Church discipline for morbidly obese

[mmksparbud]

Anything is possible. However, it’s exceedingly rare. I’m sorry you have health challenges, but it’s good you are on Christian forums! in Christ, Jeremiah

Thank you. Have always been this way, even when young. Went to boarding school for 2 years. About 7 of us went on this banana and buttermilk diet for one week. Can't remember how much of each we could have a day. It was supervised by one of the Cafeteria Supervisors. There was no way to cheat. At the end of the week we got together, some had lost 3 Lbs, some 5, one lost 7 lbs---me---3/4 of a lb! I am seriously unimpressed with the calorie/exercise ratio theory! We all had gym class and we all walked everywhere. No students had cars. Very large campus near ocean. Actually, it hit with puberty. Before that I have pictures that show me as a normal child. I was always overweight, morbidity hit when I started doing Dialysis in the hospitals instead of the clinic---not exercising as I had been and much longer hours, 100 hour work weeks not uncommon--too tired to do anything else. Then fibro hit, had to work less and less and back with degenerative disks and in neck, had to quite work and was on disability, now just social security. The other techs and I would have breakfast together at this one hospital---there was everybody chowing down. Debbie weighed 95 lbs, soaking wet after breakfast--of hash browns, with gravy on top, 2 eggs, fried, toast with lots of butter and jam, 3 sausages and 4 bacon. Me--bowl of oatmeal with yogurt. Her lunch and dinner were just as heavy. But she was super hyper. I am forever stuck with being around people who eat like a horse and gain little to no weight. Really irks me! In order to maintain a weight of 180 lbs--I exercised like a dog and ate like a bird. Doing the hospitals at work I could not maintain that and, as usual, the lbs came on like a bullet. I am so blessed I can hardly stand it. I mean to have a good long talk with the Lord about this "blessing" one day.

 

[dqhall]

Thank you. Have always been this way, even when young. Went to boarding school for 2 years. About 7 of us went on this banana and buttermilk diet for one week. Can't remember how much of each we could have a day. It was supervised by one of the Cafeteria Supervisors. There was no way to cheat. At the end of the week we got together, some had lost 3 Lbs, some 5, one lost 7 lbs---me---3/4 of a lb! I am seriously unimpressed with the calorie/exercise ratio theory! We all had gym class and we all walked everywhere. No students had cars. Very large campus near ocean. Actually, it hit with puberty. Before that I have pictures that show me as a normal child. I was always overweight, morbidity hit when I started doing Dialysis in the hospitals instead of the clinic---not exercising as I had been and much longer hours, 100 hour work weeks not uncommon--too tired to do anything else. Then fibro hit, had to work less and less and back with degenerative disks and in neck, had to quite work and was on disability, now just social security. The other techs and I would have breakfast together at this one hospital---there was everybody chowing down. Debbie weighed 95 lbs, soaking wet after breakfast--of hash browns, with gravy on top, 2 eggs, fried, toast with lots of butter and jam, 3 sausages and 4 bacon. Me--bowl of oatmeal with yogurt. Her lunch and dinner were just as heavy. But she was super hyper. I am forever stuck with being around people who eat like a horse and gain little to no weight. Really irks me! In order to maintain a weight of 180 lbs--I exercised like a dog and ate like a bird. Doing the hospitals at work I could not maintain that and, as usual, the lbs came on like a bullet. I am so blessed I can hardly stand it. I mean to have a good long talk with the Lord about this "blessing" one day.

I am a 6 ft. man. The most I ever weighed was 192. I repented and dropped to 184. I repented again and dropped to about 174. After kidney stones I read, “Eat to Live,” by Dr. Joel Fuhrman and became a low fat vegan with few a exceptions while at family gatherings. My weight dropped to the low 160’s. At the doctor’s office I once weighed 162 with clothes on. The kidney stones are gone. More recently I modified my diet to allow a small amount of fish each week.

President Bill Clinton had a heart attack in his 50’s. He went to the vegan doctor Dean Ornish. He was on a vegan low-fat diet for five years, then switched to a modified diet that allowed a little healthy fat. He has lived 15 years past his quadruple bypass surgery. He outlived the average bypass patient. Dr Dean Ornish wrote, “Reversing Heart Disease.” The average person gets plaque buildup in the coronary and carotid arteries. In many the vessels become blocked causing a heart attack or stroke.

If you learn to eat nutrient dense foods with plenty of fiber, you might curb your hunger. Some of these are whole grains, beans, lentils, vegetables and whole fruit. Fruit juice has too much sugar without fiber.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Yes, if a person's weight is a problem for them and they ask for help; of course.
That's very different from someone sitting them down and saying "you need to lose weight".



Yes, but again, I don't believe we have the right to interfere unless the person asks for help.



Yes he does, and yes it is - but that would still not give a Minister the right to say, "your weight is a problem, and if it was caused by deliberately over eating; that's a sin."

One reason that the church is so pathetically weak is that leaders won't step up and help their flock when they go astray. Pastors have more than a right, they have a duty. I'm not talking about about just overweight. As the OP said, it's when it's morbid obesity. Morbid means life threatening. The church is the body of Christ and the physical body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. We should be taking care of ourselves.

 

[Strong in Him]

One reason that the church is so pathetically weak is that leaders won't step up and help their flock when they go astray.

It depends how they go astray, and how, or if, the person asks for help.
I had M.E for 18 years, during which time my weight went up, because it didn't occur to me to cut down on food as I wasn't able to get out - and I loved pasta and cheese.
If my Vicar had said to me during that time, "you must watch your weight"; I wouldn't have taken that as a sign of pastoral care, but of interference and judgement.

Pastors have more than a right, they have a duty. I'm not talking about about just overweight.

They have a right and duty to teach about sin, and to challenge the congregation to think about their own lives. They have the right to say "if you want to chat about any of this or ask for prayer, see me afterwards". I don't believe they have the right to say "I notice you're eating too much/not giving enough money to the church/buying too many clothes/not spending enough time reading the Bible" or whatever.
As I said, if they tried, personally I'd go elsewhere - that is the first step to domination/dictatorship.

As the OP said, it's when it's morbid obesity. Morbid means life threatening. T

Yes, but it's their life - and if they can't lose weight for themselves or their families, why would they do it for a Minister?

The church is the body of Christ and the physical body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. We should be taking care of ourselves.

Yes, we should - but we can't force anyone to do anything, and don't have the right to try.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

At the end of the day, weight indicates nothing but weight. When I was 130, I was thin and had crap eating habits. I have a very definite food addiction and even though I was well into a healthy weight bracket, I ate with abandon. When I got up to 140-145, a week of starvation would bring me down to a “healthy“ weight and I’d be back to eating.

Fast forward to now. I watch every nutrient go in, every step taken, I run, I dance, I’m active at work. I’m on Weight Watchers and attend religiously as a means to be accountable for my love of eating. I eat healthier now than I ever have, I have a way better relationship with food, my body, and my mind. That said I weigh 190 now, which is “overweight.” You know what? This is the best I can do, the best my body can do. I was able to knock my weight down to 155 at one point, but frankly it was unsustainable.

The reason I’m 190 and not 290 is because I see food is a struggle of mine and I deal with it through diet and exercise and a heck of a lot of mental work. If I didn’t do it, I’d weigh much, much more. One can look at me and say “she gained 60 pounds, she is fat, she is sinning,” but they’d be wrong... I’m healthier now and treat my body and mind better now than ever. They’d be judging me from ignorance, not helping me, and not helping themselves all that much either.

 

[mmksparbud]

I am a 6 ft. man. The most I ever weighed was 192. I repented and dropped to 184. I repented again and dropped to about 174. After kidney stones I read, “Eat to Live,” by Dr. Joel Fuhrman and became a low fat vegan with few a exceptions while at family gatherings. My weight dropped to the low 160’s. At the doctor’s office I once weighed 162 with clothes on. The kidney stones are gone. More recently I modified my diet to allow a small amount of fish each week.

President Bill Clinton had a heart attack in his 50’s. He went to the vegan doctor Dean Ornish. He was on a vegan low-fat diet for five years, then switched to a modified diet that allowed a little healthy fat. He has lived 15 years past his quadruple bypass surgery. He outlived the average bypass patient. Dr Dean Ornish wrote, “Reversing Heart Disease.” The average person gets plaque buildup in the coronary and carotid arteries. In many the vessels become blocked causing a heart attack or stroke.

If you learn to eat nutrient dense foods with plenty of fiber, you might curb your hunger. Some of these are whole grains, beans, lentils, vegetables and whole fruit. Fruit juice has too much sugar without fiber.

I am rarely hungry. That's one of the odd things. I went vegan for about 2 months---my labs went nuts! I called my friend crying. It's not supposed to work this way. My A1c went sky high also and have not come back down. I had to go on insulin. My labs, even when I was eating meat 3 X a day, showed I was low in protein, it makes no sense---my body never has done anything correctly! Frankly, I'm fed up with it! I had a glass of cherry juice, abut 6 oz, it's supposed to help you sleep, I expected my sugars might go a little high. I'm usually around 220 in the mornings. I was over 300. Gave the juice away. Sometime after Christmas, a friend dropped by with a plateful of cookies, fudge, and brownies---I had not eaten dinner and I kept picking at those stupid cookies, I ate 1/2 the plate!----my sugar in the morning was 220! Really? How is that even possible? I have a pantry full of dried beans--love them, esp garbanzos. I have them all the time. Nobody can figure me out and it's a mute point anymore---I'm in hospice, but I still try to take care of myself. I cut my food consumption in half when I went to the acutes dialysis---I gained weight. I eat 1/2 of what used to in my 30's and weigh twice as much!

 

[Blade]

the short is "their sin issue (gluttony)" there is nothing in the word calling it a SIN. Some that are simply blind think that if your that over weight you just eat and eat aka gluttony. Yet that is farthest from the truth.

And "gluttony" a does not just mean FOOD! We ALL can be and do have gluttony in our own life. So we fix our self 1st then help others. Christ said.. get that beam out of your eye then help take that spec out of your bothers eye. .. depends how we LOOK at this. eyes of love.

 

[NBB]

They need help and incentive to be healthy not discipline i think.

 

[Lady Donna Marie]

Putting people on discipline. For real. So for everyone that takes God's name in vain saying, Oh my God, we should consider to put soap in their mouths. That is probably done more then anything.

The scriptures say to look at the log in our own eye and not the speck in another. We are supposed to be gracious and merciful towards each other. Compassion goes a long way.

I wonder what kind of a church someone comes from to think that we are to govern another person's actions. Scary stuff. Don't feel the love.

 

[Kettriken]

Several things stand out:
Obesity (even morbidly so,) does not require the amount of calorie consumption stated here. The old adage "calories in, calories out," may be true on it's face but is rendered unhelpful, obfuscating, and, dare I say, obsolete by the latest science. Seek pubmed.gov for clear documentation based on scientific literature.
The other issue is that over consumption i.e. gluttony is in most (perhaps all?) cases just a symptom of a primary issue that needs addressing. Would you seek to "discipline" a "fat" sibling in Christ knowing that they self medicated their anxiety with food? Would you tell a brother or sister that they needed to lose weight if you knew that getting pudgy was the only defense they had against a violating family member?
If an individual's cause of excess weight is simply having a few too many snacks or eating the wrong things close to bedtime, then by all means join with them to encourage a healthy pattern of activity and eating, as one would any other lighthearted, godly activity. But if you know, or have no way of knowing, that someone is struggling with an issue more deeply seated than just a predilection for midafternoon hot chocolate, leave it to those closest to them to seek out the underlying causes.
Prayer can go a long way to give you peace.

 

[faroukfarouk]

It depends how they go astray, and how, or if, the person asks for help.
I had M.E for 18 years, during which time my weight went up, because it didn't occur to me to cut down on food as I wasn't able to get out - and I loved pasta and cheese.
If my Vicar had said to me during that time, "you must watch your weight"; I wouldn't have taken that as a sign of pastoral care, but of interference and judgement.



They have a right and duty to teach about sin, and to challenge the congregation to think about their own lives. They have the right to say "if you want to chat about any of this or ask for prayer, see me afterwards". I don't believe they have the right to say "I notice you're eating too much/not giving enough money to the church/buying too many clothes/not spending enough time reading the Bible" or whatever.
As I said, if they tried, personally I'd go elsewhere - that is the first step to domination/dictatorship.



Yes, but it's their life - and if they can't lose weight for themselves or their families, why would they do it for a Minister?



Yes, we should - but we can't force anyone to do anything, and don't have the right to try.

In North America in some places there is a bit of a tradition of 'heavy shepherding', so called. I think this would be quite rare in the UK, right?

 

[faroukfarouk]

Where do you draw the line; "Minister, may I read this book?" "Minister, can I get a tattoo/have my ears pierced?"

FYI, a while ago at the small, conservative local church where my wife and I attend it would probably have been accurate that a majority of the young men and boys happened to wear earrings. It really does beg the question, Why would anyone want to drive them away from a place where they hear the Gospel?

 

[Miles]

People are overweight for a variety of reasons. Gluttony is a one, but it isn't the only possibility. For all we know, someone's weight problem might be due to thyroid issues.

If they're trying to lose weight, and come to your for help, sure, offer advice. I wouldn't offer any unless it's solicited. Appearance can be a touchy subject.

For what it's worth, I'm not overweight. Obesity has never been one of my struggles, but I'd consider it rude if someone tried to discipline me over how I look. It would be counterproductive and off-putting.

 

[Strong in Him]

In North America in some places there is a bit of a tradition of 'heavy shepherding', so called. I think this would be quite rare in the UK, right?

I hope so.
Although one lady came to join our church because in her previous one - independent/Pentecostal/free church - someone had sat down beside her, told her to increase her tithe and wanted to go through her finances with her to see how this could happen.

Don't blame her for leaving.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I hope so.
Although one lady came to join our church because in her previous one - independent/Pentecostal/free church - someone had sat down beside her, told her to increase her tithe and wanted to go through her finances with her to see how this could happen.

Don't blame her for leaving.

I'm sure leaving was a wise thing to do; in any case, I see tithing as strictly and Old Testament thing connected with Levites, although if ppl want to give 10th or more than one 10th voluntarily today that's another matter, but it's not a matter of legal obligation.

 

[Strong in Him]

I'm sure leaving was a wise thing to do; in any case, I see tithing as strictly and Old Testament thing connected with Levites, although if ppl want to give 10th or more than one 10th voluntarily today that's another matter, but it's not a matter of legal obligation.

No.
I think it was more the " you're not giving enough" attitude, along with the intrusion into her personal finances, that she objected to.

Churches will lose members if the leaders get too
prescriptive/domineering.

 

[faroukfarouk]

No.
I think it was more the " you're not giving enough" attitude, along with the intrusion into her personal finances, that she objected to.

Churches will lose members if the leaders get too
prescriptive/domineering.

Sounds like guilt-manipulation..

(Great header text there...)

 

[RickardoHolmes]

I had always wondered why churches that my parents used to force us as kids to attend had so many obese people, especially women. Then I read this
Breaking the Chains : Understanding Religious Addiction and Religious Abuse by Leo Booth: SCP, Limited 9780962328206 Paperback - ThriftBooks


In it, Fr Booth discusses that addictions are interchangeable to some degree, and a food addiction, while not healthy, is a result of an addictive personality in a religious situation. Many religious addicts have food addictions as well. We know that an addictive personality will find something to which will trigger the synapses in the pleasure zones of the brain.
The old idea of a fat woman in church, who is well fed at home, is really a fat woman who is dying for some type of validation, seeking it in religion, and not finding it there, seeking it in food, but gaining weight in the process.

For those of us who reject the concept of "church discipline" our goal is to nurture and help people find healthier ways to build self esteem and self actualization away from addictive behaviors.

 

[Thomas White]

Put simply, the church should not be involved in this at all. Each person has to deal with their sin. It's between that person and God. We don't know what is going on, and it's not our place to question, judge, or label.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Put simply, the church should not be involved in this at all. Each person has to deal with their sin. It's between that person and God. We don't know what is going on, and it's not our place to question, judge, or label.

My guess is that you really didn't mean what you actually posted. To give you an example which I cited on another thread here, there was an infamous gangster in the 1930's who attended a religious revival meeting and professed the Christian faith as a result. However, he continued along happily in his former lifestyle. When confronted about his lifestyle by other Christians, he said that he assuredly did not see any problems with it. After all, there were Christian actors and actresses who did things he himself would not imagine doing. Thus, murder and extortion, in his view, were part and parcel of his Christian faith.

If the church did not take action, then you can be certain that the government did. Personally, I would rather receive the rebuke for my sin from the church than a judge in a courtroom.