Church history on the Catholic Bible vs Protestant Bible?

[MyGivenNameIsKeith]

The Trail of Blood is a work of fiction.

-CryptoLutheran

Trail of Blood was published in 1931 according to online sources, and is not the one I have or am even referring to. The one I have is titled A Concise History of Baptists by G.W. Orchard (traced back to the time of Christ) published in 1838. different author, different book. Not sure your intentions here, but I do not regard them as friendly, and have seen them as rather hostile. If you have a problem with the text, take it up with the author.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Trail of Blood was published in 1931 according to online sources, and is not the one I have or am even referring to. The one I have is titled A Concise History of Baptists by G.W. Orchard (traced back to the time of Christ) published in 1838. different author, different book. Not sure your intentions here, but I do not regard them as friendly, and have seen them as rather hostile. If you have a problem with the text, take it up with the author.

I was being brash, but my point is fairly straightforward: Landmarkism is in and of itself fiction. The idea that there is a chain of Baptists going all the way to Jesus is objectively false. Landmarkists make their case by linking together a chain of various heretical unrelated sects with the general argument of "This sect was mistreated by the official Church, therefore it's Baptists." Paulicians, Bogomils, Cathars, Waldensians, Lollards are all appealed to as representatives of "Real Christians" (aka Baptists) in history. Nevermind that these groups all taught nothing remotely similar to what Baptists teach and believe, or that most of these groups are deeply heretical, or that they taught and believed things completely contrary to one another.

There is precisely no evidence that a Baptist existed prior to the first English Baptists of the 17th century, a splinter, separatist, non-conformist sect which broke away from the Church of England, like a lot of other early non-conformist groups such as Quakers and Congregationalists.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[MyGivenNameIsKeith]

Since we are all so high minded and intelligent, here is the definition of a Baptist according to Wikipedia. read it and tell me this "doctrine" doesn't go back to the bible itself ..

Baptists are Christians belonging to local churches that are mainly distinguished by baptising professing believers only. A Baptist church generally consists of a gathered group of believers that subscribe to a doctrine that baptism should be performed only for professing believers (believer's baptism, as opposed to infant baptism), and that it should be done by complete immersion (as opposed to affusion or sprinkling). Other tenets of Baptist churches include soul competency (liberty), salvation through faith alone, Scripture alone as the rule of faith and practice, and the autonomy of the local congregation. Baptists recognize two ministerial offices, pastors and deacons, and two ordinances, baptism and the Lord's supper (also called, communion).

 

[Root of Jesse]

Since we are all so high minded and intelligent, here is the definition of a Baptist according to Wikipedia. read it and tell me this "doctrine" doesn't go back to the bible itself ..

Baptists are Christians belonging to local churches that are mainly distinguished by baptising professing believers only. A Baptist church generally consists of a gathered group of believers that subscribe to a doctrine that baptism should be performed only for professing believers (believer's baptism, as opposed to infant baptism), and that it should be done by complete immersion (as opposed to affusion or sprinkling). Other tenets of Baptist churches include soul competency (liberty), salvation through faith alone, Scripture alone as the rule of faith and practice, and the autonomy of the local congregation. Baptists recognize two ministerial offices, pastors and deacons, and two ordinances, baptism and the Lord's supper (also called, communion).

Well, Wikipedia doesn't teach accurate theology. But let's take it apart. The first problem is that the Bible doesn't ever say baptism has to be performed for only professing believers. Nor does it say that it cannot be performed on infants, nor does it say it should be done by immersion. The Bible also doesn't speak of salvation through faith alone, Scripture alone, or autonomy of the local congregation. Nor are baptism and "the Lord's Supper" the only ordinances.
Regarding baptism, when entire households were baptized, that could include infants, and it doesn't say that they were professing believers. (Acts 16:33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized.) When Peter converted 5000 in Jerusalem, they weren't baptized by immersion (they would have polluted a short supply of water).
Christ instituted 7 sacraments (you call them ordinances). Baptism, Confirmation, Marriage, Eucharist, Holy Orders, Reconciliation and Anointing the sick.

 

[prodromos]

Since we are all so high minded and intelligent, here is the definition of a Baptist according to Wikipedia. read it and tell me this "doctrine" doesn't go back to the bible itself ..

Baptists are Christians belonging to local churches that are mainly distinguished by baptising professing believers only. A Baptist church generally consists of a gathered group of believers that subscribe to a doctrine that baptism should be performed only for professing believers (believer's baptism, as opposed to infant baptism), and that it should be done by complete immersion (as opposed to affusion or sprinkling). Other tenets of Baptist churches include soul competency (liberty), salvation through faith alone, Scripture alone as the rule of faith and practice, and the autonomy of the local congregation. Baptists recognize two ministerial offices, pastors and deacons, and two ordinances, baptism and the Lord's supper (also called, communion).

No mention of belief that God is three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, co-eternal. No mention of belief that Jesus is true man and true God, that He truly suffered and that He truly died. I didn't realise these were optional beliefs for Baptists. Is that how you are able to trace your lineage through a bunch of heretical splinter groups?

 

[MyGivenNameIsKeith]

I provided a title to a book which I inherited, which I've never read which I thought would be useful in formulating a response to the earlier post. I have to question your attempts at criticism of me personally. I've never attempted to trace people according to divisions and political affiliations.
Bible says repent and be baptized. You repent, then as a believer, you get baptized according to faith. Philip and the Ethiopian.... or did you fail to include that for arguments sake?
And what is an ordinance?
What is a sacrament?

 

[Root of Jesse]

I provided a title to a book which I inherited, which I've never read which I thought would be useful in formulating a response to the earlier post. I have to question your attempts at criticism of me personally. I've never attempted to trace people according to divisions and political affiliations.
Bible says repent and be baptized. You repent, then as a believer, you get baptized according to faith. Philip and the Ethiopian.... or did you fail to include that for arguments sake?
And what is an ordinance?
What is a sacrament?

I haven't criticized you personally, first of all. If you're talking about 'Baptist', though, isn't it, in and of itself, a division? A denomination?
Philip was one case of an adult baptism. But the Bible doesn't say repent and be baptized. Jesus told his apostles to go out into the world baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Nothing about repenting there.
An ordinance is a law. A sacrament is an action which does what it says it does.

a religious ceremony or act of the Christian Church that is regarded as an outward and visible sign of inward and spiritual divine grace, in particular.

• (in the Roman Catholic and many Orthodox Churches) the rites of baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist, penance, anointing of the sick, ordination, and matrimony.
• (among Protestants) baptism and the Eucharist.
• (in Roman Catholic use) the consecrated elements of the Eucharist, especially the Host:
  "he heard Mass and received the sacrament"
• a thing of mysterious and sacred significance; a religious symbol.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Since we are all so high minded and intelligent, here is the definition of a Baptist according to Wikipedia. read it and tell me this "doctrine" doesn't go back to the bible itself ..

Baptists are Christians belonging to local churches that are mainly distinguished by baptising professing believers only. A Baptist church generally consists of a gathered group of believers that subscribe to a doctrine that baptism should be performed only for professing believers (believer's baptism, as opposed to infant baptism), and that it should be done by complete immersion (as opposed to affusion or sprinkling). Other tenets of Baptist churches include soul competency (liberty), salvation through faith alone, Scripture alone as the rule of faith and practice, and the autonomy of the local congregation. Baptists recognize two ministerial offices, pastors and deacons, and two ordinances, baptism and the Lord's supper (also called, communion).

Yes, those are what are known as "Baptist distinctives"; as the Baptist tradition tends to frown on larger hierarchal structures, it instead has focused on particular distinctive beliefs and practices which permit communion between congregations and the forming of conventions. The most well known of such conventions in the US is the Southern Baptist Convention.

These Baptist distinctives are functionally a kind of creed, a collection of ideas which gives cohesion to the word "Baptist"; in much the same way that the Lutheran Confessions give identity to Lutheranism as a tradition, or similar confessional statements in other traditions do for theirs.

This doesn't mean that everyone who holds one or two of the practices, especially superficially, with the Baptist distinctives that they themselves are Baptists. Anabaptists rejected infant baptism, but they aren't Baptists. The Eastern Churches continue to baptize through immersion, but they aren't Baptists. Etc.

The Baptist tradition is codified by its Baptist distinctives, but as a tradition is still something which has arisen in history and exists as a matter of history. And so tracing Baptists earlier than post-Reformation era England is impossible, because Baptists didn't exist prior to then.

Baptist Distinctives
http://web.engr.oregonstate.edu/~moon/oregonstatefscf/BAPTISTS.pdf
Baptists - Wikipedia
Baptist History and Heritage Society | Baptist Beginnings

-CryoptoLutheran

 

[MyGivenNameIsKeith]

But the Bible doesn't say repent and be baptized. Jesus told his apostles to go out into the world baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Nothing about repenting there.

Acts of the Apostles 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Isaiah 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

Acts of the Apostles 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mark 16:15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Acts of the Apostles 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 2:4-5 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I tend to disagree with your statement. The Bible says to repent, tells you how to repent, and encourages it, and shows that if you do not, Christ is not in you.