Church of England to create 'celebratory' transgender liturgies

JazzHands

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CoE has got a lot to answer for in front of God.
I hate to cast aspersions but I suspect Justin Welby (Archbishop of Canterbury) is responsible for this departure. I have nothing against gays but I worry about outspoken clergy with a secular axe to grind!

[Edit] Mind you, it begs the question, who appointed him Archbishop?
 
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Hieronymus

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It’s Sodom and Gemorah.

God gives them over to a strong delusion.

Lord have mercy :crossrc:
This stuff is top down.
Can't really blame the flock for the wickedness and depravities of the clergy and who they answer to.
But if the flock sticks with this insanity they choose for it themselves.
 
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EzekielsWheels

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This stuff is top down.
Can't really blame the flock for the wickedness and depravities of the clergy and who they answer to.
But if the flock sticks with this insanity they choose for it themselves.

I think one issue is what do you do when many of the major denominations have one scandal (or major doctrinal problem) or another? I mean should you just not go to church? I spoke with someone who said that his denomination left him when it changed its doctrinal stance and now he's kind of adrift (at least this was my understanding). It's really a tragedy.
 
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Hieronymus

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I think one issue is what do you do when many of the major denominations have one scandal (or major doctrinal problem) or another? I mean should you just not go to church? I spoke with someone who said that his denomination left him when it changed its doctrinal stance and now he's kind of adrift (at least this was my understanding). It's really a tragedy.
I'm not sure.
I'm not a church goer myself.
Scandals, lukewarmness, craziness and false teachings and spirits are reasons for me to not join a church or denomination.
(Not that i'm a perfect Christian, of course)

Yes, it is tragic.
But the Church is not a building or an organisation.
It's the body of Christ, consisting of Christians who follow Christ.
Still it is tragic.
 
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archer75

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Hm.

This does seem "problematic" at best.

Hm.

I guess my first question is "are there liturgies for those who end up regretting their transition, who want to go back?" If so, do they somehow invalidate the old one?"

I know that divorce raises some of the same questions (and that the RCC doesn't do divorce, but annulments, etc). But anyway, this seems to be even more deeply flawed.

In our confession they do grant "ecclesiastical divorces," and I'm not saying they shouldn't, but it does make me wonder what exactly was sacramental about the marriage rite when it was celebrated. But this isn't a thread for my questions about that.

I guess here, in the case of the CoE, it makes me wonder "what happens, retroactively, to the baptism the person originally received?" And whatever the answer to that is, what happens to this service retroactively if the person whose transition is being celebrated give up on the idea or wants to "go back" (by which I don't mean to suggest that people go into this stuff lightly, but it is documented that at least some DO regret undergoing it).

In general for us "liturgical" Christians, I wonder how we understand sacraments or sacrament-like things when they are basically completely disregarded by the people they were for. It happens all the time with Baptism and Chrismation / Confirmation in our confession and in the RCC, I am sure. I guess you just say the sacramental character is real, but we can always walk away from it?
 
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JazzHands

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Interesting read but no... all of those piecemeal compromises erode away at the very heart of our belief system which is founded in nature, not in the fickle substance that is artificial social morality.

I see the same decay in Western politics.. a rotten core at the heart of an otherwise healthy apple.

Is there any place for a new church just as there is a place for a new political party.. something to unify the uncorrupt?
 
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PloverWing

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I guess my first question is "are there liturgies for those who end up regretting their transition, who want to go back?" If so, do they somehow invalidate the old one?"

I agree that this is something the church should think about. In an ideal world, a person wouldn't go through transition only to change their mind later, just as in an ideal world there wouldn't be divorce. But human beings are imperfect and make mistakes, and the church needs to think about how to deal with messy situations.

On reflection, I don't think our church has a ceremonial rite for divorce, either, even though we have many divorced church members. There's still a lot to figure out.

I guess here, in the case of the CoE, it makes me wonder "what happens, retroactively, to the baptism the person originally received?"

The Anglican tradition, like yours, sees baptism as occurring only once. So whatever rite the Church of England constructs, it won't be a re-baptism, or any kind of repudiation of one's earlier baptism. It might involve a reaffirmation of one's baptismal vows, but that's a different matter. Our tradition has a number of occasions (such as confirmation or returning to the church after a time of unbelief) on which one says, effectively, "Now that I've gone through this change in my life, I want to affirm that I'm still a Christian and recommit myself to Jesus." Such a reaffirmation isn't seen as any kind of rebaptism.

So, the original baptism would still be seen as the one and only baptism in the person's life.

I haven't yet seen any draft liturgies for gender transition. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with.
 
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JazzHands

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I agree that this is something the church should think about. In an ideal world, a person wouldn't go through transition only to change their mind later, just as in an ideal world there wouldn't be divorce. But human beings are imperfect and make mistakes, and the church needs to think about how to deal with messy situations.

On reflection, I don't think our church has a ceremonial rite for divorce, either, even though we have many divorced church members. There's still a lot to figure out.



The Anglican tradition, like yours, sees baptism as occurring only once. So whatever rite the Church of England constructs, it won't be a re-baptism, or any kind of repudiation of one's earlier baptism. It might involve a reaffirmation of one's baptismal vows, but that's a different matter. Our tradition has a number of occasions (such as confirmation or returning to the church after a time of unbelief) on which one says, effectively, "Now that I've gone through this change in my life, I want to affirm that I'm still a Christian and recommit myself to Jesus." Such a reaffirmation isn't seen as any kind of rebaptism.

So, the original baptism would still be seen as the one and only baptism in the person's life.

I haven't yet seen any draft liturgies for gender transition. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with.
How can one be washed of their sins twice? Surely it would be sacrilege? You don't humble yourself before God then insult him!
 
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PloverWing

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Oops, I just realized that this is in the Catholic forum. And I see that archer75 has quite sensibly started a discussion of the topic over in STR, which is a better forum for discussing Anglican theology anyway. So I'll quietly take my leave, and all of us non-Catholics can continue the discussion over there.
 
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JazzHands

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Oops, I just realized that this is in the Catholic forum. And I see that archer75 has quite sensibly started a discussion of the topic over in STR, which is a better forum for discussing Anglican theology anyway. So I'll quietly take my leave, and all of us non-Catholics can continue the discussion over there.
No, it's fine Plover.. it's a pet peeve of mine. You raised an interesting question and I have no answer besides my usual and that is that transgenderism is not something I can ever accept
 
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