Church discipline for morbidly obese

[mmksparbud]

While it is true that some people can have very fast metabolism and problematic heath issues, struggling to keep on weight, this is not so in reverse. Your metabolism can be as slow as a snail and if you eat the daily recommended caloric intake for a human of your age and gender you will never become obese because it’s physically impossible. It’s basic math.

Aside from a few medical exceptions, obese people do not have the required self control over their portion size, meal frequency, and meal content. Even someone who never exercised for a single minute will not become obese if they just eat the normal recommended calorie load. But fat people don’t do that, and their friends and family tell them it’s OK because they have slow metabolisms. In reality it’s not ok, and they are harming their bodies. Never ok to be morbidly obese

Yes, I know that. I was in the hospital X 3 months after colon cancer surgery. I did not wake up from it, I was in a 2 month coma for 2 months, on a ventilator. When I woke up and was informed I'd been in a coma I praised God (with fibro I was afraid I would wake up to a lifetime of re-experiencing my pain from surgical healing) I was virtually healed. I've had several friends who ended up on a ventilator for a month or 2 and they had lost enormous amounts of weight, one, in 2 months had lost 50#. First thing I asked for was to be weighed. In 2 mths---on a severally restricted liquid diet--had lost 18#---I had to spend the next month in rehab, learning how to sit up in bed, then eventually to stand and to get back into my wheel chair. The first time I stood on my feet was for 30 seconds and it was hard, I was shaking all over! I exercised as much as possible to get my strength back, and physical therapy told me what to do. I was slowly (achingly slowly) able to eat a little---at the end of the month I had lost a whopping 5#. I can't tell you how unimpressed I was.

 

[Dave L]

Many are concerned about the Mark of the Beast. But we should be equally concerned about the Mark of the Feast.

 

[Strong in Him]

Hello,
I’m sure to get flamed hard for this post but I don’t care because it’s important to me and my family.

for the purposes of clarity in this thread I am asking regarding morbidly obese people. This is loosely defined by medical community as someone approximately 100 pounds over their ideal body weight. For example, a 6 foot 30 year old male who weights 275-300 pounds, with the majority of the excess weight being fat (and not muscle). This is not just overweight or “fat” Christians who could use to lose 10-20 pounds to be more healthy.

I believe that in such cases the elders of the church need to work with the morbidly obese individual to address their sin issue (gluttony).

How do you know that their "sin" is gluttony?

If someone is using food to block out emotional pain, or eating because they have low self esteem and don't care what they look like, or - as in one case I read about - are eating so that their abusive husband won't fancy them anymore; by all means ask the Minister/elders to offer counsel and/or support.
But if they have always been given big meals by a woman who believes that food is her way of showing love to her family, and if they have always been told/made to clear their plates, as otherwise they are rejecting that love and being wasteful - it's harder to deal with.

A person should lose weight for themselves, not anyone else - and I don't think that a Minister saying "you must do this" will make them want to start.

Hello,
If they are willing to address the issue and repent, take steps to overcome, that is ideal. If the person refuses to acknowledge the sin, I think that church discipline procedures should be implemented in order to lead to possible repentance.

Why?
A person's sin is between themselves and God - unless it is a public sin which affects the church family, like running off with another member's wife/husband. What did Jesus say - "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". The only person there that day who was without sin was Jesus himself - and he did not condemn the lawbreaker.
If they feel it's any of their business, the Minister could tell the Lord they are worried about someone's weight and ask him to convict that person, or minister to them and heal the problem.
Then they should let God do his work in that person's life - which he is quite capable of doing without any outside interference.

Hello,
Obviously this needs to be done in love and by elder agreement in extreme cases, not fat shaming etc.

Someone who judges obesity without knowing the facts or what lead to overeating, IS fat shaming - and being nosy, imo.

I also think if someone is giving themselves diabetes and other health issues from the overeating they need to be called out privately by other believers

If they are giving themselves diabetes and health issues they will no doubt have been "called out" by their doctors already - who will offer medical support and a safe way of losing weight. If the person can't lose weight when they know it is ruining their health, possibly preventing pregnancy or leading to an early death, it's unlikely they will do it because a church Minister says they "should".

 

[Chris V++]

.

I believe that in such cases the elders of the church need to work with the morbidly obese individual to address their sin issue (gluttony). If they are willing to address the issue and repent, take steps to overcome, that is ideal. If the person refuses to acknowledge the sin, I think that church discipline procedures should be implemented in order to lead to possible repentance.

Obviously this needs to be done in love and by elder agreement in extreme cases, not fat shaming etc.

.

Offering counseling, weight watchers. exercise groups, education etc. is one thing, but church discipline? My gut reaction is 'how appalling."

 

[Aussie Pete]

Yes plus there is much more christ love in your words than mine on this topic I fear. My heart is to help people see they aren’t trapped in this sad and horrible physical issue like they think. I think it’s because I spent 10 years being obese and unhealthy and it dragged me down physically and emotionally and spiritually and when the Lord delivered me from it and I lost all the weight I can see more clearly the lie in all of this. Because it’s important that Christians understand this stuff is from the devil. Something that gives us diabetes, heart issues, energy issues, and kills us prematurely is not from God. Obesity is actually from Satan and he has a chokehold on the Christians in my country who are passive on the issue...but I still think I was too harsh

I understand your concerns also. I had to watch my friend, one of the most active guys I've known, suffer great physical troubles that could have been avoided. But I also know that God works all things for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

God is amazing. When I met my friend, he was a (gasp) smoker. I had a really negative attitude to smoking. The Lord led me to this man because he was to be the mentor that I needed. "But he smokes!" said I, but silently. The Lord said to me that its not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man. He went on to say that the words people speak are far more offensive to Him than cigarette smoke. That rather put me back in my box. I also found out that Charles Spurgeon smoked cigars, which I loath.

Again God had a purpose in my friend smoking and when that was done, he was delivered instantly. He never suffered any ailment related to smoking.

There is no "one size fits all" Christianity. It would be so much easier if there was!

 

[Isilwen]

Have you ever seen any very old obese person? Its practically impossible.

Actually, yes. Over 75 and she weighed 440 pounds.

I'm an EMT, I see things the public may not.

 

[mindlight]

Hello,
I’m sure to get flamed hard for this post but I don’t care because it’s important to me and my family.

for the purposes of clarity in this thread I am asking regarding morbidly obese people. This is loosely defined by medical community as someone approximately 100 pounds over their ideal body weight. For example, a 6 foot 30 year old male who weights 275-300 pounds, with the majority of the excess weight being fat (and not muscle). This is not just overweight or “fat” Christians who could use to lose 10-20 pounds to be more healthy.

I believe that in such cases the elders of the church need to work with the morbidly obese individual to address their sin issue (gluttony). If they are willing to address the issue and repent, take steps to overcome, that is ideal. If the person refuses to acknowledge the sin, I think that church discipline procedures should be implemented in order to lead to possible repentance.

Obviously this needs to be done in love and by elder agreement in extreme cases, not fat shaming etc.

remember, in order to maintain morbid obesity status, even with health issues you have to consume VAST amounts of calories, 5000-7000, we are talking four pizzas and a dozen eggs and two loafs of bread and twelve pounds of bacon a day levels...


I also think if someone is giving themselves diabetes and other health issues from the overeating they need to be called out privately by other believers but that’s more sensitive and I havnt thought through it as much.

It is a myth that all fat people are lazy gluttons who eat too much and exercise too little. Mainly this is a crisis of stewardship and a failure of intelligence.

In practice everybody has a different metabolism and some people can do a whole load more with a calorie than others and therefore need less. You need to know yourself. I eat quite a lot but with exercise keep my weight down to 200 pounds which at 6,3 is right on the line between healthy and overweight.

Personally I see this whole fat and health management thing as a balance between 3 budgets:

1) EXERCISE - My main sports these days are triathlon training and weights. The extra muscle the weights gives means that my body is burning more calories even when lying on the couch. Keeping a high muscle to fat ratio means that you can eat more without getting fat. But the budgeting thing here is about motivation and time. Do too much exercise and eventually you lose interest , do too little and you never really get into it and can get injured when you do.

2) DIET - the main thing here is balancing what you eat with what you burn. But so also the type of food you eat needs to balance carbs, proteins and vitamins. Fresh fruit and veg is always good. Also when you eat apparently makes a difference. Sit-down meals are good and snacking bad.

3) SLEEP - this is the one that is overlooked in weight management. But your body has its own mechanisms for dealing with its own problems and inadequate sleep or disrupted sleep cycles can do bad things to appetite and weight loss and for the bodies own management of imbalances in your systems.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Offering counseling, weight watchers. exercise groups, education etc. is one thing, but church discipline? My gut reaction is 'how appalling."

How do you know that their "sin" is gluttony?

If someone is using food to block out emotional pain, or eating because they have low self esteem and don't care what they look like, or - as in one case I read about - are eating so that their abusive husband won't fancy them anymore; by all means ask the Minister/elders to offer counsel and/or support.
But if they have always been given big meals by a woman who believes that food is her way of showing love to her family, and if they have always been told/made to clear their plates, as otherwise they are rejecting that love and being wasteful - it's harder to deal with.

A person should lose weight for themselves, not anyone else - and I don't think that a Minister saying "you must do this" will make them want to start.



Why?
A person's sin is between themselves and God - unless it is a public sin which affects the church family, like running off with another member's wife/husband. What did Jesus say - "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". The only person there that day who was without sin was Jesus himself - and he did not condemn the lawbreaker.
If they feel it's any of their business, the Minister could tell the Lord they are worried about someone's weight and ask him to convict that person, or minister to them and heal the problem.
Then they should let God do his work in that person's life - which he is quite capable of doing without any outside interference.



Someone who judges obesity without knowing the facts or what lead to overeating, IS fat shaming - and being nosy, imo.



If they are giving themselves diabetes and health issues they will no doubt have been "called out" by their doctors already - who will offer medical support and a safe way of losing weight. If the person can't lose weight when they know it is ruining their health, possibly preventing pregnancy or leading to an early death, it's unlikely they will do it because a church Minister says they "should".

Like it or not, the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Christians need to be exhorted to at least be aware that their bodies are important. Name and shame is not the answer, but neither is denial that there is a problem. One of our fellowship lost about 100 pounds in six months. It was amazing. The physical was reflected in his spiritual state also.

One great help is regular fasting. One of our fellowship fasts twice a week. It's for spiritual well-being mostly but one side effect is that he finds it easier to keep his weight under control.

 

[Chris V++]

One of our fellowship lost about 100 pounds in six months. It was amazing. The physical was reflected in his spiritual state also.

Did you send a posse to his house on a week night to grease the wheels with tough love? Did you threaten to kick him out if he didn't conform his body to His image?

What do you mean "Like it or not?" That's a loaded way to bring it, implying objecting to the OP proposition is tantamount to rejecting the second half of your statement.

Why stop at obesity? Make sure we discipline the guys with the pony tails and the gals with braided hair. There are easy remedies for those particular offences.

 

[marineimaging]

Hello,
I’m sure to get flamed hard for this post but I don’t care because it’s important to me and my family.

for the purposes of clarity in this thread I am asking regarding morbidly obese people. This is loosely defined by medical community as someone approximately 100 pounds over their ideal body weight. For example, a 6 foot 30 year old male who weights 275-300 pounds, with the majority of the excess weight being fat (and not muscle). This is not just overweight or “fat” Christians who could use to lose 10-20 pounds to be more healthy.

I believe that in such cases the elders of the church need to work with the morbidly obese individual to address their sin issue (gluttony). If they are willing to address the issue and repent, take steps to overcome, that is ideal. If the person refuses to acknowledge the sin, I think that church discipline procedures should be implemented in order to lead to possible repentance.

Obviously this needs to be done in love and by elder agreement in extreme cases, not fat shaming etc.

remember, in order to maintain morbid obesity status, even with health issues you have to consume VAST amounts of calories, 5000-7000, we are talking four pizzas and a dozen eggs and two loafs of bread and twelve pounds of bacon a day levels...


I also think if someone is giving themselves diabetes and other health issues from the overeating they need to be called out privately by other believers but that’s more sensitive and I havnt thought through it as much.

I was one of those who was medically morbidly obese and I can tell you that I did NOT eat 5000-7000 calories or VAST amounts of anything. 6ft male, firefighter, outdoorsman, averaging around 205 -225 from the time I was 18 until 54 when I had a heart attack and post operative infection, not from bad diet but from smoking. That very day I quit smoking but I could no longer exercise Like I used to and due to the heat and humidity of SE Texas I took an office position. I ballooned to 275 seemingly overnight, yet I passed up every fattening thing that came my way. I even tried eating one meal per day until it made me ill. Then, I moved to the mountains of Colorado and just by being able to get outside and away from the desk I lost 45 lbs within 3 months. I did not change diet nor did I start smoking again. Just living outside made the difference. So, eating is not the only culprit because you can consume calories... IF you burn them off. Be active, one step at a time like I had to. Be productive, don't just walk around a mall. Walk to a church. Walk to a friends and help them with something that makes you burn calories. Make your burning productive. Eat healthy.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I'm not sure discipline on this matter is the right way to go about it.

It would be nice to see a developed theology of the body. This is something I've thought about with my struggle with weight and is something I still think about.

I can look at myself naked in the mirror and ask am I the image of a man, or the parody of one? This is but one motivating factor, other being wanting to be aesthetically pleasing to someone I might love. The third consideration would be that if my body is a temple, should I not treat it right?

In my experience people don't want to lose weight until they are personally motivated to do so. Church discipline is a touchy subject these days where it seems we can no longer discipline anyone in Church and It might be too hard to start doing so immediately.

What I would like to see is the images of Saints being pointed to, Jesus's example being pointed to. Men and women who gave up food not out of hatred for it because they were not dominated by it. Obese people need to first admit their slavery to their desire to eat before any discipline can be asked of them.

 

[Strong in Him]

Like it or not, the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

I know.
But the upkeep and maintenance of that temple is between the person, their doctors and the Lord - it's not for a Minister to say, "you're too fat/too thin" or anything else.

Christians need to be exhorted to at least be aware that their bodies are important.

Teaching from the pulpit or in a Bible study, maybe. An individual might be convicted when they hear what the Bible says, and they will them make changes because they want to.
Individual judgement that a person's shape is wrong; no.

Name and shame is not the answer, but neither is denial that there is a problem.

Yes, but it's not really any of their business - unless the obese person confides in the Minister that they are unhappy and needs help or support. Even then, they may only feel happy to offer prayer support.
I don't know what it's like where you are, but no one that I know of goes for ordination expecting to have the right to comment on someone's weight.

One of our fellowship lost about 100 pounds in six months. It was amazing. The physical was reflected in his spiritual state also.

That sounds great and I'm sure he felt better for it.
That doesn't mean that the Minister had the right to tell him, if he did, to go and lose weight.

One great help is regular fasting.

There is a difference between fasting for health reasons and fasting for spiritual reasons.
Fasting for spiritual reasons is about going without food so that you can spend the time that you would have spent shopping, cooking and eating, in prayer. It may also focus the mind on God - though if it were me, I'd spend so long thinking about food and trying to resist the urge to give in, any benefits would be lost.

I'm not against people losing weight - I've lost a lot myself. I just don't think it is the business of the church ministry/leadership team to sit someone down and tell them.

 

[Chris V++]

Church discipline is a touchy subject these days where it seems we can no longer discipline anyone in Church and It might be too hard to start doing so immediately.

Wasn't church discipline intended to be used in situations where members remained unrepentant in practices like witchcraft, or adultery and overt sexual immorality, spreading false doctrines, or spousal abuse? For the small stuff wasn't confession and penance was the practice.
I used to attend a church where the pastor and a few men confronted a guy for abandoning his family, trying to encourage him to do the right thing. The wife had approached them for help. This seems more like the intended purpose of church discipline, and it still goes on today.

 

[HappyHope]

Hello,
I’m sure to get flamed hard for this post but I don’t care because it’s important to me and my family.

for the purposes of clarity in this thread I am asking regarding morbidly obese people. This is loosely defined by medical community as someone approximately 100 pounds over their ideal body weight. For example, a 6 foot 30 year old male who weights 275-300 pounds, with the majority of the excess weight being fat (and not muscle). This is not just overweight or “fat” Christians who could use to lose 10-20 pounds to be more healthy.

I believe that in such cases the elders of the church need to work with the morbidly obese individual to address their sin issue (gluttony). If they are willing to address the issue and repent, take steps to overcome, that is ideal. If the person refuses to acknowledge the sin, I think that church discipline procedures should be implemented in order to lead to possible repentance.

Obviously this needs to be done in love and by elder agreement in extreme cases, not fat shaming etc.

remember, in order to maintain morbid obesity status, even with health issues you have to consume VAST amounts of calories, 5000-7000, we are talking four pizzas and a dozen eggs and two loafs of bread and twelve pounds of bacon a day levels...


I also think if someone is giving themselves diabetes and other health issues from the overeating they need to be called out privately by other believers but that’s more sensitive and I havnt thought through it as much.

Some research is showing how heightened insulin levels with constant food intake spikes appetite. So those with excess insulin from overeating tend to stay feeling hungry because their excess food intake won't allow insulin levels to recede. So the bigger you are, the hungrier you feel. Depressing right? I've so been there. Prayers for those who suffer in there area.

I would recommend intermittent fasting for its many health benefits. Something like 16:8 or 20:4 or eat every other day for a time. I would not recommend private church discipline because where do you draw the line? Selfie addictions? Poor parenting? Netflix binging? Brow beating spouses? Perhaps well developed sermons and programs like celebrate recovery or other counseling programs are advisable but not church discipline. Because if people's excess in one area is open to church discipline then everyone's excess in everything is open for church discipline. Plus, tailored counseling programs show more empathy and I would argue help more.

 

[Robin Mauro]

Exercise can increase hunger and thus be counterproductive. Reducing calories is the best, and safest, way to lose weight.

No, exercise is crucial. It creates endorphines and makes people strong. It actually helps one overcome unhealthy food desires.
But we should not be too judgemental, for all have sinned, fst is just an easy one to see.

 

[Robin Mauro]

Hello,
I’m sure to get flamed hard for this post but I don’t care because it’s important to me and my family.

for the purposes of clarity in this thread I am asking regarding morbidly obese people. This is loosely defined by medical community as someone approximately 100 pounds over their ideal body weight. For example, a 6 foot 30 year old male who weights 275-300 pounds, with the majority of the excess weight being fat (and not muscle). This is not just overweight or “fat” Christians who could use to lose 10-20 pounds to be more healthy.

I believe that in such cases the elders of the church need to work with the morbidly obese individual to address their sin issue (gluttony). If they are willing to address the issue and repent, take steps to overcome, that is ideal. If the person refuses to acknowledge the sin, I think that church discipline procedures should be implemented in order to lead to possible repentance.

Obviously this needs to be done in love and by elder agreement in extreme cases, not fat shaming etc.

remember, in order to maintain morbid obesity status, even with health issues you have to consume VAST amounts of calories, 5000-7000, we are talking four pizzas and a dozen eggs and two loafs of bread and twelve pounds of bacon a day levels...


I also think if someone is giving themselves diabetes and other health issues from the overeating they need to be called out privately by other believers but that’s more sensitive and I havnt thought through it as much.

P.S. And I'd much rather have a fat friend than a mean fiend, a lying friend, a cheating friend, an unreliable friend, an abusive friend, a back-stabbing friend...
I'd rather have a fat friend than one caught in most other sins.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I know.
But the upkeep and maintenance of that temple is between the person, their doctors and the Lord - it's not for a Minister to say, "you're too fat/too thin" or anything else.



Teaching from the pulpit or in a Bible study, maybe. An individual might be convicted when they hear what the Bible says, and they will them make changes because they want to.
Individual judgement that a person's shape is wrong; no.



Yes, but it's not really any of their business - unless the obese person confides in the Minister that they are unhappy and needs help or support. Even then, they may only feel happy to offer prayer support.
I don't know what it's like where you are, but no one that I know of goes for ordination expecting to have the right to comment on someone's weight.



That sounds great and I'm sure he felt better for it.
That doesn't mean that the Minister had the right to tell him, if he did, to go and lose weight.



There is a difference between fasting for health reasons and fasting for spiritual reasons.
Fasting for spiritual reasons is about going without food so that you can spend the time that you would have spent shopping, cooking and eating, in prayer. It may also focus the mind on God - though if it were me, I'd spend so long thinking about food and trying to resist the urge to give in, any benefits would be lost.

I'm not against people losing weight - I've lost a lot myself. I just don't think it is the business of the church ministry/leadership team to sit someone down and tell them.

The church is not a collection of individuals living as they please. The real church is the body of Christ. What we do and how we live impacts everyone who is the church. We should be living in unity, working together and helping each other out when there are problems. Of course, this is as rare as hens teeth these days.

A lot of Christians have deep down issues of guilt and shame that they cover up by overeating. Some are just weak willed and refuse to allow the Holy Spirit to be their self control. Some have health issues that increase their weight. The utter stupidity of the world's dietary advice is also to blame. The explosion in obesity follows the low fat/no fat obsession almost exactly.

The causes are many. It is a real problem. I don't believe that it should be ignored. God knows the answers and real help is available. And no, just telling people they should lose weight is not the answer.

 

[redleghunter]

We must begin sooner, regular checks of BMI for everybody in the church and when it will get too high, they should be publicly punished with running around the church building.

Sounds like a joke. But hey why not have Bible small groups have each member sign sworn statements they are not watching inappropriate content and living together out of wedlock.

Why not be like a gulag.

 

[redleghunter]

I havnt thought through it as much.

Clearly.

 

[redleghunter]

Should the elders keep you informed on who they are working with and how it is going so they can be sure it's handled properly?

Frankly all I need from the elders and pastor is that someone has a struggle and needs our prayers. Other than that let the pastors shepherd the flock. I don’t need details on someone’s moral failings as we all have one or a few.

When it gets to church discipline and restoration then yes the entire church should be involved and mainly in prayer and love.