Church discipline

[Edwin627]

From what I've read from you it seems like your church has become more about social cliques than christian teaching.

 

[Traveling teacher]

Sister let me sumarize before you get a unanimouse decision from everyone hear:

1st ...we are not there to see everything the last few years and we are not in a position of authority accept to speak on the limited info. We have...
2 nd we dont know all your details....exqctly

Theses are the facts you are telling us:
You and your husband grew up christian...
In this small knit comunity...in this church....
Both your parents ae elders at the church....
Your husband the last few years has turned into a drunkard a rebeler and a fornicator ....
He continues this rebellion adultery and drnkeness....
And instead of repenting he has decided to drop out of church and backslide and turn his back on God....

He used to be a big church leader.....
Now he thinks he is a bigshot in the community makng $$$$ and the elders are concerned he is leading younger kids 10 yr olds and others away from the Lord!!!
He made a committment to you to be a strong christian husband as that is the way he was raised!!!
GOd will hold him accountable to his committment he made to you at the wedding!!!

You havent told us why they are disciplinig you!!!!
So none of us can comment on this!!!!

But back to your husband........
The elders have every right to discipline your husband as they are there to protect the flock.....
And he is leading many astray as he was once a christian and people looked up to him!!!!!
It doesnt matter if you overlook his adultery!!!!
As God will judge the sexually immoral and will not overlook unrepented sin!!!!
1 corinthians 6:18
Do you not know that the sexually imoral shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved neither fornicarors adulterers....shall inherit thekingdom of God...
hebrews 13:4
But fornicators and adulters God will judge......

I had a rebellious daughter for 5 years that was raised everyday in church.....
I went back and forth with the elders at our church until they finally intervened and made some corrective action...
But she was still going to church.......
After they intervened she broke off relationships and stayed in church and has slowly turned her life back to the Lord.........

My qdvice to you is to stop overlloking his sexual immoralty ....this will destroy his soul and destroy your marriage........overlooking this will grant him the right to continue in this behavior.......
Stop blaming the elders at the church as they are tying to do their best....moving to another church is not gonna help either.....
I for one admire his dad for standing up to his son...

Whether his dad knows of his adultery or anyone else or not God does and God is moving on those elders to admonish discipline and correction....

I believe you have an Absolum husband!!!!

There is little the elders can do if your husband has dropped out of church...
But even as an unbeliever he is committed to stay faithful to you as a husband!!!

2 points to sumarize
1. Let God and the elders deal with your husband
2. You hold him accountable for his faithfullness in your marriage.......tell him no more adultery or you are gonna turn his behavior over to the elders...if they dont already know....

I would suggest humbling yourself asking the elders for prayer and praying for God to disciline your husband before he gets a hardened heart and will not turn back to the Lord!!!
Hebrews 12:6
Whom the Lord loves he disciplines

 

[lambkisses]

Sister let me sumarize before you get a unanimouse decision from everyone hear:

1st ...we are not there to see everything the last few years and we are not in a position of authority accept to speak on the limited info. We have...
2 nd we dont know all your details....exqctly

Theses are the facts you are telling us:
You and your husband grew up christian...
In this small knit comunity...in this church....
Both your parents ae elders at the church....
Your husband the last few years has turned into a drunkard a rebeler and a fornicator ....
He continues this rebellion adultery and drnkeness....
And instead of repenting he has decided to drop out of church and backslide and turn his back on God....

He used to be a big church leader.....
Now he thinks he is a bigshot in the community makng $$$$ and the elders are concerned he is leading younger kids 10 yr olds and others away from the Lord!!!
He made a committment to you to be a strong christian husband as that is the way he was raised!!!
GOd will hold him accountable to his committment he made to you at the wedding!!!

You havent told us why they are disciplinig you!!!!
So none of us can comment on this!!!!

But back to your husband........
The elders have every right to discipline your husband as they are there to protect the flock.....
And he is leading many astray as he was once a christian and people looked up to him!!!!!
It doesnt matter if you overlook his adultery!!!!
As God will judge the sexually immoral and will not overlook unrepented sin!!!!
1 corinthians 6:18
Do you not know that the sexually imoral shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved neither fornicarors adulterers....shall inherit thekingdom of God...
hebrews 13:4
But fornicators and adulters God will judge......

I had a rebellious daughter for 5 years that was raised everyday in church.....
I went back and forth with the elders at our church until they finally intervened and made some corrective action...
But she was still going to church.......
After they intervened she broke off relationships and stayed in church and has slowly turned her life back to the Lord.........

My qdvice to you is to stop overlloking his sexual immoralty ....this will destroy his soul and destroy your marriage........overlooking this will grant him the right to continue in this behavior.......
Stop blaming the elders at the church as they are tying to do their best....moving to another church is not gonna help either.....
I for one admire his dad for standing up to his son...

Whether his dad knows of his adultery or anyone else or not God does and God is moving on those elders to admonish discipline and correction....

I believe you have an Absolum husband!!!!

There is little the elders can do if your husband has dropped out of church...
But even as an unbeliever he is committed to stay faithful to you as a husband!!!

2 points to sumarize
1. Let God and the elders deal with your husband
2. You hold him accountable for his faithfullness in your marriage.......tell him no more adultery or you are gonna turn his behavior over to the elders...if they dont already know....

I would suggest humbling yourself asking the elders for prayer and praying for God to disciline your husband before he gets a hardened heart and will not turn back to the Lord!!!
Hebrews 12:6
Whom the Lord loves he disciplines

I think you misunderstand my issue. They are disciplining me as a proxy for him. This is also not my assumption, I we'd told point blank "the party revealed the corrupt, prideful nature of your husband, we voted to subject him to church discipline, you are married to him so you are subject too".
My husband and I have for the most part agreed to disagree about church so he doesn't go any longer. He even requested to be removed from the membership rolls. As such church discipline means NOTHING to him. My church putting him on discipline does as much good as my church putting AL Asad on discipline.
That's the same reason why bringing any of his transgressions up to the elders would be equally ineffective. About the fornication, it is something I know he did in the past, I have no idea if it is still going on but to be truthful it has always been a don't ask don't tell situation. If the church was wanting to discipline for that reason, fine that is fair, but I don't think the party was a valid reason to discipline.

 

[Traveling teacher]

Sister
You have to understand that God knows exactly what your husband is doing.....
If he has broken marriage vows in the past and hasn't repentted he may continue that behavior.........
I know it is difficult but at some point in time you have to ask him about this issue after much prayer...........
Overlooking it will not make it go away but will actually make it worse
Have you talked to anyone else about his adultery...coumselor.......

 

[381465]

I feel so bad for you.

I don't know about your churches policies, but treating you poorly for what they think of him is wrong.

Frankly, I'm not sure how much right they have to judge him based no what it appears they know.

It makes my church issues seem minor and I'm to the point of almost indifference if I attend or not. Basically going because I am supposed to and it's my wife's family church.

Maybe if I knew more about the "discipline" I would feel differently. Treating someone, who has done nothing wrong, like a leper is cruel and misdirected.

 

[SPF]

You need a new Church. You should not be under Church discipline for your husband's actions. Period.

 

[Traveling teacher]

Maybe they know about his carousing and are not telling you
This is a small community people talk??
Ask them
That's what they are there for

Sister overlooking your husbands adultery is not forgiving that is excusing it.......
True love is correction also.....
Sometimes you need tough love....

 

[Phil 1:21]

About the fornication, it is something I know he did in the past, I have no idea if it is still going on but to be truthful it has always been a don't ask don't tell situation.

Perhaps they are disciplining you for being complicit in his behavior.

 

[Nick714]

i would try to find another church with him. there are alot of good people you can meet in the christian community who will welcome you with open arms. aswell as different preachers who would give you another way to look at things. it could be a refreshing experience to try out and if it doesnt work out than the other church will still be there. but you dont need to through the baby out with the bath water. keep in contact with your friends and try to keep time to hang out on the weekend

 

[Padres1969]

From what I've read from you it seems like your church has become more about social cliques than christian teaching.

Indeed, punishing one person for the sins of another appears to be what is occurring here, and it's not biblical. I'd quote them Ezekiel 18:20 and be done with them if they don't relent.

 

[lambkisses]

OK, so I came out of the meeting with the elders, the associated pastors, and the head pastors. In this meeting they went into depth concerning the decision to subject my husband and I to discipline.
As some one else stated, yes the party was the straw that broke the camels back. According to them, this was a long time coming. Furthermore there were several videos shot by different people which served as evidence. In addition to this there were 18 different complaints from 18 different families. This was one of those fruits of the spirit arguments. This is how they broke down each allegation and the supporting evidence.
Corrupt morals: they had a video of his monolog where he states the benefits of being a companion (privilege at work) and how he expects his 6 subordinates to fight for the honor. They say that what my husband was advocating was a blatant abuse of authority.
Extravagance: they argued that the party was too ostentatious and over the top. They claim that we are suppose to be responsible Stewarts of our resources and we squandered them on frivolousness. I rebutted with 1) we spent a total of 500 dollars, and the majority was spent on food (we fed 30 kids and about 70 adults), 2) all the decorations were made of cardboard by my husband's friends, 3)the entertainment was provided free of charge, 4)I reminded my father (who is himself a church elder ) that he initially gave me 300 dollars to pay for a magician. 5) I had nothing to do with the planning of the party, I was pretty much a guest. At that point the questions shifted from why was the party so opulent to why do you two need such a big house fir just the two if you? Why do you two need so many horses? Why do you always eat so well ?
Pridefullness: they said that the fact that he forced new names onto his companions is very unhealthy. And the fact that he named them all after Alexander The Great's companions is troubling. Especially since or church recognizes the Greek king for told in the book of Daniel to be Alexander the great. I told them that my husband doesn't really think he is actually Alexander the great, he is just having fun with his friends. Furthermore I also stated that he didn't name himself. That is when my father in law (also a church elder, got upset at me and accused me of not taking this seriously ). Also they said that six on one xaio kun demonstration (which they have multiple videos of) was more than enough evidence of his Pridefullness.
So I guess they did not view the party as the sweet gesture I thought it was. I reiterated to them that I had absolutely no part in the planning of the party. I told them that I didn't even know the theme of the party until the minute I arrived with everyone else. I expressed how I didn't think it was fair that they were subjecting me to discipline too especially since my husband had actually left the church in December and thus not subject to discipline. That is when my father in law stated that one can't just leave the church and the two of us are still one. That's when they stated that the specific reason I am subject to discipline is because according to them I was encouraging his behavior. I protested that his behavior causes me as much consternation as it does anybody. I more tolerate his excentricities than support them. Also I reminded them that our church teachers that men are spiritual leaders and that the wife is to be submissive in all matters so what do they propose I do? That is when they cued up a video of the party. They said that my "actions at the party"clearly show I support his behavior. I asked them to explain their accusation and they cued up a clip where I am seem cheering during the six on one match. I argued that everyone was cheering and not a single person (including other church members) made any attempt to stop the match. You could even hear other moms in the video whooping and whistling. They said that I was "extra complicit " because near the beginning of the six in one match I started singing the Once Upon A time in China theme and waving a Chinese Nationalist flag. They claimed that the video showed that my husband fought fiercer and more aggressively as I sang and that provoked his best friend to start chanting "KMT KMT".
After they finished laying out all the charges and evidence they got onto the topic of restoration and reconciliation. They said that in order for my husband to receive reconciliation he has to do the following
1)return to church and attend Sunday services
2)commit to a minimum 15% tithe
3)public apology for his behavior and a special apology to the family with whom he has the Tonka truck grudge
3)disband the Companions and shared the gospel with them
4)assist the young man with whom he has the Tonka truck beef with finding employment
5)immediately cease teaching Kung-fu and renounce the xaio kun style (I pointed out that the xaio kun is a family tradition and that maybe they should ask my father in law where my husband learned the technique to begin with)
They said for me to receive reconciliation I need to do one of two things. I could either 1)compel my husband to seek reconciliation (very very unlikely )
Or
2) submit to a year of "women's peer counseling" and be under discipline until the year is complete.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Any one here have any experience with church discipline? And has any one ever heard of subjecting a wife to church discipline due to the actions of her husband?
My husband had pretty much severed ties with or church last December. We both grew up and were married in that church. Although my husband refuses to go and there is much bad blood between him and pretty much every one else there I have continued to attend with my family.
Recently my husband and I threw a medieval times themed birthday party for my nephew and we invited many of my nephew's friends from church plus their parents. The party was amazing, my husband recruited some of his subordinates from work and they decorated, made food and provided live entertainment which culminated in a drunken Kung fu battle (before anyone gets concerned it was a hung gar kung-fu demonstration between my husband abs his subordinates not a brawl between guests) . All the kids had a good time and I figured the parents would be grateful and see that despite any ill will between then and my husband we were all civil enough for the sake of the children. However, the party rekindled many ill feelings that my community of faith had towards my husband. They again were whispering about my husband's corrupt morals, rebellion, pridefulness, ect. The church elders resolved to subject him to church discipline, but the problem is he no longer goes to that (or any church) and thus church discipline means nothing. Seeing as how they are unable to affect him, they are applying the church discipline to me. Their argument is that since we were married in the church we are "one" as such I should be subject to anything my husband would be subject to. Is this fair? It was easy for him to turn his back on or church but it isn't for me. Church was my social circle and now I find myself being restricted from many of the activities of the congregation. I am no longer allowed at many of the social events and I am at a loss of what to do. I understand the purpose of discipline is restoration but what happens in this case where the person whom the discipline is intended does not desire restoration. Does it mean I am going to be denied restoration?

Craaaazy! Punishing you for the things you've never done. Absolutely abhorrent. Your husband is a golden man. Follow him and run away from this mockery of a church.

 

[Clovis Man]

OK, so I came out of the meeting with the elders, the associated pastors, and the head pastors. In this meeting they went into depth concerning the decision to subject my husband and I to discipline.
As some one else stated, yes the party was the straw that broke the camels back. According to them, this was a long time coming. Furthermore there were several videos shot by different people which served as evidence. In addition to this there were 18 different complaints from 18 different families. This was one of those fruits of the spirit arguments. This is how they broke down each allegation and the supporting evidence.
Corrupt morals: they had a video of his monolog where he states the benefits of being a companion (privilege at work) and how he expects his 6 subordinates to fight for the honor. They say that what my husband was advocating was a blatant abuse of authority.
Extravagance: they argued that the party was too ostentatious and over the top. They claim that we are suppose to be responsible Stewarts of our resources and we squandered them on frivolousness. I rebutted with 1) we spent a total of 500 dollars, and the majority was spent on food (we fed 30 kids and about 70 adults), 2) all the decorations were made of cardboard by my husband's friends, 3)the entertainment was provided free of charge, 4)I reminded my father (who is himself a church elder ) that he initially gave me 300 dollars to pay for a magician. 5) I had nothing to do with the planning of the party, I was pretty much a guest. At that point the questions shifted from why was the party so opulent to why do you two need such a big house fir just the two if you? Why do you two need so many horses? Why do you always eat so well ?
Pridefullness: they said that the fact that he forced new names onto his companions is very unhealthy. And the fact that he named them all after Alexander The Great's companions is troubling. Especially since or church recognizes the Greek king for told in the book of Daniel to be Alexander the great. I told them that my husband doesn't really think he is actually Alexander the great, he is just having fun with his friends. Furthermore I also stated that he didn't name himself. That is when my father in law (also a church elder, got upset at me and accused me of not taking this seriously ). Also they said that six on one xaio kun demonstration (which they have multiple videos of) was more than enough evidence of his Pridefullness.
So I guess they did not view the party as the sweet gesture I thought it was. I reiterated to them that I had absolutely no part in the planning of the party. I told them that I didn't even know the theme of the party until the minute I arrived with everyone else. I expressed how I didn't think it was fair that they were subjecting me to discipline too especially since my husband had actually left the church in December and thus not subject to discipline. That is when my father in law stated that one can't just leave the church and the two of us are still one. That's when they stated that the specific reason I am subject to discipline is because according to them I was encouraging his behavior. I protested that his behavior causes me as much consternation as it does anybody. I more tolerate his excentricities than support them. Also I reminded them that our church teachers that men are spiritual leaders and that the wife is to be submissive in all matters so what do they propose I do? That is when they cued up a video of the party. They said that my "actions at the party"clearly show I support his behavior. I asked them to explain their accusation and they cued up a clip where I am seem cheering during the six on one match. I argued that everyone was cheering and not a single person (including other church members) made any attempt to stop the match. You could even hear other moms in the video whooping and whistling. They said that I was "extra complicit " because near the beginning of the six in one match I started singing the Once Upon A time in China theme and waving a Chinese Nationalist flag. They claimed that the video showed that my husband fought fiercer and more aggressively as I sang and that provoked his best friend to start chanting "KMT KMT".
After they finished laying out all the charges and evidence they got onto the topic of restoration and reconciliation. They said that in order for my husband to receive reconciliation he has to do the following
1)return to church and attend Sunday services
2)commit to a minimum 15% tithe
3)public apology for his behavior and a special apology to the family with whom he has the Tonka truck grudge
3)disband the Companions and shared the gospel with them
4)assist the young man with whom he has the Tonka truck beef with finding employment
5)immediately cease teaching Kung-fu and renounce the xaio kun style (I pointed out that the xaio kun is a family tradition and that maybe they should ask my father in law where my husband learned the technique to begin with)
They said for me to receive reconciliation I need to do one of two things. I could either 1)compel my husband to seek reconciliation (very very unlikely )
Or
2) submit to a year of "women's peer counseling" and be under discipline until the year is complete.

I've never heard of a Baptist church doing anything like this. It sounds like something from Amish fiction.

 

[lambkisses]

I've never heard of a Baptist church doing anything like this. It sounds like something from Amish fiction.

Most Baptist churches moved away from church discipline about 40 to 50 years ago. If you notice must Baptist churches also downplay the whole fire and brimstone orthodoxy. As a result some smaller Baptist churches have broken away from the larger conventions. Or church actually broke from the southern Baptist convention about 15 years ago. We call ourself a Baptist church but we are more close to a fundamentalist church.

 

[Traveling teacher]

So what are you gonna do???

I would say your husband taking on. 6 people who have 6" knives while he is drunk is not only dangerous but stupid!!

He could have knocked a knife into an inocent child!!!

Actually looking at this 1 year of womans peer counseling might be good for you and doesnt seem to me to be over the top.........

 

[Clovis Man]

Most Baptist churches moved away from church discipline about 40 to 50 years ago. If you notice must Baptist churches also downplay the whole fire and brimstone orthodoxy. As a result some smaller Baptist churches have broken away from the larger conventions. Or church actually broke from the southern Baptist convention about 15 years ago. We call ourself a Baptist church but we are more close to a fundamentalist church.

That makes it easier to understand some of what's going on. But they still seem awfully harsh.

I suspect there's a bit of Legalism sneaking in here, too.

 

[lambkisses]

So what are you gonna do???

I would say your husband taking on. 6 people who have 6" knives while he is drunk is not only dangerous but stupid!!

He could have knocked a knife into an inocent child!!!

Actually looking at this 1 year of womans peer counseling might be good for you and doesnt seem to me to be over the top.........

It wasn't 6 knives. It was a katana, 2 spears, a fan, an axe and a board why a nail in it.
I am going to pray about what I am going to do. In one hand I wouldn't mind the peer counseling and I would readily submit to that. However I don't know how I feel about the hypocrisy, especially since I know some of the people who complained were whistling and cheering during the showdown as well.

 

[lambkisses]

That makes it easier to understand some of what's going on. But they still seem awfully harsh.

I suspect there's a bit of Legalism sneaking in here, too.

When you say legalism do you mean dogma? Yes it is very harsh, part of the reason we broke from SBC was because leadership thought SBC was too "liberal ". Really they thought SOUTHERN BAPTIST was too liberal.

 

[Clovis Man]

When you say legalism do you mean dogma? Yes it is very harsh, part of the reason we broke from SBC was because leadership thought SBC was too "liberal ". Really they thought SOUTHERN BAPTIST was too liberal.

Not dogma, as I understand dogma. Rather, all law and no gospel.

 

[lambkisses]

Not dogma, as I understand dogma. Rather, all law and no gospel.

Ah I get you. You mean like how Jesus was criticized the lawyer and corrected him with the parable if the good Samaritan?