Church history on the Catholic Bible vs Protestant Bible?

tz620q

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Good Day, His

Can I have a primary source Jewish and 1 century for this...

"The Deuterocanonicals were in fact, PART of the OPEN Jewish Canon of Scripture.":

I find historically primary source:


"I learned accurately the books of the Old Testament, and send them to thee as written below. Their names are as follows: Of Moses, five books: Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Deuteronomy; Jesus Nave, Judges, Ruth; of Kings, four books; of Chronicles, two; the Psalms of David, the Proverbs of Solomon, Wisdom also, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Job; of Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah; of the twelve prophets, one book; Daniel, Ezekiel, Esdras. From which also I have made the extracts, dividing them into six books." (Melito of Sardis, cited in Eusebius, Church History, 4:26)
Do you accept the Wisdom of Solomon as being canonical like Melito did? I led a bible study of this book and found it to be very prophetic. One cannot read it as a Christian without finding one after another verse that points straight to Jesus.
 
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tz620q

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Good day,

Church history and the canon.. here we go.

The church of rome has a canon that was finalized at Trent. Seeing I am not a member of that denomination it has very little effect on the historical reality of the question. She has defined her canon and has done so in a way that is unhistorical. She claim authority on the issue, and expects her members to follow long (name it claim it). Historically she is in error with what she defined at Trent.



Our analysis has shown that the vast weight of historical evidence falls on the side of excluding the Apocrypha from the category of canonical Scripture. It is interesting to note that the only two Fathers of the early Church who are considered to be true biblical scholars, Jerome and Origen (and who both spent time in the area of Palestine and were therefore familiar with the Hebrew canon), rejected the Apocrypha. And the near unanimous opinion of the Church followed this view. And coupled with this historical evidence is the fact that these writings have serious internal difficulties in that they are characterized by heresies, inconsistencies and historical inaccuracies which invalidate their being given the status of Scripture. New Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. I (Washington D.C.: Catholic University, 1967), p. 390.

In Him,

Bill
Bill,
I would appreciate if you would stop using this quote as you cannot link to the source material and I have done the legwork to show you that this article is no longer the same in the 2003 edition of the New Catholic Encylcopedia.
 
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BBAS 64

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Bill,
I would appreciate if you would stop using this quote as you cannot link to the source material and I have done the legwork to show you that this article is no longer the same in the 2003 edition of the New Catholic Encylcopedia.


Good Day, TZ

I know you have... but does the new 2003 edition invalidate the historical realities of the earlier versions.

You never gave me that impression, you indicated it had changed and was long, but yes never inferred it was substantially different in it's conclusions (historically).

Do you have a link to the 2003 ED I know you need to get a physical copy. I do believe Raymond Brown in his work "The Jerome Biblical Commentary- 1968" uses the same quote I am using from the edition. When addressing the Jewish OT canon.....

I also got the feeling that you did not find the 1967 comments to be inaccurate from a historical point of view, did I misunderstand you?

Is it a rule that if you use a source you must be able to link to it?

In Him,

Bill
 
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Do you accept the Wisdom of Solomon as being canonical like Melito did? I led a bible study of this book and found it to be very prophetic. One cannot read it as a Christian without finding one after another verse that points straight to Jesus.

Good Day,

Based on our discussion you know my view on that question....
 
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tz620q

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Good Day,

Based on our discussion you know my view on that question....
Yes, but I would strongly recommend reading it. It is an early Jewish attempt (roughly 150 B.C.) of synthesizing the Greek concept of soul with the Jewish scriptures. It is also one of the earliest books that seems to have a NT mentality on the resurrection of the soul and the need for a suffering Savior (preceded, of course, by Isaiah's suffering servant section).
 
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tz620q

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Good Day, TZ

I know you have... but does the new 2003 edition invalidate the historical realities of the earlier versions.

You never gave me that impression, you indicated it had changed and was long, but yes never inferred it was substantially different in it's conclusions (historically).

Do you have a link to the 2003 ED I know you need to get a physical copy. I do believe Raymond Brown in his work "The Jerome Biblical Commentary- 1968" uses the same quote I am using from the edition. When addressing the Jewish OT canon.....

I also got the feeling that you did not find the 1967 comments to be inaccurate from a historical point of view, did I misunderstand you?

Is it a rule that if you use a source you must be able to link to it?

In Him,

Bill
I do think that it is required to link to the source material. It is also a rule that we can only post up to 20% of copyrighted material. So if I posted the full article from the 2003 edition, I would be in violation of this rule.

As far as the article changing, yes it has, there is no mention of the section that you referred too, or any doubt cast about the canonicity of the deuterocanonical books. It is hard to find a physical copy of the 1967 edition of this encyclopedia to check your reference against, since the 1967 edition has been superseded by the 2003 edition.

In regards to the historicity of the 1967 edition, it seems to be expressing opinion on the matter and not fact. As far as my opinion, I've tried to look at this from the perspective of the early Church and not purely from that part that is now called the Catholic Church. When I did this, I saw that the part that is now the Catholic Church acknowledged an abbreviated Septuagint OT in the 380-390's A.D. timeframe.
Subsequent to this decision, Jerome was tasked with creating a Latin translation of this canon. The wider Church, mainly the Church in the East, including the Mideast and Egypt, did not use this canon and allowed individual churches to use their own canons. To them a Latin translation would have not been a priority, since they used other languages.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Good Day, Jesse

I am using the term Apocrypha in the correct historical sense..



And again here:
Let me ask you a question: Why does it matter what the Jews considered apocrypha? We're Christian and we have our own Canon, not something the Jews agree with. The Jews wouldn't agree with the NT and what it says, so why do we go to the Jews for our Canon?
You can dispute all you would like, but that would be a dispute that historically you have lost many years ago. I know it does not fit you presuppositions... your basis of dispute is empty.
Historically as in Jerome is only one voice of many Church Fathers, and his voice has been misinterpreted? Those 7 books are historically known as Deuterocanon.
Good question why did he include the Apocrypha... for their historical value to the church for their edification. But one can see here Jerome's historical recording for us of the Church' s view and correct use of the "not received canonical scriptures" for the explict purpose " for the edification of the people" and "not for the authoritative conformation of doctrine"
That's why it's "Deuterocanon", not Apocrypha. Though there's many apocryphal books.
In Him,

Bill
 
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Let me ask you a question: Why does it matter what the Jews considered apocrypha? We're Christian and we have our own Canon, not something the Jews agree with. The Jews wouldn't agree with the NT and what it says, so why do we go to the Jews for our Canon?
Historically as in Jerome is only one voice of many Church Fathers, and his voice has been misinterpreted? Those 7 books are historically known as Deuterocanon.That's why it's "Deuterocanon", not Apocrypha. Though there's many apocryphal books.

Good Day, Jesse

You have not shown any proof of what the Jews considered "apocrypha, I have done much reading on the subject and can not recall (my memory is not as good as it once was) historically and Jewish source using such a term.. so that begs a question where did you get such an idea?

Just a bit of distinction you are a member of the church of Rome who defined a canon for its members ( which is fine) and that church even post Trent would fall into the category of christian for sure. The question at hand by the OP is historical in nature. The question of the NT is indeed one of History as well so I completely understand the Jewish view on it in that context.

I quoted a pre Trent Cardinal who echoed Jerome and uses the word apocrypha. I will assume that he understood quite well the reflections of Jerome historically far better than you do ( no disrespect). I just find him more compelling historically on the question. Unless you are able to convince me other wise that your view has more historical weight than his... I will stick with him.

I showed 2 historical uses for the term apocrypha within a specific context, the reason I do not use deuterocanon is it is historically void and useless on the question as the term is from the early 1500's.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Root of Jesse

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Good Day, Jesse

You have not shown any proof of what the Jews considered "apocrypha, I have done much reading on the subject and can not recall (my memory is not as good as it once was) historically and Jewish source using such a term.. so that begs a question where did you get such an idea?
Well, what we know is that there was no "Jewish Canon" until after there was a Christian Canon. We know also that the Sadducees only had the Torah as their Canon, so we can say we do not have a common Jewish Canon. We also know that no NT Book would be considered Jewish Canon. So again, why would we look to the Jews for our Canon of Scripture?
Just a bit of distinction you are a member of the church of Rome who defined a canon for its members ( which is fine) and that church even post Trent would fall into the category of christian for sure. The question at hand by the OP is historical in nature. The question of the NT is indeed one of History as well so I completely understand the Jewish view on it in that context.

I quoted a pre Trent Cardinal who echoed Jerome and uses the word apocrypha. I will assume that he understood quite well the reflections of Jerome historically far better than you do ( no disrespect). I just find him more compelling historically on the question. Unless you are able to convince me other wise that your view has more historical weight than his... I will stick with him.

I showed 2 historical uses for the term apocrypha within a specific context, the reason I do not use deuterocanon is it is historically void and useless on the question as the term is from the early 1500's.

In Him,

Bill
Catholics do not refer to “the rest of the Old Testament” as “apocrypha,” because the books are in fact canonical, not spurious or contested. The word we use is “deuterocanonical.” This refers to the fact that at one time, back in the early centuries, they were in fact contested. However, since the series of Church councils beginning in the fourth century which laid out which books were accepted as Sacred Scripture, they have all been canonical. It was only with the advent of Protestantism, and specifically with Martin Luther’s rejection of these books (and parts of a couple others), that the question has arisen. But within the Catholic Church, there has been no question since the fourth century. Just to make sure, the Council of Trent, in the latter half of the sixteenth century, solemnly defined against the Protestants that the bible does indeed contain all the books listed in the canons of the earlier centuries.
It was St. Jerome who argued against the inclusion of the deuterocanonical books. He had studied Hebrew with some Palestinian rabbis and had been influenced by their viewpoint. Palestinian Jews rejected the larger canon on the ground that the additional works were not originally written in Hebrew, while Jews in the rest of the world used the larger canon. In the end, St. Jerome accepted the ruling of pope Damasus and the Synod of Rome (AD 382) in favor of the larger canon and proceeded to translate them when he was doing the Old Testament series from the Septuagint (Greek) text. (He later did another series from the Hebrew text, which adhered to the shorter canon. But this is because the Greek works were not included in the Hebrew texts he worked with, not because he rejected them.)

Meanwhile, St. Augustine was the champion of the larger canon and heartily endorsed the Septuagint as the basis for translation into other languages, including Latin. Also, it was largely because of Augustine’s arguments in their favor that the Epistle to the Hebrews, the Second Epistle of Peter and the book of Revelation were accepted into the New Testament canon at the Councils of Hippo (AD 393) and Carthage (397). In this he was following the lead of the Synod of Rome.

Yes, Augustine “clearly argued for the authority of the church.” This can be seen in many of his writings. He is famous for two statements in particular: “I should not believe the bible except by the authority of the Church,” and “Rome has spoken; the matter is settled.” On the other hand (and this is why Protestants sometimes appeal to him), he also speaks of scripture as having authority. What the Protestants fail to see is that Augustine’s appeal to scripture is based on the authority of the Church, which wrote it, assembled it, declared it divinely inspired, used in its liturgy, and demonstrated many of its doctrines from it. A careful reading of Augustine’s works should be sufficient to prove this.
 
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BBAS 64

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Well, what we know is that there was no "Jewish Canon" until after there was a Christian Canon. We know also that the Sadducees only had the Torah as their Canon, so we can say we do not have a common Jewish Canon. We also know that no NT Book would be considered Jewish Canon. So again, why would we look to the Jews for our Canon of Scripture?

Good Day,

Again historically inaccurate:

FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS

Antiquity of the Jews.... AD 78

For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, as the Greeks have, but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine.


Athanasius - AD 367


"I also write, by way of remembrance, of matters with which you are acquainted, influenced by the need and advantage of the Church. In proceeding to make mention of these things, I shall adopt, to commend my undertaking, the pattern of Luke the Evangelist, saying on my own account: 'Forasmuch as some have taken in hand,' to reduce into order for themselves the books termed apocryphal, and to mix them up with the divinely inspired Scripture, concerning which we have been fully persuaded, as they who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the Word, delivered to the fathers; it seemed good to me also, having been urged thereto by true brethren, and having learned from the beginning, to set before you the books included in the Canon, and handed down, and accredited as Divine...There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews...there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit" (Festal Letter 39:2-4, 39:7)




Catholics do not refer to “the rest of the Old Testament” as “apocrypha,” because the books are in fact canonical, not spurious or contested. The word we use is “deuterocanonical.” This refers to the fact that at one time, back in the early centuries, they were in fact contested. However, since the series of Church councils beginning in the fourth century which laid out which books were accepted as Sacred Scripture, they have all been canonical. It was only with the advent of Protestantism, and specifically with Martin Luther’s rejection of these books (and parts of a couple others), that the question has arisen. But within the Catholic Church, there has been no question since the fourth century. Just to make sure, the Council of Trent, in the latter half of the sixteenth century, solemnly defined against the Protestants that the bible does indeed contain all the books listed in the canons of the earlier centuries.
It was St. Jerome who argued against the inclusion of the deuterocanonical books. He had studied Hebrew with some Palestinian rabbis and had been influenced by their viewpoint. Palestinian Jews rejected the larger canon on the ground that the additional works were not originally written in Hebrew, while Jews in the rest of the world used the larger canon. In the end, St. Jerome accepted the ruling of pope Damasus and the Synod of Rome (AD 382) in favor of the larger canon and proceeded to translate them when he was doing the Old Testament series from the Septuagint (Greek) text. (He later did another series from the Hebrew text, which adhered to the shorter canon. But this is because the Greek works were not included in the Hebrew texts he worked with, not because he rejected them.)

Meanwhile, St. Augustine was the champion of the larger canon and heartily endorsed the Septuagint as the basis for translation into other languages, including Latin. Also, it was largely because of Augustine’s arguments in their favor that the Epistle to the Hebrews, the Second Epistle of Peter and the book of Revelation were accepted into the New Testament canon at the Councils of Hippo (AD 393) and Carthage (397). In this he was following the lead of the Synod of Rome.

Yes, Augustine “clearly argued for the authority of the church.” This can be seen in many of his writings. He is famous for two statements in particular: “I should not believe the bible except by the authority of the Church,” and “Rome has spoken; the matter is settled.” On the other hand (and this is why Protestants sometimes appeal to him), he also speaks of scripture as having authority. What the Protestants fail to see is that Augustine’s appeal to scripture is based on the authority of the Church, which wrote it, assembled it, declared it divinely inspired, used in its liturgy, and demonstrated many of its doctrines from it. A careful reading of Augustine’s works should be sufficient to prove this.

I do understand how the church of rome handles these types of issues....thanks for the input.

BTW, I think you are in error about Jerome... the Cardinal is clear about Jeromes view.... Jerome's translation from Greek was for the Book of Judith only you might what to get your hands on the preface.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Root of Jesse

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Good Day,

Again historically inaccurate:

FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS

Antiquity of the Jews.... AD 78

For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, as the Greeks have, but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine.
This says nothing about the OT, which is 66 books in your Bible, 73 in ours?
Athanasius - AD 367


"I also write, by way of remembrance, of matters with which you are acquainted, influenced by the need and advantage of the Church. In proceeding to make mention of these things, I shall adopt, to commend my undertaking, the pattern of Luke the Evangelist, saying on my own account: 'Forasmuch as some have taken in hand,' to reduce into order for themselves the books termed apocryphal, and to mix them up with the divinely inspired Scripture, concerning which we have been fully persuaded, as they who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the Word, delivered to the fathers; it seemed good to me also, having been urged thereto by true brethren, and having learned from the beginning, to set before you the books included in the Canon, and handed down, and accredited as Divine...There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews...there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit" (Festal Letter 39:2-4, 39:7)






I do understand how the church of rome handles these types of issues....thanks for the input.

BTW, I think you are in error about Jerome... the Cardinal is clear about Jeromes view.... Jerome's translation from Greek was for the Book of Judith only you might what to get your hands on the preface.

In Him,

Bill
First, no Church Father is infallible. That charism is reserved uniquely to the pope, in an extraordinary sense and, in an ordinary sense, corporately to all the lawful bishops of the Catholic Church who are in full communion with the pope and are teaching definitively in an ecumenical council. Second, our understanding of doctrine develops. This means that doctrines which may not have been clearly defined sometimes get defined. A classic example of this is the doctrine of the Trinity, which wasn't defined until A.D. 325 at the Council of Nicaea, nearly 300 years after Christ's earthly ministry. In the intervening time, we can find a few Fathers writing before Nicaea who, in good faith, expressed theories about the nature of the Godhead that were rendered inadequate after Nicaea's definition. This doesn't make them heretics. It just means that Michael Jordan misses layups once in awhile. Likewise, the canon of Scripture, though it more or less assumed its present shape — which included the deuterocanonical books — by about A.D. 380, nonetheless wasn't dogmatically defined by the Church for another thousand years. In that thousand years, it was quite on the cards for believers to have some flexibility in how they regarded the canon. And this applies to the handful of Church Fathers and theologians who expressed reservations about the deuterocanon. Their private opinions about the deuterocanon were just that: private opinions.

And finally, this myth begins to disintegrate when you point out that the overwhelming majority of Church Fathers and other early Christian writers regarded the deuterocanonical books as having exactly the same inspired, scriptural status as the other Old Testament books. Just a few examples of this acceptance can be found in the Didache, The Epistle of Barnabas, the Council of Rome, the Council of Hippo, the Third Council of Carthage, the African Code, the Apostolic Constitutions, and the writings of Pope St. Clement I (Epistle to the Corinthians), St. Polycarp of Smyrna, St. Irenaeus of Lyons, St. Hippolytus, St. Cyprian of Carthage, , Pope St. Damasus I, the , St. Augustine, and Pope St. Innocent I.

But last and most interesting of all in this stellar lineup is a certain Father already mentioned: St. Jerome. In his later years St. Jerome did indeed accept the Deuter-ocanonical books of the Bible. In fact, he wound up strenuously defending their status as inspired Scripture, writing, "What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susanna, the Son of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume (ie. canon), proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I wasn't relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they [the Jews] are wont to make against us" (Against Rufinus 11:33 [A.D. 402]). In earlier correspondence with Pope Damasus, Jerome did not call the deuterocanonical books unscriptural, he simply said that Jews he knew did not regard them as canonical. But for himself, he acknowledged the authority of the Church in defining the canon. When Pope Damasus and the Councils of Carthage and Hippo included the deuterocanon in Scripture, that was good enough for St. Jerome. He "followed the judgment of the churches."
 
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tz620q

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Athanasius - AD 367


"I also write, by way of remembrance, of matters with which you are acquainted, influenced by the need and advantage of the Church. In proceeding to make mention of these things, I shall adopt, to commend my undertaking, the pattern of Luke the Evangelist, saying on my own account: 'Forasmuch as some have taken in hand,' to reduce into order for themselves the books termed apocryphal, and to mix them up with the divinely inspired Scripture, concerning which we have been fully persuaded, as they who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the Word, delivered to the fathers; it seemed good to me also, having been urged thereto by true brethren, and having learned from the beginning, to set before you the books included in the Canon, and handed down, and accredited as Divine...There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews...there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit" (Festal Letter 39:2-4, 39:7)

A Festal Letter, like this was used by the Egyptian church to set the day of Easter each year and the honor fell to the Bishop of Alexandria, who was Athanasius in 367 A.D., because of the schools of astrology there. However, Athanasius used the letter to castigate a group of astrologers who as he said in the beginning of what we have left of his letter, CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 39 (Athanasius)

"...1. They have fabricated books which they call books of tables , in which they show stars, to which they give the names of Saints. And therein of a truth they have inflicted on themselves a double reproach: those who have written such books, because they have perfected themselves in a lying and contemptible science; and as to the ignorant and simple, they have led them astray by evil thoughts concerning the right faith established in all truth and upright in the presence of God.

...2. But since we have made mention of heretics as dead, but of ourselves as possessing the Divine Scriptures for salvation; and since I fear lest, as Paul wrote to the Corinthians (2 Corinthians 11:3), some few of the simple should be beguiled from their simplicity and purity, by the subtlety of certain men, and should henceforth read other books— those called apocryphal— led astray by the similarity of their names with the true books; I beseech you to bear patiently, if I also write, by way of remembrance, of matters with which you are acquainted, influenced by the need and advantage of the Church."


So section 1 above is from one fragment and section 2 is from another fragment. It seems from section 1 that some of the astrologers were publishing astrological tables and putting the names of Saints on them to get people to buy them as scripture. If section 2 follows in the same line of thought, then Athanasius is calling these books apocryphal. Later he denotes the OT Canon, including Baruch, which is not in the Protestant Bible. He also separates the deuterocanonical books as good for reading and then says,
"But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being [merely] read; nor is there in any place a mention of apocryphal writings."

So he is actually saying that the Wisdom of Solomon, Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, and Tobit are not apocryphal, since he has taken it upon himself to mention them. Now one could contend that he has set up a two-tiered canon, but not that he has included the deuterocanonical books as apocryphal.
 
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kjw47

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Oh my goodness..... that takes the cake. I must wonder you proof text John and Daniel do you have the original Hebrew, and Greek text and are offering you our translation of those text... is Daniel chiseled onto a rock?

In Him,

Bill


The Holy spirit guides the real teachers of Jesus into all truth at the proper time( When God wills)
 
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prodromos

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I also note we have moved away from the topic of this thread
We should also note that acceptance of belief in the Trinity is a requirement for posting in this part of the forums.
 
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A Festal Letter, like this was used by the Egyptian church to set the day of Easter each year and the honor fell to the Bishop of Alexandria, who was Athanasius in 367 A.D., because of the schools of astrology there. However, Athanasius used the letter to castigate a group of astrologers who as he said in the beginning of what we have left of his letter, CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 39 (Athanasius)

"...1. They have fabricated books which they call books of tables , in which they show stars, to which they give the names of Saints. And therein of a truth they have inflicted on themselves a double reproach: those who have written such books, because they have perfected themselves in a lying and contemptible science; and as to the ignorant and simple, they have led them astray by evil thoughts concerning the right faith established in all truth and upright in the presence of God.

...2. But since we have made mention of heretics as dead, but of ourselves as possessing the Divine Scriptures for salvation; and since I fear lest, as Paul wrote to the Corinthians (2 Corinthians 11:3), some few of the simple should be beguiled from their simplicity and purity, by the subtlety of certain men, and should henceforth read other books— those called apocryphal— led astray by the similarity of their names with the true books; I beseech you to bear patiently, if I also write, by way of remembrance, of matters with which you are acquainted, influenced by the need and advantage of the Church."


So section 1 above is from one fragment and section 2 is from another fragment. It seems from section 1 that some of the astrologers were publishing astrological tables and putting the names of Saints on them to get people to buy them as scripture. If section 2 follows in the same line of thought, then Athanasius is calling these books apocryphal. Later he denotes the OT Canon, including Baruch, which is not in the Protestant Bible. He also separates the deuterocanonical books as good for reading and then says,
"But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being [merely] read; nor is there in any place a mention of apocryphal writings."

So he is actually saying that the Wisdom of Solomon, Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, and Tobit are not apocryphal, since he has taken it upon himself to mention them. Now one could contend that he has set up a two-tiered canon, but not that he has included the deuterocanonical books as apocryphal.

Good day, TZ

I agree... I see the two "tier" canon as a repeating view in history. I understand the canon listed has in the letter includes Baruch. The main reason I listed Athanasius that after Josephus was to underline the historical train of thought and knowledge of 22/24 book canon used by the Jews. There are others that take up thew same kind of verbage Gregory of Nazianzus, John of Damascus, Cyril of Jerusalem and others historically. I use this to show not the infallibility of these men's their lists.. so when I focus on a 22/24 book canon I do so an an historical inquiry. But you would have to admit that those lists are much closer to a non roman church OT canon as defined at Trent.

Bill
 
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tz620q

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Good day, TZ

I agree... I see the two "tier" canon as a repeating view in history. I understand the canon listed has in the letter includes Baruch. The main reason I listed Athanasius that after Josephus was to underline the historical train of thought and knowledge of 22/24 book canon used by the Jews. There are others that take up thew same kind of verbage Gregory of Nazianzus, John of Damascus, Cyril of Jerusalem and others historically. I use this to show not the infallibility of these men's their lists.. so when I focus on a 22/24 book canon I do so an an historical inquiry. But you would have to admit that those lists are much closer to a non roman church OT canon as defined at Trent.

Bill
I have found it advantageous in studying history to not jump around too much; but to get a sense for the pattern of thought of that time that motivated the people to do and write what they did. It is telling that the Codex Vaticanus, which is from the same time period as Athanasius' remarks has the same canon in the same order as Athanasius proclaimed. It is not known whether Athanasius ever viewed the Codex; but it certainly implies that there was at least a shared opinion. I think, though, where I disagree with you is in trying to crystallize the canon with Athanasius or any of the early Church father's lists. While they valued the Scriptures, used them to defend the true faith, and saw the need for a canon, their way of thought is probably foreign to the current "Word of God" sola scriptura way of thinking (a concept with many different meanings). The modern thought tries to invent a church from the Bible, while Athanasius was trying to invent the Bible from the church.
 
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This says nothing about the OT, which is 66 books in your Bible, 73 in ours?
First, no Church Father is infallible. That charism is reserved uniquely to the pope, in an extraordinary sense and, in an ordinary sense, corporately to all the lawful bishops of the Catholic Church who are in full communion with the pope and are teaching definitively in an ecumenical council. Second, our understanding of doctrine develops. This means that doctrines which may not have been clearly defined sometimes get defined. A classic example of this is the doctrine of the Trinity, which wasn't defined until A.D. 325 at the Council of Nicaea, nearly 300 years after Christ's earthly ministry. In the intervening time, we can find a few Fathers writing before Nicaea who, in good faith, expressed theories about the nature of the Godhead that were rendered inadequate after Nicaea's definition. This doesn't make them heretics. It just means that Michael Jordan misses layups once in awhile. Likewise, the canon of Scripture, though it more or less assumed its present shape — which included the deuterocanonical books — by about A.D. 380, nonetheless wasn't dogmatically defined by the Church for another thousand years. In that thousand years, it was quite on the cards for believers to have some flexibility in how they regarded the canon. And this applies to the handful of Church Fathers and theologians who expressed reservations about the deuterocanon. Their private opinions about the deuterocanon were just that: private opinions.

And finally, this myth begins to disintegrate when you point out that the overwhelming majority of Church Fathers and other early Christian writers regarded the deuterocanonical books as having exactly the same inspired, scriptural status as the other Old Testament books. Just a few examples of this acceptance can be found in the Didache, The Epistle of Barnabas, the Council of Rome, the Council of Hippo, the Third Council of Carthage, the African Code, the Apostolic Constitutions, and the writings of Pope St. Clement I (Epistle to the Corinthians), St. Polycarp of Smyrna, St. Irenaeus of Lyons, St. Hippolytus, St. Cyprian of Carthage, , Pope St. Damasus I, the , St. Augustine, and Pope St. Innocent I.

But last and most interesting of all in this stellar lineup is a certain Father already mentioned: St. Jerome. In his later years St. Jerome did indeed accept the Deuter-ocanonical books of the Bible. In fact, he wound up strenuously defending their status as inspired Scripture, writing, "What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susanna, the Son of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume (ie. canon), proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I wasn't relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they [the Jews] are wont to make against us" (Against Rufinus 11:33 [A.D. 402]). In earlier correspondence with Pope Damasus, Jerome did not call the deuterocanonical books unscriptural, he simply said that Jews he knew did not regard them as canonical. But for himself, he acknowledged the authority of the Church in defining the canon. When Pope Damasus and the Councils of Carthage and Hippo included the deuterocanon in Scripture, that was good enough for St. Jerome. He "followed the judgment of the churches."

Good Day,

The whole quote is really needed from (Against Rufinus) to fully understand what is being addressed.

33. In reference to Daniel my answer will be that I did not say that he was not a prophet; on the contrary, I confessed in the very beginning of the Preface that he was a prophet. But I wished to show what was the opinion upheld by the Jews; and what were the arguments on which they relied for its proof. I also told the reader that the version read in the Christian churches was not that of the Septuagint translators but that of Theodotion. It is true, I said that the Septuagint version was in this book very different from the original, and that it was condemned by the right judgment of the churches of Christ; but the fault was not mine who only stated the fact, but that of those who read the version. We have four versions to choose from: those of Aquila, Symmachus, the Seventy, and Theodotion. The churches choose to read Daniel in the version of Theodotion. What sin have I committed in following the judgment of the churches? But when I repeat what the Jews say against the Story of Susanna and the Hymn of the Three Children, and the fables of Bel and the Dragon, which are not contained in the Hebrew Bible, the man who makes this a charge against me proves himself to be a fool and a slanderer; for I explained not what I thought but what they commonly say against us. I did not reply to their opinion in the Preface, because I was studying brevity, and feared that I should seem to be writing not a Preface but a book. I said therefore, As to which this is not the time to enter into discussion. Otherwise from the fact that I stated that Porphyry had said many things against this prophet, and called, as witnesses of this, Methodius, Eusebius, and Apollinarius, who have replied to his folly in many thousand lines, it will be in his power to accuse me for not having written in my Preface against the books of Porphyry. If there is any one who pays attention to silly things like this, I must tell him loudly and freely that no one is compelled to read what he does not want; that I wrote for those who asked me, not for those who would scorn me, for the grateful not the carping, for the earnest not the indifferent. Still, I wonder that a man should read the version of Theodotion the heretic and judaizer, and should scorn that of a Christian, simple and sinful though he may be.

Again (no disrespect) I find the Cardinals understanding of Jerome around this issue to be more historical and a bit more reliable then yours. Why is it you disagree with him?

Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, as is plain from the Prologus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage.

Can you tell me why he was wrong... historically I find no one correcting him nor even challenging him..


In Him,

Bill
 
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Good Day,
Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, as is plain from the Prologus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage.

Can you tell me why he was wrong... historically I find no one correcting him nor even challenging him..


In Him,

Bill
Bill,
Certainly read from Luther's prospective, Cardinal Cajetan's words seem prophetic; but Cajetan realized after writing this that the old way of relying on Jerome would not work against Luther and began studying the Scriptures himself to help in refuting Luther's positions. So I think his thought evolved over time and we shouldn't think that this early quote was an embodiment of his life work.

You know we have been talking about the Catholic Canon a lot; but canonical development within the Catholic Church should surprise noone. For we base our beliefs on a three legged approach of Scriptures, Tradition, and Magisterium. What is surprising to me is if I asked for a Protestant Canon and the reasoning behind it, I would get a panoply of different answers from a Christian movement that is supposedly based solely on Scripture for their rule of faith.
 
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I have found it advantageous in studying history to not jump around too much; but to get a sense for the pattern of thought of that time that motivated the people to do and write what they did. It is telling that the Codex Vaticanus, which is from the same time period as Athanasius' remarks has the same canon in the same order as Athanasius proclaimed. It is not known whether Athanasius ever viewed the Codex; but it certainly implies that there was at least a shared opinion. I think, though, where I disagree with you is in trying to crystallize the canon with Athanasius or any of the early Church father's lists. While they valued the Scriptures, used them to defend the true faith, and saw the need for a canon, their way of thought is probably foreign to the current "Word of God" sola scriptura way of thinking (a concept with many different meanings). The modern thought tries to invent a church from the Bible, while Athanasius was trying to invent the Bible from the church.


Good Day,

Not that this has any thing to do with the historic doctrine of Sola Scripture.. I am more than ready to dend that much like you are ready to defend your understanding of churches teachings. For sure it has nothing to do with defining a canon...

I think he understood much like me ( and you I hope) that the word was delivered by God, and received by the church.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Bill,
Certainly read from Luther's prospective, Cardinal Cajetan's words seem prophetic; but Cajetan realized after writing this that the old way of relying on Jerome would not work against Luther and began studying the Scriptures himself to help in refuting Luther's positions. So I think his thought evolved over time and we shouldn't think that this early quote was an embodiment of his life work.

You know we have been talking about the Catholic Canon a lot; but canonical development within the Catholic Church should surprise noone. For we base our beliefs on a three legged approach of Scriptures, Tradition, and Magisterium. What is surprising to me is if I asked for a Protestant Canon and the reasoning behind it, I would get a panoply of different answers from a Christian movement that is supposedly based solely on Scripture for their rule of faith.

So you think... are you really hoping that is true?? Do you have any thing for the premise you present. You do know that was used in a gloss produced under the pope of the time.

Start the thread I am all over it... maybe one for the NT I will start.

In Him,

Bill
 
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