Church discipline

Edo2

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Some of what they want to discipline your husband for is valid but its also something that you shouldn't be taking the discipline for. If and when he wants to make changes to his life it needs to come from his heart and no amount of discipline will make that happen until he is ready.

Some red flags though. Your father in law stating you can't just leave the church. That's cult like. Part of your husbands reconciliation called for 15% in tithes. Reconciliation should come from the heart not the pocketbook and your finances aren't the churches busniss. That's between you your husband and god. They have no say on what amount you should pay.

Were any of the ladies that you would have to do counseling with at the party and cheering them on? If so that should be another red flag.

Ask god for wisdom as he gives it freely cause in trying to expose your husbands faults they are exposing their own as well. You gotta ask yourself is the kind of church leadership you want to be under. I know you said you would pray about it but the spirit should be setting off warning signals about being there as well.
 
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Clovis Man

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Ah I get you. You mean like how Jesus was criticized the lawyer and corrected him with the parable if the good Samaritan?
Yeah, sorta. The way I see your church operating is all trying to force you to correct your husband to what THEY think he should do, even though he no longer is a part of their group.

I don't think I've read any love or forgiveness in this whole thread. They probably think what they're doing is out of love and correction but they come across as very much like the Sanhedrin.

I was once a member of an independent Baptist Church. Had an odd combination of factors that caused me to miss church three weeks in a row. They didn't call, come by, write a postcard, even. I decided I would wait and see just how long it would take them to do any of that and twenty plus years later I'm still waiting. Weird, but I became a Lutheran since then. Life is full of twist and turns.

In your situation? I'd go find a different church. The one you're at seems to be missing some essential doctrines.
 
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381465

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Yikes again!

If you tithe 20%, can you get a reserved parking spot? Will 25% get you old school indulgence?

My church has bad actors and goofy/not scriptural practices...but WOW!

What on earth would make them feel OK with grilling you about your income, house size, horses and food?

Sick.
 
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lambkisses

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Some red flags though. Your father in law stating you can't just leave the church. That's cult like.
My own father spoke to me privately afterwards. So it seems in the 15 years that we have been separated from the Southern Baptist Convention, this is the very first time church discipline has been used. Not the first time to discipline a wide add the proxy fir the husband but the first time period. Apparently this whole thing was set into motion by my husband's family. My father said that since my husband left the church my in laws were very ashamed and concerned about "face". Although there is plenty of Scripture which states that the sins of the father are not placed unto the son and vice versa, the Asian concept of "face" is very very strong and in some cases toxic. My father said that all of this is due to his parents wanting to save face. He is of the opinion that if my husband doesn't want to go to church any longer it is his choice, he isn't preventing any one else from going and he isn't disrupting the church's function so everyone should let him be. He added that forcing these issues actually cause more of a disruption than anything else. However, since my husband's parents are in leadership roles they are able to exert their influence. I asked my father, if this is the case why are the rest of the elders and pastors going along with this and in essance wading into a family dispute. He said that, it is because my in laws are also very knowledgeable of Scripture and legalistic. They were able to produce a litany of scriptural evidence that could be interpreted to support their call for discipline. As I said, our church left the SBC due to the SBC being too liberal. My in laws argued that without discipline the church would rot from within as such no one wanted to appear "soft". My father added that my father in law is also very clever, he abstained from the vote in order to give the appearance that he was trying to avoid a conflict of interest, that way my own father had to do the same. Going back to being "cult like" I assure you that's not the case, my father said that almost all involved would be happy if my husband never returned to that church. It is more his parents don't want him to leave due to the perceived loss of "face".
Part of your husbands reconciliation called for 15% in tithes. Reconciliation should come from the heart not the pocketbook and your finances aren't the churches busniss. That's between you your husband and god. They have no say on what amount you should pay.
On and off through the years people have always grumbled that my husband makes "too much money". And up until December my husband had always given an offering that was for the most part negotiated between his parents, myself, and him. At that time I was naive and honestly believed we should give as much as we can and my husband was very very resistant and his parents were very insistent he show how generous he could be. So we came to a compromise which was pretty much in effect most of the time we were married. Nobody was truly happy, his parents thought it was too little, he thought too much and I though that there was do much more we could do. When the blow up happened my husband decided that he will never again give a dime to the church and hasn't since December.
I was once a member of an independent Baptist Church. Had an odd combination of factors that caused me to miss church three weeks in a row. They didn't call, come by, write a postcard, even. I decided I would wait and see just how long it would take them to do any of that and twenty plus years later I'm still waiting.
This actually reminds me of something funny that happened when I was working at Dow chemical. When I quit to to accompany my husband in UAE they threw me a big party in my department. So I thought that everyone was aware I didn't work there any longer. While I worked there, every Thursday I would go to grainger to pick up a specific type of ppe glove I liked using. So I was cordial to those people but I didn't know any of them since my only real interaction was pay for the gloves and leave. Well one day, about 6 months before I resigned I had a brief conversation about dogs to one of the cashiers. Anyways, we really didn't strike up a friendship, we never really spoke again but some times when she would see me she would wave and such. Well about a month after my husband and I moved to UAE, my parents call us and tell me that some girl came to their house looking for me. It turned out that chick got worried that she hadn't seen me come in on Thursdays anymore so she tracked me down through transactions since I only every got one thing and on the same day. I met up with her when I returned and we have been friends ever since.
 
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Traveling teacher

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Church discipline is in the Bible OT and NT......

I dont believe this discipline is too extreme in this case...besides this is his son!!!!!!

Look at Moses in the wilderness....
Didn't Eli and Aaron refuse to discipline their sons and they were grown adults.....
And God had to strike them down.......Leviticus 10
The Sin of Nadab and Abihu
1Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. 2And fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD.…

Gideon whiped the elders of israel with thorns and thistles
Judges 8:16 He took the elders of the city, and thorns of the wilderness and briers, and he disciplined the men of Succoth with them.

Just because many in America dont believe in church discipline anymore doesnt mean that is what God wants.
What about Jesus in the temple??????
What about Paul's discipline with Corinth?????was that too extreme also???????
 
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lambkisses

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Church discipline is in the Bible OT and NT......

I dont believe this discipline is too extreme in this case...besides this is his son!!!!!!

Look at Moses in the wilderness....
Didn't Eli and Aaron refuse to discipline their sons and they were grown adults.....
And God had to strike them down.......Leviticus 10
The Sin of Nadab and Abihu
1Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. 2And fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD.…

Gideon whiped the elders of israel with thorns and thistles
Judges 8:16 He took the elders of the city, and thorns of the wilderness and briers, and he disciplined the men of Succoth with them.

Just because many in America dont believe in church discipline anymore doesnt mean that is what God wants.
What about Jesus in the temple??????
What about Paul's discipline with Corinth?????was that too extreme also???????
Sure say I agree that discipline is allowed, warranted and just but how effective is it on a non member?
It all means nothing if the person who they are trying to correct doesn't want reconciliation or want to be part of the church. Like I said subjecting a former member to discipline is about as effective as subjecting a non member.
 
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Phil 1:21

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OK, so I came out of the meeting with the elders, the associated pastors, and the head pastors. In this meeting they went into depth concerning the decision to subject my husband and I to discipline.
As some one else stated, yes the party was the straw that broke the camels back. According to them, this was a long time coming. Furthermore there were several videos shot by different people which served as evidence. In addition to this there were 18 different complaints from 18 different families. This was one of those fruits of the spirit arguments. This is how they broke down each allegation and the supporting evidence.
Corrupt morals: they had a video of his monolog where he states the benefits of being a companion (privilege at work) and how he expects his 6 subordinates to fight for the honor. They say that what my husband was advocating was a blatant abuse of authority.
Extravagance: they argued that the party was too ostentatious and over the top. They claim that we are suppose to be responsible Stewarts of our resources and we squandered them on frivolousness. I rebutted with 1) we spent a total of 500 dollars, and the majority was spent on food (we fed 30 kids and about 70 adults), 2) all the decorations were made of cardboard by my husband's friends, 3)the entertainment was provided free of charge, 4)I reminded my father (who is himself a church elder ) that he initially gave me 300 dollars to pay for a magician. 5) I had nothing to do with the planning of the party, I was pretty much a guest. At that point the questions shifted from why was the party so opulent to why do you two need such a big house fir just the two if you? Why do you two need so many horses? Why do you always eat so well ?
Pridefullness: they said that the fact that he forced new names onto his companions is very unhealthy. And the fact that he named them all after Alexander The Great's companions is troubling. Especially since or church recognizes the Greek king for told in the book of Daniel to be Alexander the great. I told them that my husband doesn't really think he is actually Alexander the great, he is just having fun with his friends. Furthermore I also stated that he didn't name himself. That is when my father in law (also a church elder, got upset at me and accused me of not taking this seriously ). Also they said that six on one xaio kun demonstration (which they have multiple videos of) was more than enough evidence of his Pridefullness.
So I guess they did not view the party as the sweet gesture I thought it was. I reiterated to them that I had absolutely no part in the planning of the party. I told them that I didn't even know the theme of the party until the minute I arrived with everyone else. I expressed how I didn't think it was fair that they were subjecting me to discipline too especially since my husband had actually left the church in December and thus not subject to discipline. That is when my father in law stated that one can't just leave the church and the two of us are still one. That's when they stated that the specific reason I am subject to discipline is because according to them I was encouraging his behavior. I protested that his behavior causes me as much consternation as it does anybody. I more tolerate his excentricities than support them. Also I reminded them that our church teachers that men are spiritual leaders and that the wife is to be submissive in all matters so what do they propose I do? That is when they cued up a video of the party. They said that my "actions at the party"clearly show I support his behavior. I asked them to explain their accusation and they cued up a clip where I am seem cheering during the six on one match. I argued that everyone was cheering and not a single person (including other church members) made any attempt to stop the match. You could even hear other moms in the video whooping and whistling. They said that I was "extra complicit " because near the beginning of the six in one match I started singing the Once Upon A time in China theme and waving a Chinese Nationalist flag. They claimed that the video showed that my husband fought fiercer and more aggressively as I sang and that provoked his best friend to start chanting "KMT KMT".
After they finished laying out all the charges and evidence they got onto the topic of restoration and reconciliation. They said that in order for my husband to receive reconciliation he has to do the following
1)return to church and attend Sunday services
2)commit to a minimum 15% tithe
3)public apology for his behavior and a special apology to the family with whom he has the Tonka truck grudge
3)disband the Companions and shared the gospel with them
4)assist the young man with whom he has the Tonka truck beef with finding employment
5)immediately cease teaching Kung-fu and renounce the xaio kun style (I pointed out that the xaio kun is a family tradition and that maybe they should ask my father in law where my husband learned the technique to begin with)
They said for me to receive reconciliation I need to do one of two things. I could either 1)compel my husband to seek reconciliation (very very unlikely )
Or
2) submit to a year of "women's peer counseling" and be under discipline until the year is complete.

Sister, what you have is not a church, but a cult. Shake the dust from your feet and never look back.
 
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lambkisses

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Sister, what you have is not a church, but a cult. Shake the dust from your feet and never look back.
I honestly don't think it is a cult, I think it is individuals hypocritically using church authority and cherry picked interpretation of Scripture to satisfy their own pride. No churches are perfect, I think the parents of my husband need to be ousted from their leadership positions that's for sure.this is s witch hunt plain and simple. I personally think labeling the church as a cult would be just as unfair if the Plymouth church was labeled a cult due to the Salem witch trials.
 
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381465

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Your church sounds a lot like the church my nephew and his wife attend.
They are looking at other churches.
My nephew started attending as it was his wife's family church.
Old men rule with iron fists. Women are second class.
Nephew's wife is divorced, first husband abused her. The old heads still treat her poorly for being divorced. To the point of not acknowledging her outside of church.

Strangely, some names of some men church leaders seemed familiar to me and nephew. Running backgrounds came up with some interesting criminal activity.
 
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Phil 1:21

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Strangely, some names of some men church leaders seemed familiar to me and nephew. Running backgrounds came up with some interesting criminal activity.

I'm afraid the next time they acted up I'd be tempted to start writing with my finger in the dirt. :oldthumbsup:
 
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381465

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I'm afraid the next time they acted up I'd be tempted to start writing with my finger in the dirt. :oldthumbsup:
It kills my nephew.
He's still a detective and as cynical as I was...Probably still am.
His wife is the sweetest kid and they treat her like garbage.
When we're invited, I decline. My wife is nervous about us going and my recognizing a face or name from 20 years ago.


She's probably justified.
 
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Traveling teacher

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Talk to your husband ....
Is he wanting to go to another church...or does he want to play Alexander the Great for the next 20 years...
even if you go to another church I believe this 6-year old playing super hero deal needs to go.....

I grew up in an extremely conservative COC as did my wife......
I decided to go to a more grace filled evangelical church 20 years ago because of the legalism......
my wife was not really wanting to go....but she went!!!!!
We did fine for a few years then my wife decided not to get involved anymore...that has been 15 years...

She just could not adjust if the elders were not checking up on her periodically....she has never adjusted...

If you are comfortable at this invionment and that is all you know....
moving to a different church may not be all it's cut out to be....just saying from experience.....
 
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381465

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Talk to your husband ....
Is he wanting to go to another church...or does he want to play Alexander the Great for the next 20 years...
even if you go to another church I believe this 6-year old playing super hero deal needs to go.....

I grew up in an extremely conservative COC as did my wife......
I decided to go to a more grace filled evangelical church 20 years ago because of the legalism......
my wife was not really wanting to go....but she went!!!!!
We did fine for a few years then my wife decided not to get involved anymore...that has been 15 years...

She just could not adjust if the elders were not checking up on her periodically....she has never adjusted...

If you are comfortable at this invionment and that is all you know....
moving to a different church may not be all it's cut out to be....just saying from experience.....

Hey there.

I'm just curious about your post, not being provocative...did your wife not adjust because elders did not check up on her?
Does that mean checking on her welfare or checking on her activity?

Just curious.
 
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Phil 1:21

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I don't understand the reference

John 8:2-11

2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11 “No one, sir,” she said.

The scripture doesn't say what Jesus was writing on the ground. Based on the context, the general consensus is that He was listing their sins.
 
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GandalfTheWise

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OK, so I came out of the meeting with the elders, the associated pastors, and the head pastors. In this meeting they went into depth concerning the decision to subject my husband and I to discipline.
As some one else stated, yes the party was the straw that broke the camels back. According to them, this was a long time coming...
...After they finished laying out all the charges and evidence they got onto the topic of restoration and reconciliation. They said that in order for my husband to receive reconciliation he has to do the following
1)return to church and attend Sunday services
2)commit to a minimum 15% tithe
3)public apology for his behavior and a special apology to the family with whom he has the Tonka truck grudge
3)disband the Companions and shared the gospel with them
4)assist the young man with whom he has the Tonka truck beef with finding employment
5)immediately cease teaching Kung-fu and renounce the xaio kun style (I pointed out that the xaio kun is a family tradition and that maybe they should ask my father in law where my husband learned the technique to begin with)
They said for me to receive reconciliation I need to do one of two things. I could either 1)compel my husband to seek reconciliation (very very unlikely )
Or
2) submit to a year of "women's peer counseling" and be under discipline until the year is complete.

I've been following most of what you've written. My sense is that this is a messy situation that has been building for some time. Things that should have been dealt with years ago have slowly built up to the breaking point. Something I didn't catch onto earlier is that your families have roots in a different culture that may have different family expectations than many of us who have posted. This is now a combination of generational, cultural, and religious expectations playing itself out. What makes it especially difficult is that all parties have some amount of good motives and love toward each other as well as mistakes on their hands. (I just read your latest replies which came in while I was writing this, I'll leave this paragraph in though it's redundant now.)

I truly do commend you for doing what you can to reconcile things and still having the desire to do so. You are trying to navigate tension between your husband, your siblings, your parents, in-laws, life-long social circles of friends, and your faith home. Hang in there. Some things in life are worth working for and restored relationships with family and friends are among those. Please take care of yourself spiritually. It's easy to let one's own prayer times, and bible reading slip when under a lot of stress.

I think one of the key things in all of this is your husband. Reading between the lines of what you've written, it sounds like he is a charismatic, talented, hard-working, and energetic person with many good qualities. However, I fear that he has some weak spots that might potentially harm him in the long run and cause a lot of hurt to those around him, including you.

It sounds like your husband is a skilled practitioner of Kung-fu (and xaio kun). I would assume such skill could only come about with much work and dedication to it over many years. I can understand how an exhibition of such skills would be an honorable thing to do to the art of it and respecting those who've been masters and students in the past. But being intoxicated and using one's mastery as a betting challenge against someone (probably of lesser skills)? This gives the impression of either someone who is cruel or someone who is deeply conflicted within.

Has he become bitter about some things? Having passion and strong feelings can be a strength. But, a lack of forgiveness (over something that was a real injury caused by someone else) can slowly rot a person within over time without them realizing it. Bitterness can pervert and misdirect our strengths in bad directions. Some of what you wrote suggests that he has hung onto some things from the past long after it is healthy to do so. If he has indeed become bitter toward his parents or others, this is not something that can be left alone that will take care of itself. If so, it's going to take a conscious act of forgiveness on his part to let go of things from the past and to move forward. Over time, bitterness becomes a habit of feeling and thought. It starts to spill over into more and more areas of one's life. I do not write this as a certainty, only as an impression.

(Please bear with me here, I'll get to the point.) I once lived through the aftermath of a nasty church split. Our understanding is that the pastor and board called for each other's resignations and the congregation split down the middle. It had happened 5 years before we got there, but there was continuing fighting and strife of an unimaginable level. They had gone through 4 pastors in 5 years. The first church business meeting consisted of people literally standing up and yelling at each other with pro-pastor and anti-pastor voting blocs. I once saw an elder (who was a pillar of the church) become so angry at the pastor that veins were literally pulsing in his forehead while he was yelling at him. We tried to make a difference for about 4 years before giving up and leaving. I learned a lot (via the hard way) during this time. In hindsight, what had happened, was that many people had been hurt and felt betrayed during the initial split. They were caught in a power struggle out of their control. A few of them had never forgiven the original pastor and had never dealt with their hurt. As a result, over time, a few of them became so embittered, that they were incapable of ever trusting any pastor again. No pastor is perfect, and there were a few embittered "pillars of the church" who would spend their time talking among each other about every shortcoming and fault of each pastor. They had created a situation where they could never be happy with any pastor again. Bitterness is a horrible thing when it takes root and is allowed to grow. It will contaminate all of the relationships. It will set friends against friends and families against families. It will cause Christians to act in an unChristlike manner and do things they might not otherwise do. It will reach out and suck people in who had nothing to with it before. The scary thing is that bitterness often starts with a justified reaction against an unjustified hurt or injury between a few people. It then can start growing out of control like a cancer.

Again, I respect your love and loyalty toward your family and social group. If the "peer counseling" is from some wise and loving women who have your best interest at heart and do deeply care for you, this could be a positive thing that will help you grow. It might be a chance of forming some new relationships or strengthening old ones. An entire year free of responsibilities of ministry could be a time to focus on personal growth and helping your husband grow. Sometimes God puts us on an enforced vacation or sabbatical for our own benefit.

This whole situation is much more complicated than a "stay at a church" versus "find a new one". Perhaps, you can do some combination of both. You could go to your church on Sunday morning and something else at other times with your husband. Some churches have non-traditional services or small group meetings at times other than Sunday morning. Perhaps you could find a church your husband would like and go with him. It might help him a lot to be able to separate his own spiritual life from his relationships with his parents.

May God grant you wisdom and guidance in your next steps. May He restore and strengthen your ties with those you love. May He grant you peace of mind and spiritual growth. May He reach out and touch your husband and turn him into the man He intends him to be. May He restore love and peace between your husband and his father. In Jesus' Name.
 
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lambkisses

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John 8:2-11

2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11 “No one, sir,” she said.

The scripture doesn't say what Jesus was writing on the ground. Based on the context, the general consensus is that He was listing their sins.
Wow, so that's what that means? I never knew that thanks so much for that. :oldthumbsup:
 
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