Church extends neighborly welcome to mosque

[tulc]

KIYX,
Liberalism decides which bits of the Bible it reasons are right and which are suspect due to various reasons.

I'm under the impression conservatives do so also.
tulc(suspects it's part of being human)

 

[Phinehas2]

tulc,

I'm under the impression conservatives do so also.

So how does that work when your so called conservatives believe all bits of the Bible are right (2 Tim 3:16, all scripture is God breathed) ?
It is the deceit of liberalsim, we believe what is written is right as written, we then understand what is written in context to interpret what it means. Liberalism questions what it written as interpretation because it is not prepared to accept revelations and understanding that is contrary to certain humanistic views.

 

[Phinehas2]

The Lady Kate,

Kind of like when the Samaritan helped the Jew who had been abandoned by his own people and left to die? (Except possibly not so dramatic)

Well Jesus said the Samaritans worshipped what they did not know and that salvation came from the Jews, so that would be the same with Islam, but this parable shows how worship of God should be lived out by helping others, it doesn’t make any concession to worship of another god.

A "church" is four walls, a roof, and possibly some stained glass, nothing more. It is the actions of the people that dedicate it to the glory of God.

No, a church is a fellowship of believers, this concerns a church building, but Jesus NT teaching says test the spirits to see if they are of God, so why would a spirit not of God be encouraged by a church? I think you are missing the distinction n between helping others or helping their religion.

These people's actions show the grace of God by offering charity to those who need it, not just those you think deserve it.

They don’t have charity by being encouraged in a worldview that leads them away from God.
Let me give you an example of a the good Samaritan parable. Sometime ago my wife saw a Muslim couple waiting to board a bus have the door closed on them for no reason and the bus drive off. She gave a lift to a Muslim couple to their destintaion and rang the bus company to complain. We have since become good friends with this Muslim couple and certainly blessed each other in various ways, but we wouldn’t offer them the opportunity for Islamic prayers in a church.

Which means nothing here.

Surely it means everything, that’s the core of the Christian gospel isn’t it?

Perhaps one day, a church will burn to the ground, and the only available space to pray will be at the local mosque... but the Imam will refuse. Perhaps the Muslims there will remember what happened here.

If there is no building to congregate in Christians can congregate outside, though not usually in an Islamic country, a building isn’t needed. But seeing as you made the assumption, have you got any examples in the west where Christian churches have been given a mosque to hold services in, would they refuse anyway regardless of what this church does?

It may very well be that God is using this church to reach out to the Muslims... I'm willing to give God the credit for helping (some) people see past their prejudices and recognize a people in need, whoever they are.

Though there is nothing in the NT to indicate that is the method to reach out to people and plenty to suggest it isn’t, their need is spiritual, which means its Jesus Christ, a place to worship a another god will not really meet their spiritual need at all.

 

[tulc]

tulc,
So how does that work when your so called conservatives believe all bits of the Bible are right (2 Tim 3:16, all scripture is God breathed) ?
It is the deceit of liberalsim, we believe what is written is right as written, we then understand what is written in context to interpret what it means. Liberalism questions what it written as interpretation because it is not prepared to accept revelations and understanding that is contrary to certain humanistic views.

So...when you've been struck you've turn the other cheek? You don't resist evil? You've plucked out your eye if you looked at a woman with lust? You only have one hand because your other hand offended? If you've been forced to do something you do twice as much as they wanted? You give to anyone who asks and then don't ask for it back? If someone sued you for your coat, you gave them your shirt as well? You love everyone who hates you? You do good and bless those who persecute and dispise you?
tulc(this is just the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount, he will continue once you've mastered those parts)

 

[Jase]

tulc,
So how does that work when your so called conservatives believe all bits of the Bible are right (2 Tim 3:16, all scripture is God breathed) ?
It is the deceit of liberalsim, we believe what is written is right as written, we then understand what is written in context to interpret what it means. Liberalism questions what it written as interpretation because it is not prepared to accept revelations and understanding that is contrary to certain humanistic views.

Why do you continue to misuse 2 Tim 3:16? It never says the Protestant Bible is God-breathed. The only scripture he was referring to was the Hebrew scriptures. That was the definition of "All" from his perspective.

Stop abusing scripture to conform to your views.

 

[The Lady Kate]

The Lady Kate,

Well Jesus said the Samaritans worshipped what they did not know and that salvation came from the Jews, so that would be the same with Islam, but this parable shows how worship of God should be lived out by helping others, it doesn’t make any concession to worship of another god.

Well, it's a good thing that nobody's asking Christians to worship another God... all they're doing is helping people in need.

They reached out to people that many Christians... including yourself... would write off... sounds like a perfect parallel to the Good Samaritan.

No, a church is a fellowship of believers,

No, that's a Church... capital "C"

this concerns a church building, but Jesus NT teaching says test the spirits to see if they are of God, so why would a spirit not of God be encouraged by a church?

Because it would show the true character of those believers... and for once, it's encouraging to see.

I think you are missing the distinction n between helping others or helping their religion.

I don't see a religion being helped... I see people being helped. And I say God bless the helpers.

They don’t have charity by being encouraged in a worldview that leads them away from God.

And yet, they have seen a charitable spirit in this Church... something they probably didn't expect.

Let me give you an example of a the good Samaritan parable. Sometime ago my wife saw a Muslim couple waiting to board a bus have the door closed on them for no reason and the bus drive off. She gave a lift to a Muslim couple to their destintaion and rang the bus company to complain. We have since become good friends with this Muslim couple and certainly blessed each other in various ways, but we wouldn’t offer them the opportunity for Islamic prayers in a church.

Nor would I expect you to.

Surely it means everything, that’s the core of the Christian gospel isn’t it?

Is it?

If there is no building to congregate in Christians can congregate outside, though not usually in an Islamic country, a building isn’t needed. But seeing as you made the assumption, have you got any examples in the west where Christian churches have been given a mosque to hold services in, would they refuse anyway regardless of what this church does?

I need examples of something that may happen in the future? Is not the Golden Rule, "Do onto other as you would have them do onto you," and not "Do only onto others what you've already seen them do onto you"?

Two groups of people staring each other down shaking their fists at each other will never find peace until one side unclenches their fists and offers a hand of friendship... Christ has made it abundantly clear that our side should always be the first to do so.

Though there is nothing in the NT to indicate that is the method to reach out to people and plenty to suggest it isn’t, their need is spiritual, which means its Jesus Christ, a place to worship a another god will not really meet their spiritual need at all.

Their need is physical... they needed a building. This Church provided one. I can only pray that their selfless act softens a few hard hearts... both Muslim and Christian.

 

[Yusuf Evans]

I'm glad to hear this Church has decided to reach out its hands, and help the local Muslims with a place to worship. We both worship the same God, we just have different takes on who Jesus(PBUH) is. SubhanAllah and may Allah SWT bless these people for helping others out.

 

[Phinehas2]

tulc,

So...when you've been struck you've turn the other cheek? You don't resist evil? You've plucked out your eye if you looked at a woman with lust? You only have one hand because your other hand offended? If you've been forced to do something you do twice as much as they wanted? You give to anyone who asks and then don't ask for it back? If someone sued you for your coat, you gave them your shirt as well? You love everyone who hates you? You do good and bless those who persecute and dispise you?

tulc(this is just the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount, he will continue once you've mastered those parts)

So why have you referred to what a part of the Bible says that I have already said is right? Yet the issue was, is it right? Yes it is right, if it isnt right how could one understand it or interpret it?


Jase

Why do you continue to misuse 2 Tim 3:16? It never says the Protestant Bible is God-breathed.

Well there is your answer, you are misusing it.

 

[Phinehas2]

The Lady Kate,

Well, it's a good thing that nobody's asking Christians to worship another God... all they're doing is helping people in need.

Nor did I say Christians were being asked to worship another god, what I did say is that this makes concessions to worship of another god. Why would you ignore what was actually said if you weren’t pro-Islam in some way?

They reached out to people that many Christians... including yourself... would write off... sounds like a perfect parallel to the Good Samaritan.

Excuse me, I have just given you an example of how my wife and I reached out to Muslims. So do you think reaching out to people is aiding them in their worship? Where does Jesus NT teaching advise that?

Because it would show the true character of those believers... and for once, it's encouraging to see.

What that they are not able to test the spirits to see that they are of God or not? Jesus and the NT disciples never made any compromises to other religion, the only sacrificial love they showed was to people of those other religions.

I don't see a religion being helped... I see people being helped. And I say God bless the helpers.

Ah but will He? I suggest they could have helped them by inviting them to the church services.

And yet, they have seen a charitable spirit in this Church... something they probably didn't expect.

They may have, or they may see the church as weak in their faith. What you seem to be unable to discern is that there are many ways in which a church or its members can reach out to Muslims without encouraging or supporting Islam.

Is it?

Yes, in what way do you think this isn’t a core part of the gospel?
God wants everyone to come to Him through Jesus Christ, Islam is a direct barrier to that because it denies Jesus Christ as the truth, the way and the life, and no one comes to the Father God except through Christ.

I need examples of something that may happen in the future? Is not the Golden Rule, "Do onto other as you would have them do onto you," and not "Do only onto others what you've already seen them do onto you"?

So you haven’t even got any examples. Hmmn. So you have seen an example of where my wife and I did something to others as they would have done to us, and a little like the parable of the good Samaritan, yet you keep posting this ‘do unto others at me’ Let me aks you, in what way apart from the testimony I have given were you thinking of, and in what ways have you reached out to Muslims.

Two groups of people staring each other down shaking their fists at each other will never find peace until one side unclenches their fists and offers a hand of friendship...

Yeah I agree with that but where does that fit in this issue? who has been doing that?

Their need is physical... they needed a building.

They needed a building to worship so their need was spiritual as much as physical.

This Church provided one. I can only pray that their selfless act softens a few hard hearts... both Muslim and Christian.

I also pray that, but I suggest they may be deceived.

 

[Phinehas2]

Eazy E has undoubtedly posted the real issue here, the claim that Christians and Muslims worship the same god. This is a Muslim view and not a Christian one, and one which is deceiving many Christians in the west.
I and others have already presented the argument, references from surahs 2, 4, and 5 & 9 and 1 John 2 and 4. namely the idea of it being the same god is an early Mecca Quran verse which should be abrogated by the later verses which deny that it is the same. In addition 1 John warns of the denial Jesus Christ as the risen Son of God which the Quran specifically does.

We both worship the same God, we just have different takes on who Jesus(PBUH) is.

This is an impossible contradiction, God is Father Son and Holy Spirit so one can’t have a different take on Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ is God.

 

[Yusuf Evans]

*snip*

During my 6 week ban, in which I was banned for calling Christians fools, I learned something about you and the others who try and post Islam in a negative like and state that it is inferior to Christianity: Your arguments are extremely weak, period.

I'm not going to sit here and criticize your knowledge concerning Islam, then post verses from the Holy Qu'ran to refute them. The minute I do, you or another Christian will report me for prostelyzing, or a mod will come in and warn me that I'm prostelyzing. Then of course, what would be the point in doing that? You'll refuse to reasonably understand anything I post, and your whole argument is the abrogation theory. This also has been pointed out as a fallacy, yet you still refuse to accept an actual Muslim scholar's take on what is stated in the Holy Qur'an. Therefore, I assume that your desire to understand Islam is non-existent but that you're hell bent on trying to make Muslims look stupid, contradicting and ignorant.

 

[Phinehas2]

Eazy E,

During my 6 week ban, in which I was banned for calling Christians fools, I learned something about you and the others who try and post Islam in a negative like and state that it is inferior to Christianity: Your arguments are extremely weak, period.

Firstly let me say we may have found a common ground, sadly personally I do not think it should be a banning offense to call someone a fool.
I was watching Press TV or Al Jazeera yesterday and in fairness they had a debate on that was more representative than I usually see on the BBC. It concerned the portrayal of Islam in the media. Someone representing Islam said to a UK thinktank representative why did he always link terrorist attacks to Islam, the reply was that the thinktank representative didn’t, the attackers did, most of the attacks are done in the name of Islam. I find, whether they agree with the attacks or not, many Muslims seem obvious to this reality.
They also had a Dutch guy on, probably due to the Gert Wilders trial who though the extremist Islamists/Muslims would gradually be isolated and Islam would develop into its own European variant. I wouldn’t be surprised if you thought the same as the Dutch guy, certainly it is what humanism would like to see. Yet cartoons of Mohammed, burning a Quran and the like still provoke widespread demonstrations and death threats.

I'm not going to sit here and criticize your knowledge concerning Islam, then post verses from the Holy Qu'ran to refute them.

Why not that’s exactly what I have invited you to do, indeed I have mostly when putting across the points asked your opinion as to whether it is the case.

The minute I do, you or another Christian will report me for prostelyzing, or a mod will come in and warn me that I'm prostelyzing.

Really? I find that alarming, are you sure as discussing what the Quran says and Islamic history is no more proselytising than any other discussions we have.

You'll refuse to reasonably understand anything I post, and your whole argument is the abrogation theory.

Abrogation isnt theory, it is a well discussed topic in Islam. Try this.. The Problem of Abrogation in the Quran
You will see that scholars are divided on the exact nature of abrogation. You may indeed refer to one scholar but I think that what that scholar is saying doesn’t represent the majority and certainly what your scholar is saying doesn’t seem to match what the Quran verse says. Now I ma not saying you are wrong or your scholar is wrong I am just testing it.

Therefore, I assume that your desire to understand Islam is non-existent

Personally from what I have presented I feel I have an even better background knowledge of Islam that you do, you haven’t really reasoned, all you have dine is deny and point me to the scholar you think is best.

but that you're hell bent on trying to make Muslims look stupid, contradicting and ignorant.

No that’s your view, I have dealt with Islam, I have had no thoughts to that effect about Muslims.

 

[I <3 Abraham]

My church has an excellent relationship with a nearby mosque. We even had their imam come and read verses from the Quran paired with a passage from Mark (the question concerning other exorcists).

We will also be going to attend worship with them on occasion.

It is not a universal that Christians and Muslims are at odds with one another. When I was living in a village in Sierra Leone (briefly), I learned that that country simply does not have religious tensions around Islam/Christianity. Both Christians and Muslims have a 6:00 AM daily prayer service and in Pujehun, the mosque and church are only 50 feet away from each other. During periods of silent prayer in the Christian service, you could hear the quiet unison prayers from the mosque and during their silent prayers, they would hear our hymns. After worship, the Christians and Muslims would greet one another warmly in the village square before going to begin the work of the day.

I don't know what God you all worship, but the God I worship was as close as my own breath in those services. God was among and within and between the Christians and the Muslims as we worshipped the Holy One.

It is not a universal truth that Christians and Muslims must be at one another's throats over who does and doesn't have the one true path to salvation. People spend FAR too much time worrying about other people's salvation and clinging to their truths to the point that they cannot learn from anyone else. Instead, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling because it is God who is at work within you both to will and work for God's good pleasure.

Do you understand what that means?

 

[Spartan 421]

You worship the same God. The God of Abraham and Issac. The one who killed all the firstborn in Egypt, the one who made Job's life a living hell, and the one who says you can't eat shellfish.

 

[I <3 Abraham]

Personally from what I have presented I feel I have an even better background knowledge of Islam that you do, you haven’t really reasoned, all you have dine is deny and point me to the scholar you think is best. No that’s your view, I have dealt with Islam, I have had no thoughts to that effect about Muslims.

Do you honestly think that reading about Islam on the internet makes you more knowledgeable than a practicing Muslim?

That is a very arrogant statement. Even though you couched it with weasel words like "personally" and "I feel". Especially since you, essentially, use the same tactics. Denying the sources he points to by pointing to your own sources all the while mistaking tete a tete for conversation.

Also, from your post, "you haven’t really reasoned, all you have dine is deny ". What a remarkably presumptuous statement. You will never get anywhere in building relationships with people if you behave this way. And you will never learn about Islam unless you build relationships with muslims. The knowledge you have is like a person who has read a mountain of webpages about car-repair but doesn't have access to a car. I wouldn't trust such a person to refill my wiper fluid.

 

[I <3 Abraham]

You worship the same God. The God of Abraham and Issac. The one who killed all the firstborn in Egypt, the one who made Job's life a living hell, and the one who says you can't eat shellfish.

Rabbi Harold Kushner is coming out with a book about Job. Keep an eye out for it.

 

[tulc]

tulc,
So why have you referred to what a part of the Bible says that I have already said is right? Yet the issue was, is it right? Yes it is right, if it isnt right how could one understand it or interpret it? [/color].

Conservatives seem to believe (IMHO) not that the Bible is right, they believe their interpretation of the Bible is right and all others are wrong.
tulc(could use a rather large cup of coffee right now)

 

[Supreme]

Conservatives seem to believe (IMHO) not that the Bible is right, they believe their interpretation of the Bible is right and all others are wrong.
tulc(could use a rather large cup of coffee right now)

To be fair, everyone's guiltly of that- liberal or conservative. But that's hardly surprising, as it's very difficult to empathise with a view different from your own.

 

[DeathMagus]

To be fair, everyone's guiltly of that- liberal or conservative. But that's hardly surprising, as it's very difficult to empathise with a view different from your own.

Well, except for those who subscribe to universalism.

 

[tulc]

To be fair, everyone's guiltly of that- liberal or conservative. But that's hardly surprising, as it's very difficult to empathise with a view different from your own.

Ahhh! That was my point!
tulc(thanks for making it clearer then I did)