Church Fathers on "which is perfect has come"

Daniel Marsh

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Church Fathers on "which is perfect has come"



" These very words of Paul's, if one can but understand them in the full power of their meaning, will only secure entire credit to the statements made by me. For in that first Epistle to the Corinthians, Paul speaks in the following terms of the perfection that is to come: Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be destroyed: for we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part shall be done away. Observe now what virtue that which is perfect possesses in itself, and of what order that perfection is. And let this man, then, tell us what prophecy of the Jews or Hebrews he has done away with; or what tongues he has caused to cease, whether of the Greeks or of others who worship idols; or what alien dogma she has destroyed, whether of a Valentinian, or a Marcion, or a Tatian, or a Sabellius, or any others of those who have constructed for themselves their peculiar systems of knowledge. Let him tell us which of all these he has already done away with, or when he is yet to do away with any one of them, in this character of the perfect one. Perchance he seeks some sort of truce — does he? But not thus inconsiderable, not thus obscure and ignoble, will be the manner of the advent of Him who is the truly perfect one, that is to say, our Lord Jesus Christ. Nay, but as a king, when he draws near to his city, does first of all send on before him his life-guardsmen, his ensigns and standards and banners, his generals and chiefs and prefects, and then immediately all objects are roused and excited in different fashions, while some become inspired with terror and others with exultation at the prospect of the king'sadvent; so also my Lord Jesus Christ, who is the truly perfect one, at His coming will first send on before Him His glory, and the consecrated heralds of an unstained and untainted kingdom: and then the universal creation will be moved and perturbed, uttering prayers and supplications, until He delivers it from its bondage. And it must needs be that the race of man shall then be in fear and in vehement agitation on account of the many offenses it has committed. Then the righteous alone will rejoice, as they look for the things which have been promised them; and the subsistence of the affairs of this world will no longer be maintained, but all things shall be destroyed: and whether they be prophecies or the books of prophets, they shall fail; whether they be the tongues of the whole race, they shall cease; for men will no longer need to feel anxiety or to think solicitously about those things which are necessary for life; whether it be knowledge, by whatever teachers it be possessed, it shall also be destroyed: for none of all these things will be able to endure the advent of that mighty King. For just as a little spark, if taken and put up against the splendour of the sun, at once perishes from the view, so the whole creation, all prophecy, all knowledge, all tongues, as we haw said above, shall be destroyed."(Acts of the Disputation with Manes (Archelaus 37)CHURCH FATHERS: Acts of the Disputation with Manes (Archelaus)

"We know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

It is not therefore knowledge that is done away, but the circumstance that our knowledge is in part. For we shall not only know as much but even a great deal more. But that I may also make it plain by example; now we know that God is every where, but how, we know not. That He made out of things that are not the things that are we know; but of the manner we are ignorant. That He was born of a virgin, we know; but how, we know not yet. But then shall we know somewhat more and clearer concerning these things. Next he points out also how great is the distance between the two, and that our deficiency is no small one, saying,"
( Homilies on First Corinthians (Chrysostom) > Homily 34)CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 34 on First Corinthians (Chrysostom)

"Chapter 11
On the abiding character of love.

And why do you wonder that those duties enumerated above will cease, when the holy Apostle tells us that even the higher gifts of the Holy Spirit will pass away: and points out that charity alone will abide without end, saying whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease: whether there be knowledge, it will come to an end, but of this he says Charity never fails. For all gifts are given for a time as use and need require, but when the dispensation is ended they will without doubt presently pass away: but love will never be destroyed. For not only does it work usefully in us in this world; but also in that to come, when the burden of bodily needs is cast off, it will continue in far greater vigour and excellence, and will never be weakened by any defect, but by means of its perpetual incorruption will cling to God more intently and earnestly. 1 Corinthians 13:8"(Conferences (John Cassian) > Conference 1)CHURCH FATHERS: Conference 1 (John Cassian)

"Chapter 39.— He Who is Mature in Faith, Hope and Love, Needs Scripture No Longer.
43. And thus a man who is resting upon faith, hope and love, and who keeps a firm hold upon these, does not need the Scriptures except for the purpose of instructing others. Accordingly, many live without copies of the Scriptures, even in solitude, on the strength of these three graces. So that in their case, I think, the saying is already fulfilled: Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 1 Corinthians 13:8 Yet by means of these instruments (as they may be called), so great an edifice of faith and love has been built up in them, that, holding to what is perfect, they do not seek for what is only in part perfect — of course, I mean, so far as is possible in this life; for, in comparison with the future life, the life of no just and holy man is perfect here. Therefore the apostle says: Now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity: 1 Corinthians 13:13 because, when a man shall have reached the eternal world, while the other two graces will fail, love will remain greater and more assured."(On Christian Doctrine > Book I)CHURCH FATHERS: On Christian Doctrine, Book I (St. Augustine)


"Chapter 41.— The Law Written in the Heart, and the Reward of the Eternal Contemplation of God, Belong to the New Covenant; Who Among the Saints are the Least and the Greatest
As then the law of works, which was written on the tables of stone, and its reward, the land of promise, which the house of the carnal Israel after their liberation from Egypt received, belonged to the old testament, so the law of faith, written on the heart, and its reward, the beatific vision which the house of the spiritual Israel, when delivered from the present world, shall perceive, belong to the new testament. Then shall come to pass what the apostle describes: Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away, 1 Corinthians 13:8 — even that imperfect knowledge of the child in which this present life is passed, and which is but in part, by means of a mirror darkly. Because of this, indeed, prophecy is necessary, for still to the past succeeds the future; and because of this, too, tongues are required — that is, a multiplicity of expressions, since it is by different ones that different things are suggested to him who does not as yet contemplate with a perfectly purified mind the everlasting light of transparent truth. When that, however, which is perfect has come, then that which is in part shall be done away, 1 Corinthians 13:10 then, what appeared to the flesh in assumed flesh shall display Itself as It is in Itself to all who love It; then, there shall be eternal life for us to know the one very God; John 17:3 then shall we be like Him, 1 John 3:2 because we shall then know, even as we are known; 1 Corinthians 13:12 then they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord; for they shall all know me, from the least unto the greatest of them. Jeremiah 31:34 Now this may be understood in several ways: Either, that in that life the saints shall differ one from another in glory, as star from star. It matters not how the expression runs — whether (as in the passage before us) it be, From the least unto the greatest of them, or the other way, From the greatest unto the least. And, in like manner, it matters not even if we understand the least to mean those who simply believe, and the greatest those who have been further able to understand — so far as may be in this world — the light which is incorporeal and unchangeable. Or, the least may mean those who are later in time; while by the greatest He may have intended to indicate those who were prior in time. For they are all to receive the promised vision of God hereafter, since it was for us that they foresaw the future which would be better than their present, that they without us should not arrive at complete perfection. Hebrews 11:40 And so the earlier are found to be the lesser, because they were less deferred in time; as in the case of the gospel penny a day, which is given for an illustration. Matthew 20:8 This penny they are the first to receive who came last into the vineyard. Or, the least and the greatest ought perhaps to be taken in some other sense, which at present does not occur to my mind."(On the Spirit and the Letter (St. Augustine))CHURCH FATHERS: On the Spirit and the Letter (St. Augustine)







NEW ADVENT: Search"tongues%2C+they+shall+cease"&sa=Search&cof=FORID%3A9&siteurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newadvent.org%2Ffathers%2F
 

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Church Fathers on "which is perfect has come"

"Chapter 39.— He Who is Mature in Faith, Hope and Love, Needs Scripture No Longer.
43. And thus a man who is resting upon faith, hope and love, and who keeps a firm hold upon these, does not need the Scriptures except for the purpose of instructing others. Accordingly, many live without copies of the Scriptures, even in solitude, on the strength of these three graces. So that in their case, I think, the saying is already fulfilled: Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 1 Corinthians 13:8 Yet by means of these instruments (as they may be called), so great an edifice of faith and love has been built up in them, that, holding to what is perfect, they do not seek for what is only in part perfect — of course, I mean, so far as is possible in this life; for, in comparison with the future life, the life of no just and holy man is perfect here. Therefore the apostle says: Now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity: 1 Corinthians 13:13 because, when a man shall have reached the eternal world, while the other two graces will fail, love will remain greater and more assured."(On Christian Doctrine > Book I)CHURCH FATHERS: On Christian Doctrine, Book I (St. Augustine)
Due to the difficult grammar that these early churchmen utilised, I wonder how many on this forum will engage with the material?

For those who have read through this material, the comments that were made by Augustine were, to say the least, rather interesting! Who would ever dare say, “He Who is Mature in Faith, Hope and Love, Needs Scripture No Longer”.

If I am reading him correctly, he seems to be saying that perfection can be achieved by those luminaries who have managed to reach a state of pure love. I’m glad that you have made reference to Augustine and even though he is outside of my frame of reference (post-Reformation), it does at least add in another element beyond the Canon and Maturity viewpoints with how the early Roman and Greek monastics (and others) apparently thought that they could reach a state of perfection here on earth.

Even though it is good to have this pointed out, I will probably avoid it as a position within my own studies as it tends to reside outside of mainstream theology - but it is certainly an interesting, though a very strange position. I will have to read through the rest of the material over the next few days.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Due to the difficult grammar that these early churchmen utilised, I wonder how many on this forum will engage with the material?

For those who have read through this material, the comments that were made by Augustine were, to say the least, rather interesting! Who would ever dare say, “He Who is Mature in Faith, Hope and Love, Needs Scripture No Longer”.

If I am reading him correctly, he seems to be saying that perfection can be achieved by those luminaries who have managed to reach a state of pure love. I’m glad that you have made reference to Augustine and even though he is outside of my frame of reference (post-Reformation), it does at least add in another element beyond the Canon and Maturity viewpoints with how the early Roman and Greek monastics (and others) apparently thought that they could reach a state of perfection here on earth.

Even though it is good to have this pointed out, I will probably avoid it as a position within my own studies as it tends to reside outside of mainstream theology - but it is certainly an interesting, though a very strange position. I will have to read through the rest of the material over the next few days.

He does say, "the life of no just and holy man is perfect here." So, he must have a persons level of knowledge of the Scriptures in mind. Back then they did not have Printed Bible's like we do today, and depended on their memory more than we do.

I can't think of the exact studies, but there are educational studies that show that people today --- memories are not as good as they were before the printed page. Since, the internet, use of grammar, spelling and so on have been flushed down the toilet.
 
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He does say, "the life of no just and holy man is perfect here." So, he must have a persons level of knowledge of the Scriptures in mind. Back then they did not have Printed Bible's like we do today, and depended on their memory more than we do.
As I read his statement, I would take it as saying that some have no need for any further enlightenment from the Scriptures, not so much that they can retain what they have once read.

I can't think of the exact studies, but there are educational studies that show that people today --- memories are not as good as they were before the printed page. Since, the internet, use of grammar, spelling and so on have been flushed down the toilet.
I fully agree with this and as much as I rely on some very sophisticated software to keep me going, I have no doubt that my ability to retain information would be far less than with those of previous centuries.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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There's nothing esoteric about this.

Are you looking for comments from others about the comments of these theologians, or are you interested in the meaning of the passage? I think Paul already provided the meaning to us.

I agree
 
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John the Ex-Baptist

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If I am reading him correctly, he seems to be saying that perfection can be achieved by those luminaries who have managed to reach a state of pure love.

I just don't read it that way at all, although I have to admit you do have to mull over what is being said a few times first. But what you said that I've quoted above, not only do I think it clearly inaccurate, but Augustine himself rejects that view even in the same quote when he said:

of course, I mean, so far as is possible in this life; for, in comparison with the future life, the life of no just and holy man is perfect here.

What I believe Augustine is getting at is that in this time right now, we comprehend that glorious inheritance we shall obtain in the coming Kingdom, by faith not by sight. Faith is the evidence of things unseen, and hope is our certain expectation of all that is promised being delivered at that time. If a man is so filled and familiar with the Scriptures in the sense of maturity that he is speaking of, then it is faith (secured upon the object of our faith; Christ), hope (certain expectation His promises will be fulfilled), and love being the outworking of this in patience and suffering. Only when the perfect has come, as Paul says, will we see Him face to face, and know Him as He now knows us. Until then, and because of the frailty of our flesh, we comprehend that glory as through a mirror dimly.

For such an individual, they could get by purely through the Spirit of God working through the Word of God they have already been filled with, which contains all they need for life and godliness. But for teaching others, the Scripture would still be needed, in order for the individual to distinguish between that which God has specifically revealed in His Word, and the imperfect understanding of that truth being spoken by the one teaching.

I haven't read much Augustine at all, but I know Luther was heavily influenced by him, and I think Luther's commentary on the same passage is in harmony with Augustine, but much more clear.

Luther's commentary said:
V.9. “We know in part, and we prophesy in part.”
31 “We know in part”; that is, in this life we know imperfectly, for it is of faith and not of sight. And we “prophesy in part”; that is, imperfectly, for the substance of our prophecy is the Word and preaching. Both knowledge and prophecy, however, reveal nothing short of what the angels see--the one God. V.10. “But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.”
He proves this by way of illustration and contrasts the child with the man. To children, who are yet weak, play is a necessity; it is a substitute for office and work. Similarly, we in the present life are far too frail to behold God. Until we are able, it is necessary that we should use the medium of Word and faith, which are adapted to our limitations. V.12. “For now we see in a mirror [through a glass] darkly; but then face to face.”
32 Faith, Paul tells us, is like a mirror, like a riddle. The actual face is not in the glass; there is but the image of it. Likewise, faith gives us, not the radiant countenance of eternal Deity, but a mere image of him, an image derived through the Word. As a dark riddle points to something more than it expresses, so faith suggests something clearer than that which it perceives. But in the life to come, mirror and riddle, faith and its demonstration, shall all have ceased to be. God's face and our own shall be mutually and clearly revealed. Paul says, V.12. “Now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known [know even also as I am known].” That is, God now knows me perfectly, clearly and plainly; no dark veil is upon myself. But as to him, a dark veil hides him from me. With the same perfect clearness wherewith he now knows me, I shall then know him--without a veil. The veil shall be taken away, not from him, but from me; for upon him is no veil.
 
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