Church Elders

[Tree of Life]

1 Timothy 3:2 - Therefore an overseer must be above reproach...

Elders are supposed to be above reproach. Does this mean that they should be, by and large, without sin? Explain.

 

[Adstar]

1 Timothy 3:2 - Therefore an overseer must be above reproach...

Elders are supposed to be above reproach. Does this mean that they should be, by and large, without sin? Explain.

No man is without sin.. But Elders should be have a high level of self control.. To have extensive knowledge of all things scriptural and be servenat of their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ..

 

[Amazing Horse]

Jesus come not to make bad people good but to make dead people live .

It says that preacher should show himself without blemish , because he is representing God's gospel in church in open forum to other people , so people can't mock him for being adulter for example , and because of that sin which thier pastor does they could leave church .

If he is leading sheep and feeding flock then he should give good example .

 

[woobadooba]

No man is without sin

What do you mean by this?

Are you saying all people are guilty before God? Are you saying all people are active in sinning all the time? Or are you saying something else?

 

[Adstar]

What do you mean by this?

Are you saying all people are guilty before God? Are you saying all people are active in sinning all the time? Or are you saying something else?

I mean what i said ::: No man is without sin....
Only innocent little ones are without sin..

 

[Ken Rank]

1 Timothy 3:2 - Therefore an overseer must be above reproach...

Elders are supposed to be above reproach. Does this mean that they should be, by and large, without sin? Explain.

No, an elder is a human being who can err like anyone else. The word for blameless is anepilēptos and isn't the idea of being "perfect," but rather Thayer says it well:

Thayer Definition:
1) not apprehended, that cannot be laid hold of
2) that cannot be reprehended, not open to censure, irreproachable

The idea isn't perfection but a man who lives a life that reflects the Lord with his words and deeds and isn't involved in things that will give cause for allegations or rebuke. He isn't living in a manner that would give you reason to bring charges against him.

 

[Tree of Life]

No, an elder is a human being who can err like anyone else. The word for blameless is anepilēptos and isn't the idea of being "perfect," but rather Thayer says it well:

Thayer Definition:
1) not apprehended, that cannot be laid hold of
2) that cannot be reprehended, not open to censure, irreproachable

The idea isn't perfection but a man who lives a life that reflects the Lord with his words and deeds and isn't involved in things that will give cause for allegations or rebuke. He isn't living in a manner that would give you reason to bring charges against him.

I agree. This refers to someone who is not open to charges. This does not mean that he is without sin. It simply means that none can charge him of unrepentant or flagrant sin.

 

[woobadooba]

I mean what i said ::: No man is without sin....
Only innocent little ones are without sin..

You need to define your terms. Do you want people to understand you? Please answer the questions in post #4

 

[bbbbbbb]

I agree. This refers to someone who is not open to charges. This does not mean that he is without sin. It simply means that none can charge him of unrepentant or flagrant sin.

This ought to be obvious. Regarding sin in his mind or heart, only God can tell that, so it is right to believe that nobody is without sin unless sin is redefined as being external disobedience only.

 

[Tree of Life]

The original function of 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1 are of interest to me. Paul is not writing to prospective elders, giving them a check list for what they need to be/accomplish in order to achieve their goal.

Rather, he is writing to apostolic leaders of the church (themselves elders) who are in the business of appointing other elders. He's telling them what they should look out for in a prospective elder.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The original function of 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1 are of interest to me. Paul is not writing to prospective elders, giving them a check list for what they need to be/accomplish in order to achieve their goal.

Rather, he is writing to apostolic leaders of the church (themselves elders) who are in the business of appointing other elders. He's telling them what they should look out for in a prospective elder.

Actually he is writing to Timothy in particular. Many have taken Timothy as representing elders who appoint other elders, thus resulting in a form of oligarchy. Others have taken Timothy as being an apostolic representative (or even an apostle in a more linguistically literal sense) who appoints elders although he is not an elder himself. Paul, for example, appointed elders although he never claimed to be an elder himself, but claimed to be an apostle. Still others, find in Timothy a pastor who appoints individual pastors in a church. This, IMO, takes extreme liberties with the letters to Timothy.

 

[Tree of Life]

Actually he is writing to Timothy in particular. Many have taken Timothy as representing elders who appoint other elders, thus resulting in a form of oligarchy. Others have taken Timothy as being an apostolic representative (or even an apostle in a more linguistically literal sense) who appoints elders although he is not an elder himself. Paul, for example, appointed elders although he never claimed to be an elder himself, but claimed to be an apostle. Still others, find in Timothy a pastor who appoints individual pastors in a church. This, IMO, takes extreme liberties with the letters to Timothy.

So what's the right way to view Timothy?

 

[bbbbbbb]

So what's the right way to view Timothy?

Based on what I see in scripture Timothy was a young man who had been discipled fully by Paul and appointed by Paul and sent out (the root meaning of apostle) to, among other things, appoint elders in the churches. Titus also served in the same manner, as evidenced by Paul's letter to him.

 

[Halbhh]

Jesus come not to make bad people good but to make dead people live .

It says that preacher should show himself without blemish , because he is representing God's gospel in church in open forum to other people , so people can't mock him for being adulter for example , and because of that sin which thier pastor does they could leave church .

If he is leading sheep and feeding flock then he should give good example .

Generally agree except about that unfortunate wording in the first sentence -- Jesus told us that He came "to call sinners to repentance." So, of course, if we say "Jesus came to ______" we shouldn't accidentally replace what He Himself said. Knowing the Truth that He came to call us sinners, you and me, to repentance, it's also right I think that I was dead, and now I'm alive! Praise God!

 

[Amazing Horse]

Generally agree except about that unfortunate wording in the first sentence -- Jesus told us that He came "to call sinners to repentance." So, of course, if we say "Jesus came to ______" we shouldn't accidentally replace what He Himself said. Knowing the Truth that He came to call us sinners, you and me, to repentance, it's also right I think that I was dead, and now I'm alive! Praise God!

Repentance is change of mind from self righteousness to being righteouss by faith in Jesus Christ ( on the topic of sin ) .

 

[1213]

1 Timothy 3:2 - Therefore an overseer must be above reproach...

Elders are supposed to be above reproach. Does this mean that they should be, by and large, without sin? Explain.

I understand it means they should be without blame. They should not do things against God’s will. But obviously, no disciples of Jesus (“Christian”) should live in sin, or do things against God’s will. Jesus didn’t come to give permission to do bad things. He came to declare forgiveness and teach that we should repent, stop sinning.

One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won't see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
John 3:36


He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10


These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more
John 8:11

 

[Halbhh]

Repentance is change of mind from self righteousness to being righteouss by faith in Jesus Christ ( on the topic of sin ) .

When He used the word repentance, He didn't mean something else, like "faith", which He also spoke on, but instead He meant what He said, of course, repentance. That we gain righteousness by faith doesn't mean we can ignore the need to repent later when we stumble and sin, but don't only take my word for it, but read and learn more on it. Someone might explain it better.

 

[bbbbbbb]

When He used the word repentance, He didn't mean something else, like "faith", which He also spoke on, but instead He meant what He said, of course, repentance. That we gain righteousness by faith doesn't mean we can ignore the need to repent later when we stumble and sin, but don't only take my word for it, but read and learn more on it. Someone might explain it better.

The word for repentance in Greek is metanoia. It is a combined word of meta and noia. Meta means to change and noia is the mind. Thus, metanoia is to change one's mind.

How does this metanoia work out in the Bible. In preaching the gospel we see calls for metanoia concerning the person and work of Jesus Christ, specifically His resurrection (I Corinthians 15). Unless one has metanoia concerning Jesus Christ any other change of mind is mere reformation and not true conversion.

 

[Alicia Schout]

1 Timothy 3:2 - Therefore an overseer must be above reproach...

Elders are supposed to be above reproach. Does this mean that they should be, by and large, without sin? Explain.

Well, they are sinners just like you and me. But they
especially elders (overseers) must be of a good conduct. A good example for others e.g. for the youngsters.
They should rebuke/disapproved with love, certain bad behaviour of our youngsters. Sexual immorality, drugs and alcochol misuse, racism, and other such conducts must be disapproved with love for the youngster. For whoever the Lord loves, He chastise and correct.
We are living in a society where freedom has gone to far. Lost of respect, Christian customs and values.
The Church has lost its flavor of salt. We must be the head of the society and not the tail. Protest against all behaviour that is against our Christian values. Cast down all strongholds. We must stop sleeping and slumbering. But awaken to stand up for our belief. That is also one of the way of showing the Lord we love Him. First God and than ourselves.

 

[Paidiske]

I think - as someone who lives in the role - the hardest part of that portion of the letter is actually the bit about being "well thought of by outsiders." There's a very fine balance to be walked there, between having a hospitable, gentle and generous integrity, and being a people-pleaser...