Church is where the heart is

[topher694]

No, the general church system is at fault. It's easy to be lazy and let the man at the front do everything for you. Just lay back and suckle, that's what they are taught to do.

ok, right. You've diagnosed the issue with the entire Body of Christ. It's not, fear, pride, selfishness, unforgiveness, and the like, it is the buildings and the pastors. If it weren't for those pesky pastors we'd all be fine.

 

[Tolworth John]

The church is modelled on the hierarchical structures of the world, not on what Jesus or Paul taught.

Francis you are letting yourbias against organised Christianity show.
Many churches have striven to follow the example of church organisation as seen in the NT, yes it is men organising people, but Christianity is people seeking to be obedient to Jesus, both fail.

The NT teaches about pastors, teachers, about ordered services/meetings, about discipline, having elders, deacons etc Paul's instructions to Timothy is to one man in charge of a church.
An authoritative structure is there in the NT.

It is how we today use the structure in our church.

 

[NeverL0ved]

The point being....?

-CryptoLutheran

To use your brain, the one your God gave you

 

[NeverL0ved]

I for one among many was very grateful for our comfortable building on Sunday as storm Dennis rated across England. Just walking to where I parked the car got me soaked.

What is wrong with having a comfortable building or a minister?

You have the living spirit of God inside you, and you need a building or a minister?

 

[NeverL0ved]

Yes, he did. Does that mean that all Christians are obliged to gather in the least convenient, least efficient, least accessible venues...or else there is something morally wrong??

Does the geometric shape of all these boxes people worship in actually occur in nature naturally?

 

[NeverL0ved]

No He did not only teach from a mount, boat, and peoples homes. He also taught from within the Temple at Jerusalem, and in other synagogues as well. Besides what is your point? Were you even trying to make one?

Exactly how welcome was Jesus or any future Apostle when they taught in Temples & Synagogues?

 

[topher694]

You have the living spirit of God inside you, and you need a building or a minister?

Why would we need any of that when we've got you to set us straight?

 

[ViaCrucis]

To use your brain, the one your God gave you

So you don't have a point. Understood.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Francis Drake]

Francis you are letting yourbias against organised Christianity show.

Absolutely yes, I am biased, just as you are biased.

Many churches have striven to follow the example of church organisation as seen in the NT, yes it is men organising people,

The church was never meant to be an organisation, it is an organism, a living body.

but Christianity is people seeking to be obedient to Jesus, both fail.

The church supplants Jesus, teaching obedience to itself or its officers, not to Jesus. The saints are left infantile, having no experience of hearing God speak and direct their paths through life.

The NT teaches about pastors, teachers,

Its noticeable that you present those who can do their job by academic prowess whether they have Holy Spirit not, and leave out prophets who can do nothing without the Spirit.

about ordered services/meetings,

Scripture is not talking about the sort of order seen in churches today.

about discipline, having elders, deacons etc Paul's instructions to Timothy is to one man in charge of a church.

Jesus completely repudiated the sort of structure you talk about. We are a Royal Priesthood and there is nobody higher up the ladder than anyone else. The elders deacons etc, were not officers in the church, they are just older and more mature believers.

 

[Tolworth John]

You have the living spirit of God inside you, and you need a building or a minister?

Yes, because we are made for fellowship with people, so God causes us to want to be with like minded people.
When someone says they don't want to meet with other Christians there is always a fault there.
They have been hurt, mislead, etc and they are usually frighten to risk trusting 'Christians' again.

 

[Tolworth John]

Absolutely yes, I am biased, just as you are biased.

The church was never meant to be an organisation, it is an organism, a living body.

The church supplants Jesus, teaching obedience to itself or its officers, not to Jesus. The saints are left infantile, having no experience of hearing God speak and direct their paths through life.

Its noticeable that you present those who can do their job by academic prowess whether they have Holy Spirit not, and leave out prophets who can do nothing without the Spirit.

Scripture is not talking about the sort of order seen in churches today.

Jesus completely repudiated the sort of structure you talk about. We are a Royal Priesthood and there is nobody higher up the ladder than anyone else. The elders deacons etc, were not officers in the church, they are just older and more mature believers.

Francis,
You are both right and wrong'.
Every organisation, whether a big multinational denomination, a local independent or a house church fits into what you decry and what I cry.
It is the people who by there obedience to Jesus enable a church to 'work' or by there disobedience to fail.

Jesus in his talk with the women at the well said rites and rituals were not necessary, depending how one reads Paul, one can read ritual into some of his letters, if by ritual something that is done regularly when meeting for worship. Standing to sing from a hymn book each Sunday is a ritual.

One question I've not seen you answer.
The work of Christian missions around the world, without the Churches' that support them how would they function?
Or the Christian training colleges, would you have them close and rely on the Spirit empowering a person to enter Christian service?

The church I attend has supported several young men though college and into Christian service. They have all talked about what they benefitted from college, how it sharpened their ability, prepared them for cross cultural situations.

It is the organisational side of the church that makes missionary work possible.

 

[Albion]

A lot of what's been said here misses a very obvious point. While the followers of Jesus assemble almost anywhere they choose, they cannot by gathering informally do many of the things that the church of the New Testament did and we are also expected to do.

Yes, there's fellowship and there can be a sharing of the Gospel. A simple Bible Study group accomplishes that. But most of what we see described in the NT is absent or, if not that, is done by someone present on a do-it-yourself basis--which is also contrary to the New Testament.

And yet, most of the people who advocate for that informal kind of assembly insist that they are guided by the Bible when it comes to belief and practice.

 

[Deus Vult!]

Exactly how welcome was Jesus or any future Apostle when they taught in Temples & Synagogues?

At times extremely welcome. Other times extremely unwelcome. When our Lord was just but 12 years of age He was teaching in the Temple, and all those who were listening to Him marveled at His wisdom. Again I just don't see your point. You don't see your point. You are struggling to squeeze a point out of this because there really isn't one to be made to begin with.

Our Lord taught everywhere. Our Lord truly gives Himself - in reality - in the substance consecrated bread and wine. Because of this precious gift of our Lord there is a need of a structure - or building - to actively provide some guardianship for this gift of God, not to mention the obvious benefit of keeping the congregation out of the elements during the sacred liturgy and worship of our Lord...

The problem with your erroneous lines of thought is because you reject the truth from the outset and chase after the teachings of men rather than the teachings of the ancient undivided Church of Jesus Christ. If and when you let go of every preconceived notion you currently hold concerning our Sacred Scripture and Tradition you will then be absolutely blown away by the beauty of our Lord. Jesus Christ is more beautiful than any Jesus that currently exists in your imagination.
Peace of Jesus Christ to you. May He bless you and keep you. And may His Spirit humble you in this life rather than in the next.

 

[Deus Vult!]

Absolutely yes, I am biased, just as you are biased.

The church was never meant to be an organisation, it is an organism, a living body.

The church supplants Jesus, teaching obedience to itself or its officers, not to Jesus. The saints are left infantile, having no experience of hearing God speak and direct their paths through life.

Its noticeable that you present those who can do their job by academic prowess whether they have Holy Spirit not, and leave out prophets who can do nothing without the Spirit.

Scripture is not talking about the sort of order seen in churches today.

Jesus completely repudiated the sort of structure you talk about. We are a Royal Priesthood and there is nobody higher up the ladder than anyone else. The elders deacons etc, were not officers in the church, they are just older and more mature believers.

"The church was never meant to be an organisation, it is an organism, a living body." - Definition of 'Organisation':
or·gan·i·za·tion
/ˌôrɡənəˈzāSH(ə)n noun: organisation:
1.an organized body of people with a particular purpose, especially a business, society, association, etc.
2. the action of organizing something.
"the organization of conferences and seminars"
3.an efficient and orderly approach to tasks.
"apparent disorder and lack of organization"

The Church is by definition an organisation, it is organized, and ought to be.

"The church supplants Jesus, teaching obedience to itself or its officers, not to Jesus. The saints are left infantile, having no experience of hearing God speak and direct their paths through life." - The Church is the Body of Christ. Those that receive the Apostolic Priesthood are in fact receiving Jesus Himself. Those who reject the Apostles or their successors are rejecting the Lord Himself. See: St.Luke (10:16); St.Matthew (10:40); Whoever does not hear the Apostolic ministry present within the Church is likened to the infidel and non-believer: St. Matthew (18:17).

"Scripture is not talking about the sort of order seen in churches today." - It most certainly does. The Scripture was written for an already existing Church structure exactly as we see it today among the Western and Eastern Catholic Churches. You either are ignorant of Ecclesiology or are a liar.
Ecclesiology:

1. the study of churches, especially church building and decoration.
2. theology as applied to the nature and structure of the Christian Church.

"Jesus completely repudiated the sort of structure you talk about." - Lie. Give one reference of this "complete repudiation".

"We are a Royal Priesthood and there is nobody higher up the ladder than anyone else." - Lie. The Apostles are obviously higher than the newly converted proselyte. St.Paul explicitly refers to positions that are held by believers that place them higher and lower among one another. Just one example would be this in 1st Corinthians (12:28) which reads:
"27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it.
28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?…"

"The elders deacons etc, were not officers in the church, they are just older and more mature believers." - There is no way that you believe this. You are either completely ignorant of what Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons are. Or you are intentionally lying to validate your personal erroneous understanding of the Scripture. I think in your case it is the latter. Most certainly there may be a Presbyter that is younger than another Christian in the congregation and the technically older Christian would still address the Presbyter as "pastor", "father", "reverend",etc.
Just as St.Paul referred to himself as "father", see: 1st Corinthians (4:15) which reads:
"For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel."
Just as our Lord Himself referred Abraham as being the "father" of the Israeli people, see St. John (8:56)
"56 Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see My day. He saw it and was glad.”

Or in St.John (6:49), which reads:
"Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead."

There are countless examples of spiritual "fatherhood" in the Sacred Scripture. All those who belong to Christ are said to be the "seed of Abraham", yes Abraham is counted as our father in the Faith. The Apostles are also our fathers in the Gospel. Our Bishops, priests, and deacons are counted as our fathers in the Gospel as well...
You are so far off the beaten path because you are rejecting the Sacred Tradition of the Church and twisting and contorting the Scripture to validate your own interpretation of the Sacred Scripture.
Our Lord have mercy on you on that Day sir.

 

[pleinmont]

"The church was never meant to be an organisation, it is an organism, a living body." - Definition of 'Organisation':
or·gan·i·za·tion
/ˌôrɡənəˈzāSH(ə)n noun: organisation:
1.an organized body of people with a particular purpose, especially a business, society, association, etc.
2. the action of organizing something.
"the organization of conferences and seminars"
3.an efficient and orderly approach to tasks.
"apparent disorder and lack of organization"

The Church is by definition an organisation, it is organized, and ought to be.

"The church supplants Jesus, teaching obedience to itself or its officers, not to Jesus. The saints are left infantile, having no experience of hearing God speak and direct their paths through life." - The Church is the Body of Christ. Those that receive the Apostolic Priesthood are in fact receiving Jesus Himself. Those who reject the Apostles or their successors are rejecting the Lord Himself. See: St.Luke (10:16); St.Matthew (10:40); Whoever does not hear the Apostolic ministry present within the Church is likened to the infidel and non-believer: St. Matthew (18:17).

"Scripture is not talking about the sort of order seen in churches today." - It most certainly does. The Scripture was written for an already existing Church structure exactly as we see it today among the Western and Eastern Catholic Churches. You either are ignorant of Ecclesiology or are a liar.
Ecclesiology:

1. the study of churches, especially church building and decoration.
2. theology as applied to the nature and structure of the Christian Church.

"Jesus completely repudiated the sort of structure you talk about." - Lie. Give one reference of this "complete repudiation".

"We are a Royal Priesthood and there is nobody higher up the ladder than anyone else." - Lie. The Apostles are obviously higher than the newly converted proselyte. St.Paul explicitly refers to positions that are held by believers that place them higher and lower among one another. Just one example would be this in 1st Corinthians (12:28) which reads:
"27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it.
28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?…"

"The elders deacons etc, were not officers in the church, they are just older and more mature believers." - There is no way that you believe this. You are either completely ignorant of what Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons are. Or you are intentionally lying to validate your personal erroneous understanding of the Scripture. I think in your case it is the latter. Most certainly there may be a Presbyter that is younger than another Christian in the congregation and the technically older Christian would still address the Presbyter as "pastor", "father", "reverend",etc.
Just as St.Paul referred to himself as "father", see: 1st Corinthians (4:15) which reads:
"For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel."
Just as our Lord Himself referred Abraham as being the "father" of the Israeli people, see St. John (8:56)
"56 Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see My day. He saw it and was glad.”

Or in St.John (6:49), which reads:
"Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead."

There are countless examples of spiritual "fatherhood" in the Sacred Scripture. All those who belong to Christ are said to be the "seed of Abraham", yes Abraham is counted as our father in the Faith. The Apostles are also our fathers in the Gospel. Our Bishops, priests, and deacons are counted as our fathers in the Gospel as well...
You are so far off the beaten path because you are rejecting the Sacred Tradition of the Church and twisting and contorting the Scripture to validate your own interpretation of the Sacred Scripture.
Our Lord have mercy on you on that Day sir.

The church is just an organisation like any other. In the case of the RCC it is a very damaging one, imo.

 

[Peter John]

Today's Christians gather in buildings and are taught from a person behind a pulpit. However, Jesus taught from a mount, a boat and peoples homes.

Did he not?

“Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.” Gen11v4

Tower is migdol in Hebrew- meaning pulpit or rostrum, which is generally higher than the lowly folks. Having been in all sorts of churches like this, has a similar vein to what they were trying to do with the tower of Babel, that is to mimic God, who said "Let us make man", compared to them saying "let us make a name for ourselves". A lot of your big US churches, are like this too, with lots of money for the leaders, like those on so-called Christian TV.

 

[Robban]

“Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.” Gen11v4

Tower is migdol in Hebrew- meaning pulpit or rostrum, which is generally higher than the lowly folks. Having been in all sorts of churches like this, has a similar vein to what they were trying to do with the tower of Babel, that is to mimic God, who said "Let us make man", compared to them saying "let us make a name for ourselves". A lot of your big US churches, are like this too, with lots of money for the leaders, like those on so-called Christian TV.

The Babel event is a serious matter, worth consideration today.

An intressting article by Mendel Kalmenson
called "Ticket to heaven".

"Each man said to his fellow............
come let us build us a city, and a tower with it,s top in the heavens and let us make a name for ourselves,

lest we be dispersed across the whole earth."

They said: "G-d does not have the right to select for
Himself alone the higher realms.

We will go up to the firmanent and wage war with Him."

This is alluded to in their words,
"Let us build us a tower with it,s top in the heavens."

They said: "Once every 1,656 years,
the firmanent collapses as it did in the days of the flood.
Come let us make a support for it."
This is alluded to in their words,

"Let us build a tower with it,s top in the heavens
(i.e,in order to support the heavens)
lest we be dispersed across the whole earth."

By creating the worlds first tower,
the people of Babel sought to go down in the worlds
hall of fame: "Come let us build us a city, and a tower
with it,s top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves,
lest we be dispersed across the whole earth."

A decoded reading of the words,
"Lest we be dispersed across the whole earth."

"Lest we fall between the cracks of history."

The people of Babel did indeed go down in history,
but not exactly as they would have liked;

Instead of glory and stardom,
their name is smeared with shame.

 

[Peter John]

Good article, Babel, they were disobedient. Then Israel was carried away to Babylon because of their disobedience, of not keeping the 7th yr Sabbath, as they did not trust they would have enough food & crops, to let the land lie fallow for a year. Babylon then destroyed, but the Beast system still lives on, after Babylon, Persia, Greece & Rome, to the Roman Catholic & Protestant churches. Literal Babylon gone, spiritual Babylon (self) will go, on the return of Yeshua.

 

[Albion]

The church is just an organisation like any other. In the case of the RCC it is a very damaging one, imo.

...an organization "just like any other" except that this one was founded by Son of God.

Sounds to me like this one does not qualify as being "just like any other."

 

[Deus Vult!]

The church is just an organisation like any other. In the case of the RCC it is a very damaging one, imo.

Technically any organized group with a purpose is an organization. Atheists, agnostics, communists, liberals, conservatives, the Church, and every single "christian denomination" along the way. Your claim of the RCC being a very "damaging one" is unfounded really. A case could be made to allege the same accusation against every organization that has ever existed. The reason is because humans are involved in organizations, and humans sin. Quite obvious also that this is your opinion only because it is being filtered through your unbelieving - merely natural - mind. The faithful would pray with me that the Blessed in Heaven give you even more grace. That your eyes would be opened to the truth and that you would confess the Nicene Creed before your end.
Peace of Jesus Christ be with you.