Church Age

mlepfitjw

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Hello DaveM. I personally believe that 'churches' have continued throughout all different generations since the old testament. Going to 'church', being part of a 'church group' in the modern age is no different than what was in the old testament. It seems there will never be an 'end' to to 'churches' because this world will go on even after our death.

What interest do you have in the 'church age'? What does that mean to you?
 
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Rachel20

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Here is my view:

Salvation has always been by grace through Christ. Job spoke of his redeemer, Abraham longed to see his day, etc... The church age is a gentile dispensation between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel. It will end and God will turn back to Israel (Romans 11:25). Note in Daniel 9:24-27 that the 70 weeks, which includes the final week with its Great Tribulation, are a period of time determined "upon" Daniel's people and their holy city (v24). Daniel was a Jew, his people are Jews. Their holy city is Jerusalem. The final week will result in the remnant of national Israel calling to, and confessing, Jesus the true Messiah. This in turn will result in Jesus return (second coming, not rapture). Note the "till"s in the verses below - they are a prerequisite for the Lord's return (explains why Satan still fights though defeated at the cross):

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Matthew 23:37-39

I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early. Hosea 5:15
 
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DaveM

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The church age is a gentile dispensation between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel.

HI Rachel I appreciate your reply, here a couple questions that come to mind

I have herd a lot of preachers say that, but do you have scripture to support it?

because it seems to me Jesus tells us the hour of trial that is to test the whole world he does not say just the Jews

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.
 
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Mr. M

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How can the church age end before the tribulation? if during the tribulation the only way to be saved is no different then before the tribulation through Jesus.

isn't the very definition of the church age = salvation through Jesus
This may be relevant.

Revelation 14:
6
Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel
to preach to those who dwell on the earth
—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—
7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment
has come
; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.
 
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Rachel20

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because it seems to me Jesus tells us the hour of trial that is to test the whole world he does not say just the Jews

The whole world will be tested, yes, and Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26). It's the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7) and Daniel 9:24 gives the purpose. Though gentiles can be saved during this time, they are not part of the church, to which the Holy Spirit is given without repentance (remember King Saul, from whom the Spirit was taken 1 Samuel 16:14).

A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. (Jeremiah 25:31)
 
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Rachel20

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are you saying the Jews dont have to repent ?

No, not at all. Repentance basically means changing ones mind or being sorry for something, and doesn't always involve sin. Example: it repented God he had made man upon the earth and it grieved him (Genesis 6:6). So I was using it in this way - we're sealed for redemption by the Holy Spirit and he will not change his mind or take his spirit from us (it will not repent God he saved us, nor will he take his Spirit from his church whereby we are sealed Ephesians 4:30).
 
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DaveM

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Though gentiles can be saved during this time, they are not part of the church,

are you saying the church does not go through the trib??

are you suggesting when a person comes to Chirst if he is Jewish he is not part of the church?
 
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DaveM

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tribulation has been going on since the fall of mankind.

yes but I am talking about this part of history, as which has not played out yet, I was seeking to see wear you stood on the timing of the rapture :)

Revelation 9:15
So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind.
 
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eleos1954

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yes but I am talking about this part of history, as which has not played out yet, I was seeking to see wear you stood on the timing of the rapture :)

Revelation 9:15
So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind.

yes but I am talking about this part of history, as which has not played out yet,

or perhaps it has .....

Here “four angels” are described as being “loosed” to slay “the third part of men.” Protestant Historicists applied this to “the third part” of the Roman Empire, that is, to its eastern portion, centered in Constantinople. The period, “an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year,” they interpreted based on the day-for-a-year principle (see Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6). In doing the math, we discover that “a day” is 1 year, “a year” is 360 years (based on 360 days in a Jewish calendar year), “a month” is 30 years (based on 30 days in a Jewish month), and “an hour” is 15 days (1/24th of a 24-hour day, and 1/24th of 360 days).

360 years + 30 years + 1 year + 15 days = 391 years and 15 days.

Can we find a fulfillment for this period? Yes, we can!

The previous “five months” (or 150-year period), predicted in the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:10) began when Ottoman the Turk became the first “king” (see Revelation 9:11) over the disorganized Islamic countries, uniting them under one central government. That period extended from July 27, 1299, to July 27, 1449. During those 150 years, Turkish Islam sought to “slay” (or eliminate) the eastern sovereignty of a “third” of the Roman Empire, but was unable to do so. It could only “hurt” (Revelation 9:10). Four years later, on May 29, 1453, Constantinople fell to the Turks.

Prior to this, on the exact date noted – July 27, 1449 – the Greek Emperor, Constantine XIII, acknowledged that he no longer ruled by his own authority, but by consent of the Turks. In other words, his sovereignty was over. Now do the math. 391 years and 15 days starting from July 27, 1449 leads to August 11, 1840. Based on what happened July 27, 1449, historicist prophecy students in the 1830s publicly proclaimed before the event occurred that on August 11, 1840, the independence of the Ottoman sultans ruling in Constantinople would cease.

Amazingly, that’s exactly what happened. On “Aug. 11, 1840, the very day to which the time marked in the prophecy continued … the authority of the Turkish Empire passed into the hands of the Powers of Europe [Britain, Russia, Austria, and Prussia]”
 
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Rachel20

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are you saying the church does not go through the trib??

There are multiple rapture-timing theories. I lean toward pre-tribulation, for many reasons. I see the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2 being the Holy Spirit as indwelt in the church, so that his being "taken out of the way" in order that Antichrist might be revealed is a picture of the rapture. In Revelation, John is told to write the things he has seen (chap 1), the things that are (the churches in chap 2-3), and the things that shall be (rise of antichrist, tribulation, etc...) - the rapture of the church is pictured in the "come up hither" of chap 4, placed conspicuously between the church and the rise of antichrist, aligning perfectly with 2 Thess 2. Also, there's a clue as to the identity of those saints killed during the tribulation in Revelation 6:9-11 as they are seen crying out to the "avenger of blood" which harks back to Deuteronomy 19:20, is a Jewish law, and is the responsibility of a Jewish kinsman, usually the nearest male relative. Jesus, who came as a Jew, will fulfill that responsibility.

are you suggesting when a person comes to Chirst if he is Jewish he is not part of the church?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm a dispensationalist, so I'm only referring to a dispensation. All saved during this dispensation are part of the church - Greek or Jew, circumcision or uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond or free (Colossians 3:11) But all who are saved, regardless of the dispensation, are saved by grace through Christ Jesus. So here is a verse to ponder, and ask yourself why John [the Baptist] didn't consider himself part of the bride, but rather a friend of the groom:

He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. John 3:29
 
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DaveM

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So here is a verse to ponder, and ask yourself why John [the Baptist] didn't consider himself part of the bride, but rather a friend of the groom:

He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. John 3:29

HI Rachel thanks for you reply, the church had not yet happened
, Jesus did not start building his church until he said to Peter on this rock I will build my church. Prior to Jesus rising and conquering death all people who died went to Abraham bosom . Now we go to heaven.
In short JB was before the church age IMO
 
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Rachel20

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HI Rachel thanks for you reply, the church had not yet happened
, Jesus did not start building his church until he said to Peter on this rock I will build my church. Prior to Jesus rising and conquering death all people who died went to Abraham bosom . Now we go to heaven.
In short JB was before the church age IMO

Yes, I agree. But I believe further that, just as the "church" had a definite beginning, it will have a definite end. It was the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham that "in thee shall all nations be blessed" :)
 
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Hazelelponi

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How can the church age end before the tribulation? if during the tribulation the only way to be saved is no different then before the tribulation through Jesus.

isn't the very definition of the church age = salvation through Jesus

Even those in the old testament are saved by Grace through faith in Christ:

He Descended into Hell?

Therefore, the church age is actually the age where we are under the Covenant of Grace through faith in Jesus.
 
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DaveM

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