Christ's Death

Gary O'

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Need some biblical help

I read this in The Desire of Ages;

Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father's mercy and pardoning love. Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt.

pg 753


I need biblical texts to support these words
pointedly, that Jesus died the eternal death

Not knowing if he would be risen

Thank you
 

Mark Quayle

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Need some biblical help

I read this in The Desire of Ages;

Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father's mercy and pardoning love. Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt.

pg 753


I need biblical texts to support these words
pointedly, that Jesus died the eternal death

Not knowing if he would be risen

Thank you
I don't even read in those words that he didn't know if he would be risen! He knew. But the dramatic prose sounds more speculation than accuracy. It has many elements of truth though.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Need some biblical help

I need biblical texts to support these words
pointedly, that Jesus died the eternal death

Not knowing if he would be risen

Thank you

He knew He would rise...
 
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Mr. M

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Not knowing if he would be risen
John 10:
17
Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and
I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.
 
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Gary O'

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Isaiah 53

THAT'S what I was looking for!

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

See, if He knew for sure He he would rise again, then it's all pretty much a charade

But

If he died, from withdrawal of The Father, dying the eternal death, then it makes sense

Isaiah 5:3 coupled with Matthew 27:46;

“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matt. 27:46, KJV).

Thank you
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Thank you for your opinion

I need texts

Yes, he prophesied about rising, and quoted scripture
But
When all was said and done.....did he know

Destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in 3 days...
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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See, if He knew for sure He he would rise again, then it's all pretty much a charade

But

If he died, from withdrawal of The Father, dying the eternal death, then it makes sense

Isaiah 5:3 coupled with Matthew 27:46;

“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matt. 27:46, KJV).

Thank you

Why do you say it was a charade? Did Abraham abandon Isaac? The Father never abandoned Yeshua...
 
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Gary O'

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Why do you say it was a charade? Did Abraham abandon Isaac? The Father never abandoned Yeshua...
It would be a charade because he knew he'd rise again

'Father, why hast thou forsaken me'
Sounds pretty abandoned to me

He died thee death
The one where God is not present

Abraham would have slain Isaac

Look, not here to argue opinion

If you can't help me, that's OK
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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It would be a charade because he knew he'd rise again

'Father, why hast thou forsaken me'
Sounds pretty abandoned to me

He died thee death
The one where God is not present

Abraham would have slain Isaac

Look, not here to argue opinion

If you can't help me, that's OK

No, He was just quoting the prophesy. God is ALWAYS present.
 
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Gary O'

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No, He was just quoting the prophesy. God is ALWAYS present.

Quoting the prophesy???

really

Again, your opinion
and quite skewed

I thought this was the SDA forum
Where's the SDAs?
I need some posts with content
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Quoting the prophesy???

really

Again, your opinion
and quite skewed

How is it skewed...you are implying that God somehow can't be there for some reason...He felt abandoned and alone on the cross, like David in the Psalm.
 
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BobRyan

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Need some biblical help

I read this in The Desire of Ages;

Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father's mercy and pardoning love. Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt.

pg 753


I need biblical texts to support these words
pointedly, that Jesus died the eternal death

Not knowing if he would be risen

Thank you

Ok first - your question about Christ as our atoning Sacrifice paying our debt of sin (I love this topic) -- thanks for asking ! :)

Good question.

Jesus paid "our debt" of the 2nd death (we all die our own first death) ..

Isaiah 53

5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
...
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
...
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.

1 John 2:2 NIV
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

In God's system each sin has its own specific amount of torment and suffering due -- so some folks get many lashes of torment at the 2nd death and others "less" - depending on what they knew and did.

Luke 12
45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Our "Certificate of debt" - the payment owed (like the speeding ticket with the fine specified) - is what is nailed to the cross.

Col 2: 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

The "debt" consists of exact fines/decrees against us for each sin -- specifying the exact amount of torment and suffering owed for each one given our circumstances.


2 Cor 5
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Rom 8:
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
======================

When the wicked are confronted with the lake of fire "second death" in Rev 20 -- it will not be a bunch of angry Roman soldiers standing there to punish the wicked.. it will not be Jews ready to condemn them... rather it will be the suffering and torment owed in the literal lake of fire and brimstone.

It is that supernatural torment owed - that was paid in full by Christ.
 
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As for what Christ "knew" - Christ during His ministry pointed out that He would be crucified and then raised again on the third day.

But He had applied limits to Himself as the incarnate Son of God as Phil 2 points out "emptied Himself".

In Matt 24:36 He shows an example of this voluntary limit "36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

And on the cross - standing in the place of the wicked paying the debt of the wicked -- appearing before the Father as the total guilt of sin for the whole world in all of time - He could not just take the shortcut of using His own divine power to see that all was still well.

His cry "My God My God why have you forsaken Me" was not "acting" was not "pretend" was not "Just for show". It was His real anguish and suffering condition the one the wicked will experience in the lake of fire and at the Great White Throne Judgment of Rev 20 -- which He was not supposed to use His divine power to sidestep.
 
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BobRyan

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THAT'S what I was looking for!

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

See, if He knew for sure He he would rise again, then it's all pretty much a charade

But

If he died, from withdrawal of The Father, dying the eternal death, then it makes sense

Isaiah 5:3 coupled with Matthew 27:46;

“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matt. 27:46, KJV).

Thank you

Yep! That is it!
 
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BobRyan

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Why do you say it was a charade? Did Abraham abandon Isaac? The Father never abandoned Yeshua...

If Christ was merely feigning disrepair and grief - when He claims He was forsaken then it would be little more than "acting" for the sake of emotional effect rather than the reality of what Isaiah 53 says it was.

read the chapter that the OP is talking about - Christ was not always in the condition of sin bearer while on Earth. For most of His life He was the "spotless lamb of God" - Only at the cross did He stand in the position of the wicked before God to take the punishment due the wicked.

The Desire of Ages

The Father never ceased to Love Christ as that chapter points out - but the decision that the Godhead had made -- they all agreed - that Christ should stand in the condemned position of the lost sinner and take the punishment God's Law says is due the sinner which includes the experience of separation from God, despair grief torment of soul etc. All the debt owed.
 
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Mark Quayle

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See, if He knew for sure He he would rise again, then it's all pretty much a charade

But

If he died, from withdrawal of The Father, dying the eternal death, then it makes sense
You mean, if he knew he would rise again, it is only him playing the part? Even from a human standpoint, nevermind from God's point of view, it is not ONLY him playing the part! He was fulfilling Scripture, obedient to the Father's will. Even Abraham knew that if God indeed had him to carry out his son's sacrifice, he would raise him up again and fulfill his promise to Abraham. The intellectual knowledge of what was going on makes no difference as to its effectiveness. In fact, I should think that knowing he would rise again affirms what he was doing.

But regardless, the intellect does not qualify the deed.
 
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Gary O'

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If Christ was merely feigning disrepair and grief - when He claims He was forsaken then it would be little more than "acting" for the sake of emotional effect rather than the reality of what Isaiah 53 says it was.

Thank you, Bob

I'm still seeking more biblical texts to substantiate

But, Isaiah sure says it
 
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