Your actually agreeing with me here
So who is without the gates that can enter within the gates and have a right to the tree of life?
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Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
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Your actually agreeing with me here
So who is without the gates that can enter within the gates and have a right to the tree of life?
did you ever think the reason Jesus sent that message to the churches was because they were and still are telling people that they cannot enter within the gates and take of the water of life freely?
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sorry but this happens AFTER all judgment is past and the new Jerusalem has been established.
No one can enter into the city without going through the gates. the gates are a representation of judgment and judgment MUST BEGIN with the HOUSE of GOD.
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and just who do you think those who are without the gates are if not those who are still being held in bondage by the god of this world?
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Marvin Knox
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Wow - a six pack of posts. How do I rate? Hope I didn't miss any.
I see nowhere that it says Christians will not be able to travel outside the gates of the city on the new earth. If the nations and the kings of the earth can come visit us - why couldn't we visit with them? I'd like to thinks so - I'm a bit of a country boy at heart.
Whosoever will is the cry of all churches I am aware of.
Within the message are descriptions of things ant were going to happen in the future.
But the message was not sent after they ocured but before. You are seeing what you want to see and it's flawed logic. Don't go beyond what logically follows from the text.
Not much in this world would make me happier than to find out that everyone will be saved in the end.
But I don't see it anywhere in the scriptures and the scriptures you are putting forth here do not demand what you say they do.
It seems that your inability to think logically and your corresponding tendency to come to unwarranted conclusions about what a text demands is causing you to see things which simply are not there. As a result - your preaching a doctrine which is not taught in the scriptures.
"Outside the gates" would include Hell would it not?
I see nowhere that it says Christians will not be able to travel outside the gates of the city on the new earth. If the nations and the kings of the earth can come visit us - why couldn't we visit with them? I'd like to thinks so - I'm a bit of a country boy at heart.
The scripture answered you and so did I (with the same answer).
The ones who do wrong (including those in Hell) and those who do right.
I know of no one who teaches that. That goes for "churches" as diverse as Roman Catholics and hyper Calvinists.
Whosoever will is the cry of all churches I am aware of.
No - it happened long before all judgment (at least a couple of thousand years before as a matter of fact). The message was sent to the churches around 90 A.D. as most folks believe.
Within the message are descriptions of things ant were going to happen in the future.
But the message was not sent after they ocured but before. You are seeing what you want to see and it's flawed logic. Don't go beyond what logically follows from the text.
If we are talking about the city on the new earth - it's the many people making up the nations on the new earth, the folks in Hell, and any residents of the city who happen to be out for a stroll in the country.
Not much in this world would make me happier than to find out that everyone will be saved in the end.
But I don't see it anywhere in the scriptures and the scriptures you are putting forth here do not demand what you say they do.
It seems that your inability to think logically and your corresponding tendency to come to unwarranted conclusions about what a text demands is causing you to see things which simply are not there. As a result - your preaching a doctrine which is not taught in the scriptures.
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nah I just can't figure out how to work the quote button properly.
"Outside the gates" would include Hell would it not?
Yes, so if it includes those in hell why can't they be saved?
I see nowhere that it says Christians will not be able to travel outside the gates of the city on the new earth. If the nations and the kings of the earth can come visit us - why couldn't we visit with them? I'd like to thinks so - I'm a bit of a country boy at heart.
Yet nothing in those scriptures says that does it. it only says the idolaters etc are without the gate.
The scripture answered you and so did I (with the same answer).
The ones who do wrong (including those in Hell) and those who do right.
So if the ones in hell who do right and obey His commandments can enter the city via the gates why do you say they cannot be saved?
I know of no one who teaches that. That goes for "churches" as diverse as Roman Catholics and hyper Calvinists.
Well I do my own studying and don't rely on any man made doctrines. And why would any church look at it that way? after all it was written against the church.
Whosoever will is the cry of all churches I am aware of.
Yup, but only for this life. We are talking about the next.
No - it happened long before all judgment (at least a couple of thousand years before as a matter of fact). The message was sent to the churches around 90 A.D. as most folks believe.
Within the message are descriptions of things ant were going to happen in the future.
But the message was not sent after they ocured but before. You are seeing what you want to see and it's flawed logic. Don't go beyond what logically follows from the text.
actually it is the same message that has been ongoing from the earliest time. The prophets of old called it the restitution of all things.
If we are talking about the city on the new earth - it's the many people making up the nations on the new earth, the folks in Hell, and any residents of the city who happen to be out for a stroll in the country.
Again if those in hell can enter the city why do you say they are not or cannot be saved?
Not much in this world would make me happier than to find out that everyone will be saved in the end.
But I don't see it anywhere in the scriptures and the scriptures you are putting forth here do not demand what you say they do.
Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe. This command and teach.
It seems that your inability to think logically and your corresponding tendency to come to unwarranted conclusions about what a text demands is causing you to see things which simply are not there. As a result - your preaching a doctrine which is not taught in the scriptures.
Actually it is my doctrine that is plainly spoken of in scripture. read 1Tim4 and you will see Paul telling tim to beware of the doctrine of demons, then telling tim exactly what we are commanded to teach, which is Jesus Christ IS the saviour of ALL MEN. Any other doctrine then that is "another' doctrine.
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Pneuma,
Anything you want to quote of another person's comments, put it inbetween one of these with brackets at both ends
QUOTE="Pneuma3, post: 73118686, member: 145732"
and one of these with brackets at both ends
/QUOTE
which is how i quoted you above
a bracket = ] [
BTW, I don't know how to make posts the way you do, with colored text.
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Marvin Knox
Senior Veteran
Highlight a statement in one of my posts by stroking over it with the left button of the mouse held down. That's what I did with the statement above from your post. Lift your finger from the left button and the statement will be highlighted.
Under it will appear a choice to "quote" the highlighted statement. Click the quote box.
Do the same for every statement you want to respond to in my post.
In the reply box at the bottom of the page there will appear a box which says "insert quotes". Click that and all quotes will appear in the reply box.
Reply with what you have to say under each quote separately. Hit the "post reply" button to send your post. It will include the quotes and your replies to them.
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Marvin Knox
Senior Veteran
Pneuma3 -
Follow this logic lesson to see where you are going wrong.
There are baseball games in Yankee stadium. There are also free hotdogs for those attending.
Those who pay the price enter, see a game and perhaps eat a hotdog.
Outside are the poor, the cheapskates, and the Mets fans.
Now - logically one can deduce that the rich people and the Yankee fans were once outside the stadium just like the others.
What is not a logical deduction is that all of the poor and the cheapskates will be allowed to enter the stadium either this Saturday or any time in the future.
Your logic is simply flawed.
Like I said - I hope you're right and everyone will be saved.
Perhaps and arguably there are some scriptures you can use in a logical manner to support the concept of universal salvation.
But this particular set of scriptures is not among them.
Follow this logic lesson to see where you are going wrong.
There are baseball games in Yankee stadium. There are also free hotdogs for those attending.
Those who pay the price enter, see a game and perhaps eat a hotdog.
Outside are the poor, the cheapskates, and the Mets fans.
Now - logically one can deduce that the rich people and the Yankee fans were once outside the stadium just like the others.
What is not a logical deduction is that all of the poor and the cheapskates will be allowed to enter the stadium either this Saturday or any time in the future.
Your logic is simply flawed.
Like I said - I hope you're right and everyone will be saved.
Perhaps and arguably there are some scriptures you can use in a logical manner to support the concept of universal salvation.
But this particular set of scriptures is not among them.
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Yet what if the king grants the poor access, after all that is the only way anyone can get in.
Glad to here that you have hope that all will be saved. Have you checked out finelinnens restitution of all things thread?
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What evidence is there that that fragment belongs to Clement of Alexandria? This researcher thinks there may have been a mix-up "as this is actually related to pseudo-Clement (of Rome!), Homily11.11":
https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/342ux2/part_8_αἰώνιος_aiōnios_in_jewish_and_christian/
The Catholic Encyclopedia considers Clement of Alexandria a universalist:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm
"CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (150-220 A.D.) likewise has sounded these words: “The Lord, [says John in his First Epistle,] is a propitiation, ‘not for our sins only,’ that is, of the faithful, ‘but also for the whole world.’ Therefore He indeed saves all universally; but some as converted by punishments, others by voluntary submission, thus obtaining the honour and dignity, that ‘to Him every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth,’ that is [to say,] angels, and men, and souls who departed this life before His coming into the world." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/the-fate-of-the-lost-a-fourth-view/3279
Compare:
The Sacred Writings of Clement of Alexandria By Clement of Alexandria:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=j5JHK6aOF38C&pg=PT830&lpg=PT830&dq=He,+indeed,+saves+all;+but+some+He+saves,+converting+them+by+punishments&source=bl&ots=RfOjZ-0MTd&sig=E_84Rp91s2HaPQYV2rZZ0gsorOM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjrPnIzJvdAhVIFjQIHdIqAe8Q6AEwBnoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=He, indeed, saves all; but some He saves, converting them by punishments&f=false
"God does not take vengeance, which is the requital of evil for evil, but chastises for the benefit of the chastised (Stromata 7.16)
"To Him is placed in subjection all the host of angels and gods; He, the paternal Word, exhibiting a the holy administration for Him who put [all] in subjection to Him.
"Wherefore also all men are His; some through knowledge, and others not yet so; and some as friends, some as faithful servants, some as servants merely. ....
"And how is He Saviour and Lord, if not the Saviour and Lord of all? But He is the Saviour of those who have believed, because of their wishing to know; and the Lord of those who have not believed, till, being enabled to confess him, they obtain the peculiar and appropriate boon which comes by Him. (Stromata 7.2)
https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianU...x2cu/the_universalists_clement_of_alexandria/
“For all things are ordered both universally and in particular by the Lord of the universe, with a view to the salvation of the universe. But needful corrections, by the goodness of the great, overseeing judge, through the attendant angels, through various prior judgments, through the final judgment, compel even those who have become more callous to repent.”
“So he saves all; but some he converts by penalties, others who follow him of their own will, and in accordance with the worthiness of his honor, that every knee may be bent to him of celestial, terrestrial and infernal things (Phil. 2:10), that is angels, men, and souls who before his advent migrated from this mortal life.”
“For there are partial corrections (padeiai) which are called chastisements (kolasis), which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence. But God does not punish (timoria) for punishment (timoria) is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively and individually.” (Strom, VII, ii; Pedag. I, 8; on I John ii, 2)
...
”He is in no respect whatever the ’cause of evil. For all things are arranged with a view to the salvation of the universe by the Lord of the universe, both generally and particularly. It is then the function of the righteousness of salvation to improve everything as far as practicable. For even minor matters are arranged with a view to the salvation of that which is better, and for an abode suitable for people’s character. Now everything that is virtuous changes for the better; having as the proper cause of change the free choice of knowledge, which the soul has in its own power. But necessary corrections, through the goodness of the great overseeing Judge, both by the attendant angels, and by various acts of anticipative judgment, and by the perfect judgment, compel egregious sinners to repent.” (Str. VII 12.2-5)
“To Him is placed in subjection all the host of angels and gods; He, the paternal Word, exhibiting a the holy administration for Him who put [all] in subjection to Him. Wherefore also all men are His; some through knowledge, and others not yet so; and some as friends, some as faithful servants, some as servants merely.” (Str. VII)
“either the Lord does not care for all men; and this is the case either because He is unable (which is not to be thought, for it would be a proof of weakness), or because He is unwilling, which is not the attribute of a good being. And He who for our sakes assumed flesh capable of suffering, is far from being luxuriously indolent. Or He does care for all, which is befitting for Him who has become Lord of all. For He is Saviour; not [the Saviour] of some, and of others not. But in proportion to the adaptation possessed by each, He has dispensed His beneficence both to Greeks and Barbarians, even to those of them that were predestinated, and in due time called, the faithful and elect. Nor can He who called all equally, and assigned special honours to those who have believed in a specially excellent way, ever envy any. Nor can He who is the Lord of all, and serves above all the will of the good and almighty Father, ever be hindered by another. But neither does envy touch the Lord, who without beginning was impassible; nor are the things of men such as to be envied by the Lord. But it is another, he whom passion hath touched, who envies. And it cannot be said that it is from ignorance that the Lord is not willing to save humanity, because He knows not how each one is to be cared for. For ignorance applies not to the God who, before the foundation of the world, was the counsellor of the Father. For He was the Wisdom “in which” the Sovereign God “delighted.” For the Son is the power of God, as being the Father’s most ancient Word before the production of all things, and His Wisdom. He is then properly called the Teacher of the beings formed by Him. Nor does He ever abandon care for men, by being drawn aside from pleasure, who, having assumed flesh, which by nature is susceptible of suffering, trained it to the condition of impassibility. And how is He Saviour and Lord, if not the Saviour and Lord of all?” (Str. VII)
”God’s punishments are saving and disciplinary, leading to conversion, and choosing rather the repentance than the death of a sinner” (Str. VI)
“But punishment does not avail to him who has sinned, to undo his sin, but that he may sin no more, and that no one else fall into the like. Therefore the good God corrects for these three causes: First, that he who is corrected may become better than his former self; then that those who are capable of being saved by examples may be driven back, being admonished; and thirdly, that he who is injured may not be readily despised, and be apt to receive injury. And there are two methods of correction—the instructive and the punitive, which we have called the disciplinary. It ought to be known, then, that those who fall into sin after baptism are those who are subjected to discipline; for the deeds done before are remitted, and those done after are purged.” (Str. IV)
http://www.mercyuponall.org/2014/02...-and-lord-if-not-the-saviour-and-lord-of-all/
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The Greek word mistranslated "eternal" is αἰωνίου, meaning "eonian". That αἰωνίου often refers in context to a finite duration in Koine Greek is evident from these examples:
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/two-questions.8069145/page-4#post-72837159
Therefore your Barnabas "proof text" does not oppose biblical universalism in the Epistle of Barnabas. Moreover, Barnabas states:
"when iniquity is no more and all things have been made new by the Lord"
here:
Barnabas 15:7
But if after all then and not till then shall we truly rest and
hallow it, when we shall ourselves be able to do so after being
justified and receiving the promise, when iniquity is no more and all
things have been made new by the Lord, we shall be able to hallow it
then, because we ourselves shall have been hallowed first.
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Could Clement of Rome (d. 99/100 AD) have been a persuaded or hopeful universalist? One source alleges that he "is considered to be the first Apostolic Father of the Church...Clement's only genuine extant writing is his letter to the church at Corinth (1 Clement)..." I've seen nothing in it that opposes biblical universalism.
Another very early writing (70-135 AD) is The Epistle of Barnabas. Could the author(s) of this work have been a persuaded universalist? Lightfoot's translation has it saying: "...when iniquity is no more and all things have been made new by the Lord..." (15:7). Similarly, Lake's translation is "when there is no more sin". OTOH, Roberts' translation has "wickedness" instead of "iniquity" or "sin": "wickedness no longer existing" (15:7). And God "giving rest to all things" (15:8) in the context of the Sabbath rest. The version in the "Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1" has "wickedness" & notes that "Cod. Sin." renders it "iniquity" (p.128, ed. Philip Schaff, etc). It doesn't say sinners or the wicked will cease to exist, but sin or wickedness will cease to be.
"McC’s statement, “there are no unambiguous cases of universalist teaching prior to Origen” (p. 823), should also be at least nuanced, in light of Bardaisan, Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter’s Rainer Fragment, parts of the Sibylline Oracles, and arguably of the NT, especially Paul’s letters.
https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2016/...of-apokatastasis-the-reviews-start-coming-in/
Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)
Scholars directory, with list of publications:
http://www.isns.us/directory/europe/ramelliilaria.htm
Another very early writing (70-135 AD) is The Epistle of Barnabas. Could the author(s) of this work have been a persuaded universalist? Lightfoot's translation has it saying: "...when iniquity is no more and all things have been made new by the Lord..." (15:7). Similarly, Lake's translation is "when there is no more sin". OTOH, Roberts' translation has "wickedness" instead of "iniquity" or "sin": "wickedness no longer existing" (15:7). And God "giving rest to all things" (15:8) in the context of the Sabbath rest. The version in the "Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1" has "wickedness" & notes that "Cod. Sin." renders it "iniquity" (p.128, ed. Philip Schaff, etc). It doesn't say sinners or the wicked will cease to exist, but sin or wickedness will cease to be.
"McC’s statement, “there are no unambiguous cases of universalist teaching prior to Origen” (p. 823), should also be at least nuanced, in light of Bardaisan, Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter’s Rainer Fragment, parts of the Sibylline Oracles, and arguably of the NT, especially Paul’s letters.
https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2016/...of-apokatastasis-the-reviews-start-coming-in/
Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)
Scholars directory, with list of publications:
http://www.isns.us/directory/europe/ramelliilaria.htm
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No church creed until around at least about 500 A.D. condemned either the belief in eventual universalism or the ultimate salvation of all fallen angelic beings. Origen, Gregory Nyssa, Jerome, St Isaac the Syrian & other church fathers were among those who proclaimed the final universal reconciliation of all created beings.Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Jerome, Diodorus of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia & the Ambrosiaster writing are included, with qualifications, by the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Apocatastasis, which states the doctrine was not formally condemned until 543 AD. “The doctrine was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church.” Thereafter followed the dark ages of the next 1000-1400 years, including Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of opposers & their writings, denial of freedoms such as freedom of religion & freedom of speech. Do we really want to follow the “Christian traditions” that bore that fruit?
Apocatastasis: “A name given in the history of theology to the doctrine which teaches that a time will come when all free creatures will share in the grace of salvation; in a special way, the devils and lost souls.” newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm
"The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origen, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible. — Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11."
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Here we have an Epistle of Barnabas' (70-135 AD) remark in the context of an eschatological 8th day Sabbath rest, when wickedness ceases to exist, all things are made new & God will be "giving rest to all things":
15:7-8 Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves. Further, He says to them, "Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure." Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. The Epistle of Barnabas (translation Roberts-Donaldson)
The Epistle of Barnabas there speaks of wickedness, not the wicked, ceasing to exist.
That epistle was regarded quite highly in the early church, especially in Alexandria by ClementA & Origen. It seems not to have been known in other regions till quite a bit later & scholars tend to see Egypt as its place of origin. All this adds weight to the view that it supports universalism.
Did you forget to finish your thought? As it stands that sentence doesn't say anything.
Furthermore, you quoted a mere 7 "church fathers", which is not "most" of them.
Moreover, why quote "church fathers" when you consider them irrelevant & uninspired:
Additionally, quoting English mistranslations of Greek (Latin etc) words that are a point of debate in the whole universalism vs endless torturism discussion does not prove that the church fathers you quoted mis-translations of were opposed to universalism. As Patristic scholar Illaria Ramelli said:
"Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them...an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation. Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822)." (Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)
Scholars directory, with list of publications:
Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory
Nothing there affirms endless punishment or denies universal salvation.
This re Clement of Rome (d. ca 99 AD) is interesting:
"It might be worth noting that during the 4th century spat over universal salvation between the Latin super-Fathers Jerome and Rufinius, Ruf used to remind Jerome that they both still acknowledged Clement of Rome (2nd or 3rd pope) was a Christian universalist. It’s hard to say whether they’re doing so thanks to some spurious epistles from him, or whether it was from writing still extant in their day." The Early Church Father issue
as well as:
"In the Ethiopic rescension of chapter 14 (found in the Ethiopic editions of the Pseudo-Clementines, specifically The Second Coming of Christ and the Resurrection of the Dead), Jesus and Peter discuss the final salvation of sinners after a period of torments. Jesus obesrves (140ra) that sinners will not repent if the threat of eternal damnation is removed. But God and Christ will have compassion for all their creatures (140rb) and Jesus will destroy the devil and punish sinners (140vb-141vb). But he adds to Peter, “You will have no more mercy on sinners than I do, for I was crucified because of them, in order to obtain mercy for them from my Father.” The Lord will therefore give each of them “life, glory, and kingdom without end”, since Jesus will interceded for them. But this outcome must not be made known, to avoid an upsurge in sin (141vb-142vb). Peter reports this dialogue of his to Clement (of Rome, 2nd or 3rd Roman pope), recommending secrecy in turn, since the doctrine might foment sin in immature people."Does "Apocalypse of Peter" show UR in the Early Church?
Nothing there supports endless punishment, whether or torments or annihilation. So it is perfectly in harmony with universalism.
Nothing there supports endless punishment, whether or torments or annihilation. So it is perfectly in harmony with universalism. The "remorse" spoken of may be ungodly sorrow like that sorrow a criminal experiences when caught & punished, not the "godly remorse" that worketh - repentance - that Paul refers to:
2 Cor.7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. 10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Therefore, in light of the following, Clement of Alexandria, like his pupil Oregon, should be considered a universalist.
"CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (150-220 A.D.) likewise has sounded these words: “The Lord, [says John in his First Epistle,] is a propitiation, ‘not for our sins only,’ that is, of the faithful, ‘but also for the whole world.’ Therefore He indeed saves all; but some as converted by punishments, others by voluntary submission, thus obtaining the honour and dignity, that ‘to Him every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth,’ that is [to say,] angels, and men, and souls who departed this life before His coming into the world."
That quote is "...from a fragment of Clement's lost work Hypotyposeis preserved in Latin in the later writer Cassiodorus (ca 485- ca 585)...This passage is quite interesting, since Origen and Origen's followers (and many later universalists) often cited the teaching of Philippians 2" as "implying universal salvation by Christ" (The Devil's Redemption: A New History and Interpretation of Christian Universalism – June 5, 2018, by Michael J. McClymond, p.242-243).
The Sacred Writings of Clement of Alexandria By Clement of Alexandria:
The Sacred Writings of Clement of Alexandria
"God does not take vengeance, which is the requital of evil for evil, but chastises for the benefit of the chastised (Stromata 7.16)
"To Him is placed in subjection all the host of angels and gods; He, the paternal Word, exhibiting a the holy administration for Him who put [all] in subjection to Him.
"Wherefore also all men are His; some through knowledge, and others not yet so; and some as friends, some as faithful servants, some as servants merely. ....
"And how is He Saviour and Lord, if not the Saviour and Lord of all? But He is the Saviour of those who have believed, because of their wishing to know; and the Lord of those who have not believed, till, being enabled to confess him, they obtain the peculiar and appropriate boon which comes by Him. (Stromata 7.2)
The Universalists: Clement of Alexandria : ChristianUniversalism
“For all things are ordered both universally and in particular by the Lord of the universe, with a view to the salvation of the universe. But needful corrections, by the goodness of the great, overseeing judge, through the attendant angels, through various prior judgments, through the final judgment, compel even those who have become more callous to repent.”
“So he saves all; but some he converts by penalties, others who follow him of their own will, and in accordance with the worthiness of his honor, that every knee may be bent to him of celestial, terrestrial and infernal things (Phil. 2:10), that is angels, men, and souls who before his advent migrated from this mortal life.”
“For there are partial corrections (padeiai) which are called chastisements (kolasis), which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence. But God does not punish (timoria) for punishment (timoria) is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively and individually.” (Strom, VII, ii; Pedag. I, 8; on I John ii, 2)
...
Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:
"...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."
"Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."
"As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).
https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab.../©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
Universalism...First 500 Years
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Clement of Rome (d. 99 AD)
1 Clem 7:4 Let us fix our eyes on the blood of Christ and understand how precious it is unto His Father, because being shed for our salvation it won for the whole world the grace of repentance.
1 Clem 19:2b and let us look steadfastly unto the Father and Maker of the whole world, and cleave unto His splendid and excellent gifts of peace and benefits.
1 Clem 19:3 Let us behold Him in our mind, and let us look with the eyes of our soul unto His long-suffering will. Let us note how free from anger He is towards all His creatures.
1 Clem 27:2 He that commanded not to lie, much more shall He Himself not lie: for nothing is impossible with God save to lie.
1 Clem 29:3 And in another place He saith, Behold, the Lord taketh for Himself a nation out of the midst of the nations, as a man taketh the first fruits of his threshing floor; and the holy of holies shall come forth from that nation.
1 Clem 36:4 but of His Son the Master said thus, Thou art My Son, I this day have begotten thee. Ask of Me, and I will give Thee the Gentiles for Thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Thy possession.
1 Clem 52:1 The Master, brethren, hath need of nothing at all. He desireth not anything of any man, save to confess unto Him.
1 Clem 53:4 And Moses said; Nay, not so, Lord Forgive this people their sin, or blot me also out of the book of the living.
1 Clem 53:5 O mighty love! O unsurpassable perfection! The servant is bold with his Master; he asketh forgiveness for the multitude, or he demandeth that himself also be blotted out with them.
1 Clem 54:1 Who therefore is noble among you? Who is compassionate? Who is fulfilled with love?
1 Clem 56:1 Therefore let us also make intercession for them that are in any transgression, that forbearance and humility may be given them, to the end that they may yield not unto us, but unto the will of God. For so shall the compassionate remembrance of them with God and the saints be fruitful unto them, and perfect.
1 Clem 59:4 We beseech Thee, Lord and Master, to be our help and succor. Save those among us who are in tribulation; have mercy on the lowly; lift up the fallen; show Thyself unto the needy; heal the ungodly; convert the wanderers of Thy people; feed the hungry; release our prisoners; raise up the weak; comfort the fainthearted. Let all the Gentiles know that Thou art the God alone, and Jesus Christ is Thy Son, and we are Thy people and the sheep of Thy pasture.
1 Clem 7:4 Let us fix our eyes on the blood of Christ and understand how precious it is unto His Father, because being shed for our salvation it won for the whole world the grace of repentance.
1 Clem 19:2b and let us look steadfastly unto the Father and Maker of the whole world, and cleave unto His splendid and excellent gifts of peace and benefits.
1 Clem 19:3 Let us behold Him in our mind, and let us look with the eyes of our soul unto His long-suffering will. Let us note how free from anger He is towards all His creatures.
1 Clem 27:2 He that commanded not to lie, much more shall He Himself not lie: for nothing is impossible with God save to lie.
1 Clem 29:3 And in another place He saith, Behold, the Lord taketh for Himself a nation out of the midst of the nations, as a man taketh the first fruits of his threshing floor; and the holy of holies shall come forth from that nation.
1 Clem 36:4 but of His Son the Master said thus, Thou art My Son, I this day have begotten thee. Ask of Me, and I will give Thee the Gentiles for Thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Thy possession.
1 Clem 52:1 The Master, brethren, hath need of nothing at all. He desireth not anything of any man, save to confess unto Him.
1 Clem 53:4 And Moses said; Nay, not so, Lord Forgive this people their sin, or blot me also out of the book of the living.
1 Clem 53:5 O mighty love! O unsurpassable perfection! The servant is bold with his Master; he asketh forgiveness for the multitude, or he demandeth that himself also be blotted out with them.
1 Clem 54:1 Who therefore is noble among you? Who is compassionate? Who is fulfilled with love?
1 Clem 56:1 Therefore let us also make intercession for them that are in any transgression, that forbearance and humility may be given them, to the end that they may yield not unto us, but unto the will of God. For so shall the compassionate remembrance of them with God and the saints be fruitful unto them, and perfect.
1 Clem 59:4 We beseech Thee, Lord and Master, to be our help and succor. Save those among us who are in tribulation; have mercy on the lowly; lift up the fallen; show Thyself unto the needy; heal the ungodly; convert the wanderers of Thy people; feed the hungry; release our prisoners; raise up the weak; comfort the fainthearted. Let all the Gentiles know that Thou art the God alone, and Jesus Christ is Thy Son, and we are Thy people and the sheep of Thy pasture.
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Logical fallacy. argument from silence. That "God's love" might not have "an expiration date" does not mean anything unless you can provide scriptural evidence where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, states, unequivocally, that they will save everyone after death.Clement said:
Out-of-context proof text. Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context. Does Isa 26:9 say that all mankind will learn righteousness?Clem said:
Isaiah 26:9-11
(9) With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
(10) Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
(11) LORD, when thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: but they shall see, and be ashamed for their envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them.[/quote]
Vs. 10 says they will not learn righteousness, will deal unjustly, will not behold the majesty of the LORD, will be ashamed and will be destroyed.
(9) With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
(10) Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
(11) LORD, when thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: but they shall see, and be ashamed for their envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them.[/quote]
Vs. 10 says they will not learn righteousness, will deal unjustly, will not behold the majesty of the LORD, will be ashamed and will be destroyed.
Another out-of-context proof text. That a word can mean "correction" does not mean anything unless you can provide textual or lexical evidence that it must mean "correction" in this verse.Clem said:
2 Peter 2:9-12
(9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
(10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
(11) Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
(12) But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
This passage does not say that the unjust, vs. 9, will be "corrected" on the day of judgement. It does in fact say they will be "taken and destroyed...and shall utterly perish in their own corruption"(9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
(10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
(11) Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
(12) But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
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A large wall of copy/pasted text, second hand, quotes of second hand quotes. None of this specifically addresses or refutes anything in any of my posts. Although you demand full exegesis of the original languages you do not provide any exegesis yourself because you do not have the language skills to do so. You blow off all my quotes from the ECF with "Nothing there supports endless punishment, whether or torments or annihilation. So it is perfectly in harmony with universalism." without reading or understanding what I posted.
.....Second hand quotes of some supposed scholar saying "This ECF said this, that ECF said that" are meaningless without clear identification of the primary source.
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