Church of Sweden to formally stop referring to God as "he"

[Strong in Him]

.
REVELATION.17: =
5 And on her forehead a name was written:

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
OF THE EARTH.

6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

What's that got to do with it?
The dragon and beast are both referred to as "he" - so?

And if you're saying that sin is female and personified by a woman; it was a woman who was the first witness to the resurrection.

 

[discipler7]

I know that Jesus told them to sin no more, but their sin didn't stop him from associating with them in the first place.
A previous post seemed to suggest that if we welcome/associate with people who sin or adopt certain lifestyles, we accept that sin into our lives. I am saying that it's perfectly possible to greet a homosexual, for example, without becoming a homosexual yourself, adopting, or being "tainted by" their lifestyle.

.
2TIMOTHY.3: =
Perilous Times and Perilous Men
3 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.

The Man of God and the Word of God
10 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
.
.
MATTHEW.18: =
Dealing with a Sinning Brother
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

 

[The Times]

I am sorry you are offended and sad

I don't totally believe the sorry part.

But if you are saying that God is only male , the Gospel and our salvation depends on his male-ness and anyone even suggesting otherwise is ashamed of God and has fallen away from the faith - I find that offensive.

The relationship between the Heavenly Father and me is solely vested in how I consider Him, from the very definition of the term Father, in the way Jesus would want me and others to consider Him. It would be an insult to call the Heavenly Father mother. Jesus did not do this and neither did the apostles.

We call God "he" and "Father" because Jesus told us that he is a someone with whom we can have a personal relationship. It would be impersonal, and disrespectful, to call God "it".

You are mistaken. Jesus called God his Father, which highlights a deeper relationship which is demonstrated and defined in how God created male and female in his own image, in the Genesis account, to reflect a real and tangible relationship between the Father and his children. This is not just a mere title for the heck of it as you wrongly imply. The Trinity according to the Nicene Creed defines him clearly as a masculine figure, in the same way I would consider my earthly father, yet God is my Heavenly Father.

Of course God is our Father but he is much more. If a child has an absent father - lost through death or divorce - their mother will be their only parent. She will be everything to them (unless she marries again); doing and being all things.

You would not call a mother a father in the absence of a father. Since Jesus clearly calls God his Father before the creation of all things, then it clearly highlights that God chooses that title. What is your problem with what God requests of his subjects?

God is all things; all sufficient, all powerful, all knowing. To say that he is both father and mother is not disrespectful, treason, blasphemous or displaying signs of feminism - it is our, human, way of saying that God is all things to us and does all things.

Unless God has identified himself other than the Heavenly Father, unless Jesus identified Him other than the Heavenly Father and unless the apostles identified Him other than the Heavenly Father, then I may entertain the thought that it would not be disrespectful, treasonous, blasphemous or feminist to call him mother. Calling God mother is a title straight out of the Gnostic theology of the devine femanine, where all the antithesis false religions derive their goddesses from.

God knows what is in our hearts when we pray and worship. I don't think he will be offended if some people address him as mother, or think of him as father and mother. I think he is more offended if people don't believe in him, believe that Jesus was JUST a man, that we don't need him or that we can get to heaven by our own cleverness, good deeds or good theology.

God has clearly established from before creation what type of relationship he has with his children. Addressing God as mother is Satan's final insult, in destroying the very definition of a family. Here is why.............

Our whole concept of salvation, is that Jesus is sinless and was born sinless, meaning he did not inherit the sins of Adam, because Adam was not his Father, rather God was his Father and Jesus called Him Father. Our only link to Jesus who reconciles us into adoption to the Father is through his earthly mother Mary.

Jesus told Peter get behind me Satan when he said that Jesus should not be crucified and the same Satan wants to corrupt the gospel of salvation even after the fact, by establishing the Temple of THEOLA, where the sinlessness of Jesus is being unwittingly denied, because if a person calls the Father of Jesus mother, then they are destroying the Genesis account of male and female, that is father and mother. All the genologies that Matthew gave onto Mary's account was to establish the uncorrupted human lineage and so Satan throws a spanner in the works by saying that the Father is not the Father, but the Mother, which denies Christ's sinlessness, on par to what Peter said to Jesus, when Jesus replied to him get behind me Satan.

Brothers and sisters as you can plainly discern, the foley of the enemy is exposed.

 

[The Times]

Jesus welcomed tax collectors, sinners and the woman caught in adultery; he accepted the disciples when they argued about who was the greatest and showed little faith. Does that mean that Jesus was a tax collector, and adulterer and sinner? No.

We can love sinners without accepting, and approving of, their lifestyles; Jesus did.

Mark my words, Jesus did not do what you are saying that Jesus did.

In fact, Jesus did the opposite to what you are saying Jesus did.

Here are the biblical facts......

13If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

23And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Jesus instructed his disciples not to leave their peace to sinners who continued to practise sin. He instructed them to no longer associate with the practising sinners.

Jesus condemned the homosexuals of Capernaum and compared their sins to that of Sodom, where he guaranteed their judgement to be more severe than Sodom.

In conclusion, Christians are instructed by Jesus to not associate with sinners who continue to practise sin. A person associating with practising sinners, becomes a sinner by association and the mere fact that they are disobeying the Lord's instructions, within the Great Commission context.

If you find it hard to digest what Christianity means, it means this......

32“Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

34“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn

“ ‘a man against his father,

a daughter against her mother,

a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—

36a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

37“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.38Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.39Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

To associate with practising sinners, is to become Christ's enemies.

 

[Noxot]

you can't call God a Father unless he has a Wife. who is our Fathers Wife? who is my Mother?

 

[The Times]

you can't call God a Father unless he has a Wife. who is our Fathers Wife, who is my Mother?

Fatherhood is a relationship between God and his creation. It is not a procreating role as it is with a male and female. The human father who was Adam, is no longer our father, because we have been brought into adoption, our Father is God, that is why our sins are not accounted to us.

Jesus was the first human born on earth to not have Adam as his Father. Then the rest of us were adopted after we were born again through the reconciliating works of Jesus on the cross.

God is the Father of Jesus, which identified Jesus as sinless, thereby NOT being associated with the fall of Adam. Calling God Mother is unwittingly denying Christ's sinlessness and thereby is an apostate Gnostic teaching, which should be rejected.

THIS IS WHERE GOD CAN NEVER BE CALLED MOTHER.

 

[Noxot]

Fatherhood is a relationship between God and his creation. It is not a procreating role as it is with a male and female. The human father who was Adam, is no longer our father, because we have been brought into adoption, our Father is God, that is why our sins are not accounted to us.

Jesus was the first human born on earth to not have Adam as his Father. Then the rest of us were adopted after we were born again through the reconciliating works of Jesus on the cross.

God is the Father of Jesus, which identified Jesus as sinless, thereby NOT being associated with the fall of Adam. Calling God Mother is unwittingly denying Christ's sinlessness and thereby is an apostate Gnostic teaching, which should be rejected.

THIS IS WHERE GOD CAN NEVER BE CALLED MOTHER.

how is calling God "mother" denying the sinlessness of Christ?

I think Jesus called God his Father because that denotes how he is and I don't know of any father that is good and that has a son that also does not have a good wife. I mean, we are talking about God here. it would appear his example would be the fullness of the best and not some kind of lack.

you could say that mary is Gods mother but is not the Son the Son even before he was born a human?

 

[The Times]

how is calling God mother denying the sinlessness of Christ?

I think Jesus called God his Father because that denotes how he is and I don't know of any father that is good and that has a son that also does not have a good wife.

you could say that mary is Gods mother but is not the Son the Son even before he was born?

Jesus in his miraculous birth had to have had a mother. Adam was not his father, Jesus called God his Father and this would identify his birth not that of a fallen state, meaning with God as his Father Jesus carried not the sins of Adam.

 

[Noxot]

Jesus in his miraculous birth had to have had a mother. Adam was not his father, Jesus called God his Father and this would identify his birth not that of a fallen state, meaning with God as his Father Jesus carried not the sins of Adam.

so is the Son of God only not his Father because he was born a human being?

 

[Vicomte13]

It comes down to the choices we make in this life, that Jesus takes into consideration when determining as to whether we are deserving of him.

34“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn

“ ‘a man against his father,

a daughter against her mother,

a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—

36a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

37“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.38Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.39Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it. (Matthew 10:34-39)

There is a big difference between accepting a repentant sinner, who repents of their sins and asks for help, in vast contrast to accepting and embracing the sins of the sinner(s).

If a person accepts a practising thief, then they welcome stealing into their lives.

If a person accepts a practising murderer, then they welcome a murderer into their lives.

If a person accepts a practising Pedophile, then they welcome a Pedophile into their lives.

If a person accepts a practising homosexual, then they welcome homosexuality into their lives.

If a person accepts a practising inappropriate behavior with animals, then they welcome inappropriate behavior with animals into their lives.

If a person accepts a transgender and/or transhumanist, then they welcome transgender and/or transhumanist into their lives.

At the end of the day, the person who accepts the sin, becomes sin for the sake of protecting the sinner who continues to practice the sin.

It is Sin By Association, that is complicit in crime with the person who committed the crime.

I have heard everything under the Sun. The philosophy of some who say.....

"God will certainly enforce his laws upon all. He never appointed ME cop or judge, and it's not a role I'm going to volunteer for.

Everybody has sins. I'm not going to cut all of the sinners out of my life, because I don't want to.
I'm going to try to resist sins myself"

A person is in a quandary, when they are not resisting sin, when they become the sin for the love of the world and that is why the world accepts them.

Christ's sheep are rejected by the world, especially in the times that we are living in.

Everyone has a choice to make, as to whether they would want to be the sin, in order to be accepted by the world or to reject the sin and the practising sinner and thereby be rejected by the world.

I certainly know where Jesus stands on this point and I am sure that everyone knows, without exception.

As you rightly said......

God will certainly enforce his laws upon all.

Given all of this, why do you still talk to me? I am a sinner. You ought to cut me off.

 

[Vicomte13]

.
JOHN.5: = 14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”

JOHN.8: = And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”

1CORINTHIANS.6: = 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Yes, Jesus DID tell the woman to go forth and sin no more.

No, human beings don't go forth and never sin again after a moment of conversion, unless they die shortly afterwards. This is an example of an impossible standard - something that people DO NOT DO, because they can't, like following all of the old law.

It's useless to pretend that we can, and it's a lie to say that we DO for any appreciable time.

Given reality, what should Christians do?
Pretend to unreality is one answer - but it's a useless one.

 

[Vicomte13]

so is the Son of God only not his Father because he was born a human being?

Obviously. Jesus is half Mary also, of necessity, at least if he was "wholly human" as well as being "wholly divine", per the standard trinintarian formula anyway.

 

[Vicomte13]

.
1CORINTHIANS.5: =
Immorality Defiles the Church
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Immorality Must Be Judged
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."

So, it's Paul versus Jesus, again. I'll go with Jesus, thanks.

 

[Vicomte13]

I wonder why Jesus gave us the story of the prodigal son, Hmmmm.....interesting!

He gave the story of the prodigal son for two reasons:

(1) To show that the Father welcomes back those who stray with open arms.
(2) To show that the people who reject those who come back (the brother) and who complain and whinge about forgiveness, are actually not in accord with God they are less forgiving than God, and wrong.

 

[Noxot]

Obviously. Jesus is half Mary also, of necessity, at least if he was "wholly human" as well as being "wholly divine", per the standard trinintarian formula anyway.

is your religious tradition in agreement with you on this? is this what the catholic church says? what do you say on how the Holy Spirit came to be since you seem to say that the Son of God came about due to our Father becoming a human.

the Trinity is a great mystery and it seems that the problems in this thread could be clarified or solved if we have a good answer rather than having to blindly obey what we think is plain.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
it seems that most people blindly confess the Trinity and that they don't understand him very well at all. so why should we take those people who don't understand as an authority on how we are to worship and love God?

 

[Vicomte13]

is your religious tradition in agreement with you on this? is this what the catholic church says? what do you say on how the Holy Spirit came to be since you seem to say that the Son of God came about due to our Father becoming a human.

I don't seem to say that. It is impossible to read what I said and see that I seem to say that the Father became human.

There is no reasonable interpretation of anything I have written that could lead to that conclusion.
You've made something up out of thin air that doesn't follow from anything I said.

Mary was human. Jesus was fully human. He had a mother and a father. He got an X Chromosome from his mother. He got his Y chromosome from his father. His Father was God. His mother was human.

Now, I would love to say that Jesus was half-human and half-God, but that would not be the position taken by the trinitarian churches. They, rather, all say that Jesus was fully God and fully human, at the same time.

Are you a non-Trinitarian?

 

[Noxot]

I don't seem to say that. It is impossible to read what I said and see that I seem to say that the Father became human.

There is no reasonable interpretation of anything I have written that could lead to that conclusion.
You've made something up out of thin air that doesn't follow from anything I said.

Mary was human. Jesus was fully human. He had a mother and a father. He got an X Chromosome from his mother. He got his Y chromosome from his father. His Father was God. His mother was human.

Now, I would love to say that Jesus was half-human and half-God, but that would not be the position taken by the trinitarian churches. They, rather, all say that Jesus was fully God and fully human, at the same time.

Are you a non-Trinitarian?

that is why I said "seems" because in my eyes it seems that you are saying that the Son of God is only the Son of God because he was born as a human. I believe Jesus is fully God and fully human and unlike most people I believe humanity is something found first in God and if you want to know what true and perfect and realest of real humanity is you have to look to Jesus.

I think that one of the most profound truths proclaimed in our religion and that it has to offer is the Trinity. so no, i'm not a non-Trinitarian.

 

[discipler7]

you can't call God a Father unless he has a Wife. who is our Fathers Wife? who is my Mother?

.
ROMANS.1: = 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
.

MATTHEW.1 =
Christ Born of Mary
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
.

MATTHEW.12: =
Jesus’ Mother and Brothers Send for Him
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”

48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

 

[98cwitr]

Christ says:

Matthew 23:9
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

From Malachi:

Malachi 2:10
Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

 

[Vicomte13]

that is why I said "seems" because in my eyes it seems that you are saying that the Son of God is only the Son of God because he was born as a human.

All right, then let me be as precise as I can be.

Nicene Trinitarians (which includes Catholics and most Protestants) hold that the world "God" means God the Father, and the Son (true God from true God), and the Holy Spirit (who "proceeds from" the Father (for all of them) and the Son (for most of them).

The Father said from the sky to listen to Jesus and follow him. So, when Jesus says that if we are begotten again of water and the spirit, God the Father will be our father too, and we will be brothers and sisters in spirit with him, and all will be children (spiritual children) of God the Father.

In that sense we will all have the same relationship with the Father. He created us all, and is our common father in Heaven.

BUT Jesus' particular relationship with God the Father goes past the spiritual Fatherhood we all share. God was also Jesus' biological father. God MADE Adam, but he BEGAT Jesus, meaning that he biologically fathered him. Jesus is not the only child of God - all of us who have a new spirit given by God are all children of God, and all have the Father as God. But Jesus is the only BEGOTTEN Son of God, the only one who was biologically generated through the reproductive process by his Mother's egg, and the Father's reproductive power (the Bible does not speak of the exact mechanics by which God "overshadowed" Mary and impregnated her, only that he did.)

So that is why Jesus is the only BEGOTTEN son of God: God is Jesus' biological father as well as his spiritual Father.

Jesus was fully human. He was not implanted whole in Mary's womb. He is the product of Mary's egg, which was naturally generated in her body by her body, in the usual way, and the Father's reproductive principle, however that exactly works.

That's what the "only begotten Son" part means.

This does not mean that there is no female principle within God. Indeed, if one speaks of chromosomes as being "principles" then Jesus was "half female", like all other males (we all have at least one X chromosome).

Trinitarians consider the Holy Spirit to be God, and divide over the question of whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, or from the Father alone.

I don't think anybody (except maybe the Church of Sweden) suggests that the Father is female. And the Son is Jesus - a human male. So the discussion then is the matter of the Holy Spirit (which seems to be a plural being, from the description of the Seven Spirits of God before the Throne in Revelation).

Genesis 1 speaks of God making the human in God's image, male and female.

In the Hebrew the feminine aspect of God is obvious and unremarkable: the word "spirit" in Hebrew is a feminine noun, and so the spirit is referred to as "She" throughout the Old Testament. Likewise, the Glory of God - the Shekinah - is a feminine noun and is referred to as "She" throughout.

Jesus spoke Aramaic to his disciples, and in Aramaic, as in the Hebrew whence it descends, "spirit" is a she.

This shouldn't be controversial, because it's true. It is controversial because of tradition and chauvinism.