" or "mighty ones", it is translated with a plural verb.

So, the Hebrew does have a method to make a point, but breaking with the usual grammar. But it does not do so when the spirit is spoken of. She is a "She".

Thanks

 

[discipler7]

MATTHEW.12: =
Jesus’ Mother and Brothers Send for Him
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”

48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

.
.

Obviously here Jesus is using a rhetorical device to demonstrate that spiritual concerns SUPERSEDE biology in importance. He COULD be read to be negating biology - that his biological mother is LITERALLY not his mother. But reading it that way would make Jesus a buffoon, so we can't read it that way.

MATTHEW.1 =
Christ Born of Mary
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

 

[Tom 1]

I guess I am asking you to challenge your trinitarianism.

If you're a trinintarian, God is not the Father. The Father is God, yes, but God is not SIMPLY the Father.
Nor is God the Son. The Son is God, but God is not JUST the Son.
The Holy Spirit is God, and God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The Father is not "more God" than the Holy Spirit.

THAT's the key.

The Father is masculine. The Holy Spirit is feminine. Both are God. The Father is not "MORE" God than the Holy Spirit. The Father has primacy of place within the Trinity, but the Father is not more divine than the Son or the Spirit. They are all equal in divinity.

That the Spirit is feminine does not challenge the maleness of the Father or the Son. That the Father and Son are masculine does not challenge the femaleness of the Holy Spirit.

It won't do to call them all genderless, because they all clearly HAVE genders in the Hebrew and Aramaic in which everything about them was revealed. The Father and the Son are masculine, and the Holy Spirit - all Spirit - is feminine, in grammatical gender either.

There no "transcendent" concept that allows one to simply ignore the grammar, other than tradition, but the tradition hangs upon air, on the fact that some people don't want to admit that the Holy Spirit is feminine, even though she always has been, for 4000 years.

It's a case of "I did not know that - I've always said "He" - the KJV says He, in plain English, and if English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it's good enough for me."

Interesting, thanks for the info

 

[Tom 1]

you can't call God a Father unless he has a Wife. who is our Fathers Wife? who is my Mother?

I suppose it depends how much you want to read into the use of a feminine pronoun for the Holy Spirit? Figuratively I mean, I don't think God as Father means the same as man as father, as in making babies with a mother. Maybe trying to reverse engineer this through word association is a non starter.

 

[discipler7]

In Hebrew and Aramaic, the feminine pronoun is always used for the spirit - because the spirit is a feminine noun.

(source: The Hebrew Name for God - The Spirit of God (Ruach Elohim) )

Introduction

"The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life."
(Job 33:4)

From the time of creation constant reference is made in Holy Writ to Messiah and the Messianic hope of Israel. 'The Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters'; the Spirit of God means Messiah.
(Midrash Genesis Rabbah 2; Leviticus Rabbah 14)


The Spirit of YHVH is YHVH Himself...

In the Tanakh, the word ruach generally means wind, breath, mind, spirit. In a living creature (nephesh chayah), the ruach is the breath, whether of animals (Gen 7:15; Psa 104:25, 29) or mankind (Isa 42:5; Ezek 37:5). God is the creator of ruach: "The ruach of God (from God) is in my nostrils" (Job 27:3). In God's hand is the ruach of all mankind (Job 12:10; Isa 42:5). In mankind, ruach further denotes the principle of life that possesses reason, will, and conscience. The ruach imparts the divine image to man, and constitutes the animating dynamic which results in man's nephesh as the subject of personal life.

When applied to God, the word Ruach indicates creative activity (Gen 1:2) and active power (Isa 40:13). The Spirit of God also works in providence (Job 33:4; Psa 104:30), in redemption (Ezek 11:19; Ezek 36:26-27), in upholding and guiding his chosen ones (Neh 9:20; Psa 143:10; Hag 2:5), and in the empowering of the Messiah (Isa 11:2; Isa 42:1; Isa 61:1).

In short, as the ruach is to the created nephesh, so the Ruach Elohim is to God Himself, part of God and identified with God. Ruach may be understood as the Author of the animating dynamic of the created order, the underlying Principle of creation, and the One that imparts the nephesh to the entire universe.


The Spirit of God

Ruach Elohim.
The Spirit of God.
References: Gen. 1:2; Gen. 41:38; Exod. 31:3; 35:31; Num. 24:2; 1 Sam. 10:10; 11:6; 16:15f, 23; 18:10; 19:20, 23; 2 Chr. 15:1; 2 Chr. 24:20.
In many of these references note that the Spirit of God "came upon" an individual and enabled him to speak or act on behalf of YHVH.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

(circa 2001)
Strong's #7307: ruwach (pronounced roo'-akh)

from 7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):--air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

( https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/H7307/ruwach.htm )

(notice that the 2001 version had no noun Feminine)
. . . . . . .

(circa 2017)
Strong's Concordance; 7307. ruach

ruach: breath, wind, spirit
Original Word: ר֫וּחַ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: ruach
Phonetic Spelling: (roo'-akh)
Short Definition: spirit

( Strong's Hebrew: 7307. ר֫וּחַ (ruach) -- breath, wind, spirit )