Christmas stories fulfilling prophecies in their own ways

Quid est Veritas?

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Well you seem to be a Christian and you're saying that the stories aren't purely factual. You said:

That is not compatible with being purely factual.
There is no such thing as any writing being 'purely factual' in the manner you want. Any narrative is already placing things in a specific context and thus altering the understanding thereof and biasing the reader. Pick up biographies of someone and you see this. For instance, a Ricardian society biography of Richard III vs a traditional one. They'll both have the same 'facts' today, but are very different. In the past, history was merely written along more literary lines than the modern version with attribition, etc. A good way to think of them is like a movie based on real history, like Darkest Hour or Lincoln. A 'fictionalised' narrative created on our perceived view of true events. Again, this was not the point of the Gospels, which was to tell and explain the Good News.
Well the Bible is different from accounts of Julius Caesar's assassination. Many Christians believe it was inspired and God-breathed.
Yes? Why does this mean it must be some form of writing that simply did not exist at the time? Probably has never existed, as history is mostly 'lies agreed upon' as attributed to Napoleon. The Bible also has poetry and wisdom literature. Being inspired does not mean it must adhere to a narrow idea of 'purely factual' of modern invention, not even applied to others. Read the Church Fathers and you'll see they were well aware of variation between gospels, but it bothered them little and did not stop all the Gospels being 'God-inspired'. Augustine mentions the Gerasa, Gadara thing and such and often drew lessons from variation too. Even the translation differences between the Hebrew text and the LXX was a place of potential God-inspired revelation to Augustine, which today is often treated as if some 'problem'. I advise reading the latter parts of City of God, so you can have a better idea what is meant by 'God-inspired' by the Church Fathers.

The crowd's knowledge of the Christmas stories
"At a festival in Jerusalem, which Jesus' brothers also attended (John 7:10), some of the crowd said that Jesus was the Messiah (John 7:41-42).....Some of the crowd were aware of the prophecy that the Messiah would come from Bethlehem and they were sure that that didn't apply to Jesus." [i.e. no one was saying that Jesus came from Bethlehem]


There were no "both sides". No-one, including the author of John, said that Jesus was from Bethlehem or was a descendent of David. Luke and Matthew were also aware of the prophecy of Bethlehem and David and so made sure he was born there (in different ways - in Matthew they begin there in a house) and clearly descended from David (with their own contradictory genealogies as proof).
You don't understand what I am saying and don't seem to be reading with comprehension that passage. They say He can't be the Messiah as not of Bethlehem, but others hailed the Galilean as Messiah regardless. John often creates such seeming ambiguity, while by doing so hinting to deeper truth and understanding. Why mention that at all, if he was arguing for Jesus as God (as John states right at the beginning)? The fact of Bethlehem not being ommited entirely speaks volumes. It is the same type of thing often found in John, like Pilate's Cynical "What is Truth?" that goes unanswered after Jesus calls himself truth. This is why it is called the Spiritual Gospel, as it is trying to inculcate deeper understanding than a superficial narrative.
I did talk about time references!

When Was Jesus Born?

"Jesus was alive when King Herod the Great was alive, but most scholars believe that Herod died in 4 BC, so Jesus must have been born in 4 BC or earlier."

"...which means that the census, when Jesus was born in Luke, would have happened in 6 or 7 AD."

So if I had read my own book more carefully I would have realised that Herod the Great wasn't alive when Jesus was born in the book of Luke. (though I know some Christians place the census back when Herod the Great was alive)


I'm more concerned whether things are purely factual or not. The Christians I know believe that the Bible is purely factual (unless there are some metaphors, etc) My focus in on the words in the Bible themselves though in the "When Was Jesus Born?" and
"Why are the genealogies different?" sections I looked outside of the Bible.


Well it seems you agree with me that it seems the Christmas stories aren't purely factual and are at least partly invented.
You should go back to the drawing board. Your reading has been ludicrously superficial. Your very failure to see the problem of Herod shows a failure to address the political situation of 1st century Judaea. This is highly important for understanding the birth narratives, being about kings of the Jews. For instance, Herod the Great had been deposed by adherents of the Hasmonaean Aristobolus, with Parthian backing, before Rome re-installed their client king. This underlies the Magi visiting Herod regarding a newborn king, Magi being a Medean priestly class from within Parthia. As I said, you are substantially missing the point that the writers are trying to get across.

Chasing some pipedream 'factual' is meaningless. You can't do this for any Hellenistic narrative, so it can be seen as factual as the Caesars, depending upon the framework within which it is placed. Chasing some made-up standard that no one of the period expected nor any other work can live up to, is equally so. You can't have your cake and eat it too, affirming ancient authors on dates for Herod's death but then demanding absolutes for the Gospels.

The second something is placed in a narrative, it ceases being what it was. It becomes a story, it has a new context. Its meaning becomes relational to this. So 'empiric facts' placed in a scientific theory as support or falsification, is no longer purely factual. Newtonian Mechanics wasn't purely factual, as can be seen in the fact that it was superceded by Relativity and Quantum theory - their own narratives written around findings, which themselves remain inconsistent in places. It is a framework of understanding, bearing a structure of valence. Essentially, something like a Just So story, which is why many Scientists like to call us Pan Narrans - the storytelling Ape. So if we can't even expect the purely factual in our Sciences, how on earth do you expect it in history? Our creation of Historical timelines by modern Historical Critical Method is just cherry-picking ancient authors and moving events around to what seems most plausible to us, or upon which writer we place most trust, anyway. It is also not purely factual, but a further contextual narrative framework built around it.

Further, the very fact of four Gospels, four different frameworks of understanding of Jesus, shows that this really is not what the Church Fathers were after either. Your objections are thus quite silly indeed. As I said, if you don't address things on their own terms, upon which they were created, then anything can be discarded. You essentially set up strawmen to knock down, or a variation of other fallacious reasoning. As Pontius Pilate once said according to the Gospel: "What is Truth?" or to rephrase in its Cynic philosophic tradition: What is Fact?
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I see your point of view as being somewhat liberal and I was hoping to discuss the issues in my book with Christians that are more fundamentalist who would not want to say that anything was invented. Maybe they feel their counter-arguments aren't very strong.
You should scrap your book and start over after immersing yourself in Hellenistic culture and primary authors to get the socio-political mileau. I suggest Josephus, Philo and Tacitus. Ancilliary people like Cassius Dio are also useful. Modern historians like Adrian Goldsworthy, Stewart Perwone or Pierre Bryant may also be of use. As @2PhiloVoid intimated, some study of Epistemology and Hermeneutics here would also be invaluable, or at least investigate the methodology of the historical method regarding ancient authors: Arnold Toynbee or such should help with that. Happy reading!
 
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JohnClay

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You should scrap your book
Too late, I published it almost a year ago... :)

and start over after immersing yourself in Hellenistic culture and primary authors to get the socio-political mileau. I suggest Josephus, Philo and Tacitus.
This is a summary of my book:
"This is a short book which retells the Bible's Christmas stories and investigates their similarities and differences.....Since the stories are retold, the book is suitable for readers who have no knowledge of them. It also highlights some other parts of the stories that casual readers might not be aware of."

This is part of my conclusion:
"In the end, your explanations for why the Christmas stories are so different depend on how trustworthy you believe the Bible is. If you are committed to believing that every word of the Bible is true, then the differences must all be explained by the authors not being aware of things or deciding not to include them."

"...An alternative is that the stories are so different because they are based on independent rumors or fiction, intended to show that the Messiah's prophecies were fulfilled. They could involve parables that utilize symbolism to tell deeper "truths."..."

It seems your view would fit that alternative. That is as deeply as I'm interested in looking into that possibility.
 
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JohnClay

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....They say He can't be the Messiah as not of Bethlehem, but others hailed the Galilean as Messiah regardless...
Ok I see.

...John often creates such seeming ambiguity, while by doing so hinting to deeper truth and understanding. Why mention that at all, if he was arguing for Jesus as God (as John states right at the beginning)? The fact of Bethlehem not being ommited entirely speaks volumes....
Yes it is the only other place in the NT that mentions Bethlehem and it seems to be saying that Jesus was not from there. BTW I also used the phrase "deeper truth" in my conclusion...
 
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JohnClay

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There is no such thing as any writing being 'purely factual' in the manner you want.
I meant that as a contrast to "...it was not uncommon to invent speeches for protagonists or move events or places around for literary purposes..."
 
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JohnClay

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....You essentially set up strawmen to knock down, or a variation of other fallacious reasoning....
Yes from your point of view, but I know large numbers of Christians (including ones with theology qualifications) who believe that what the Bible says is basically accurate - and the genealogies are both factual, etc.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Too late, I published it almost a year ago... :)
You can always publish errata...
This is a summary of my book:
"This is a short book which retells the Bible's Christmas stories and investigates their similarities and differences.....Since the stories are retold, the book is suitable for readers who have no knowledge of them. It also highlights some other parts of the stories that casual readers might not be aware of."

This is part of my conclusion:
"In the end, your explanations for why the Christmas stories are so different depend on how trustworthy you believe the Bible is. If you are committed to believing that every word of the Bible is true, then the differences must all be explained by the authors not being aware of things or deciding not to include them."

"...An alternative is that the stories are so different because they are based on independent rumors or fiction, intended to show that the Messiah's prophecies were fulfilled. They could involve parables that utilize symbolism to tell deeper "truths."..."

It seems your view would fit that alternative. That is as deeply as I'm interested in looking into that possibility.
That is a false dichotomy. They could be considered true and writers decide not to add details for whatever reason, and be used as allegory or symbolic narratives concurrently. In fact, this is more likely in a Hellenistic perspective. As I said, history was written with an aim, usually to teach virtue or draw a lesson.

A good example here is Plutarch's Parallel Lives. It uses the real lives of people like Alcibiades, Pericles, or Marc Antony, to illustrate points on virtue and often draws allegoric meaning. It would be as if we wrote a history of the interwar years to show the dangers of Nationalism or used Adolf Hitler allegorically to represent inordinate pride and hubris.

Ok I see.


Yes it is the only other place in the NT that mentions Bethlehem and it seems to be saying that Jesus was not from there. BTW I also used the phrase "deeper truth" in my conclusion...
Jesus wasn't known as a Bethlehemite, but as of Nazareth after all. Jewish Christians were called Nazarites or Nazarenos initially from it. The Islamic and Hebrew still uses terms for Nazareth for their terms to this day. There was also an idiomatic use of Nazareth as a one horse town of no account - so it has rebirth implications.
Doesn't mean Jesus wasn't born in Bethlehem, nor does John exclude this (but perhaps is even obliquely referencing it), but Jesus was crucified as Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, in the end.

As an illustration: CS Lewis was born in Belfast and there is an Irish quality to many of his works, but he is thought an Oxford don. Stalin was born in Georgia, but is a Russian dictator, even if his actual country, the USSR, was not built on ethnic grounds. The Greek Diocles became the Roman Emperor Diocletian; or the Idumaean Herod, the King of the Jews.

I meant that as a contrast to "...it was not uncommon to invent speeches for protagonists or move events or places around for literary purposes..."
In what way? This has no bearing on factuality in a Hellenistic narrative. When constructing modern histories of ancient times, we do the exact same thing when we move events around from how Hellenistic hisorians placed them, to what seems most plausible to us. Likewise we try and explain their actions by applying motive and such - which Hellenistic historians would have placed in a speech, valueing rhetoric, instead of a prose passage.

Yes from your point of view, but I know large numbers of Christians (including ones with theology qualifications) who believe that what the Bible says is basically accurate - and the genealogies are both factual, etc.
I think the Gospels are basically accurate. Probably more accurate than Suetonius, or Diodorus Siculus for instance. You should keep the Bible's purpose in mind, which is instruction to live in accordance with God's will, to prepare sons of God, not to represent a 'history' in the modern sense. The Genealogies and such, depend how you interpret them. The Bible is also a vast collection of texts of various ages and cultural conditions, which need to be kept in mind when reading it. If I am writing a history of first century Judaea, that is a substantially different kettle of fish.

You seem to want to be arguing with less than 1% of Christians, like King James Only versionists that think they speak Jacobean English in Heaven. The Church Fathers certainly didn't expect it. This is all highly anachronistic thinking on all sides. They'll just say "the Bible says it, so it's true", and ignore Josephus or dates or whatever you're peddling anyway - so that is wasted effort. Their framework is based on the Bible primarily, so arguing contradiction or confusion by extra-Biblical means like distances or such is moot. It says more of what aim you are trying to achieve by this argument, than to add to anyone's understanding. Cui bono, my friend?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I see your point of view as being somewhat liberal and I was hoping to discuss the issues in my book with Christians that are more fundamentalist who would not want to say that anything was invented. Maybe they feel their counter-arguments aren't very strong.

Yes, that's one way of thinking about it. There may be a few more Fundamentalist type Christians who don't feel their counter-arguments are strong. On the other hand, I think I've run into quite a number of my fellow Christians who do feel that there is some kind of theological strength in the way they perceive the nature of the biblical text.
 
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JohnClay

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You can always publish errata...
I could just change:
Other similarities
Herod the Great was ruling
to:
A King Herod was ruling

Though:
Census of Quirinius - Wikipedia
"...Some conservative scholars have argued that Quirinius may have had an earlier and historically unattested term as governor of Syria, or that he previously held other senior positions which may have led him to be involved in the affairs of Judea during Herod's reign, or that the passage should be interpreted in some other fashion. These arguments have been rejected by mainline scholarship as "exegetical acrobatics"..."
I learnt about that from the book
https://www.amazon.com/Nativity-Critical-Examination-Jonathan-Pearce/dp/0956694853
Maybe you'd like that book. But I have a different focus.

So since a defence for Christians exists, I would rather just not bring up that topic of it being a different Herod in the book at all. (though I still mention the 10 year difference in mainstream dating). I want to seem as reasonable as possible to fundamentalist Christians. I took into account a lot of feedback from them while I was writing it.

The Genealogies and such, depend how you interpret them.
Well fundamentalists would interpret them as being about real people with nothing invented at all.

You seem to want to be arguing with less than 1% of Christians, like King James Only versionists that think they speak Jacobean English in Heaven.....They'll just say "the Bible says it, so it's true",
Yes, like Answers in Genesis they trust "God's word" above "man's word":
mans-opinion.gif


and ignore Josephus or dates or whatever you're peddling anyway - so that is wasted effort. Their framework is based on the Bible primarily, so arguing contradiction or confusion by extra-Biblical means like distances or such is moot.
That's why I'm focusing on what the Bible says itself rather than talking about Hasmonaean Aristobolus. Also they agree with me about the distances - I based it on Christian maps.

It says more of what aim you are trying to achieve by this argument, than to add to anyone's understanding. Cui bono, my friend?
I think I am adding to people's understanding - about how problematic it is to try and reconcile both of the stories with actual history. The guide also talks about things that aren't an attack.
 
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Radagast

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So they were in Jerusalem in Luke 2:38. In the next verse (Luke 2:39) it says they returned to Nazareth.

In Luke 2:22-38, Jesus is 41 days old and in Jerusalem.

In Luke 2:41-51, Jesus is 12 years old, and travelling from Nazareth to Jerusalem.

So the two verses Luke 2:39-40 summarise a roughly 12 year period, in which Jesus travels, eventually returns to Nazareth, and grows up there. There isn't the faintest trace of a contradiction of other gospel accounts there, and nothing in Luke 2:39-40 requires treating the account as anything other than straight history.
 
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JohnClay

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In Luke 2:22-38, Jesus is 41 days old and in Jerusalem.

In Luke 2:41-51, Jesus is 12 years old, and travelling from Nazareth to Jerusalem.

So the two verses Luke 2:39-40 summarise a roughly 12 year period, in which Jesus travels, eventually returns to Nazareth, and grows up there. There isn't the faintest trace of a contradiction of other gospel accounts there, and nothing in Luke 2:39-40 requires treating the account as anything other than straight history.
Thanks for your reply attempting to combine the two stories.

Yes verses 39 and 40 summarise a roughly 12 year period.

But let's look at verse 39:
"When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth."

What was required of the law was the circumcision and the sacrifice of two doves. Verse 39 looks like after they had done that they went to Nazareth. It doesn't say there was a period of time in between. And it doesn't say they went to Bethlehem again either. If the author of Luke knew about Matthew surely he would have mentioned going to Bethlehem again since the visiting of the wise men and fleeing to Egypt to escape Herod are notable. Yet Luke mentions really long songs.
 
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Radagast

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Thanks for your reply attempting to combine the two stories.

It wasn't an "attempt." It was a statement of fact about the text in Luke.

But let's look at verse 39:
"When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth."

It doesn't say immediately after. I don't think the Greek in that verse implies that at all.

If the author of Luke knew about Matthew surely he would have mentioned going to Bethlehem again since the visiting of the wise men and fleeing to Egypt to escape Herod are notable. Yet Luke mentions really long songs.

Obviously what you think is notable is not the same as what Luke thinks is notable. Indeed, all the gospel writers had different purposes and different audiences, and consequently different ideas of what was notable.

And you really should pay more attention to that "really long song." It's there for a reason.

 
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JohnClay

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....It doesn't say immediately after. I don't think the Greek in that verse implies that at all....
"When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth."

I think it is a stretch to say that after they went to Jerusalem they stayed in Bethlehem for a year or two then went to Egypt before going to Nazareth.

...And you really should pay more attention to that "really long song." It's there for a reason....
Zacharias's song goes for 13 verses. I don't understand why Luke included that but couldn't add a bit to verse 39 to say they went back to Bethlehem first and also went to Egypt.
 
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Radagast

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"When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth."

What it actually says is Καὶ ὡς ἐτέλεσαν πάντα κατὰ τὸν νόμον κυρίου, ἐπέστρεψαν εἰς τὴν Γαλιλαίαν εἰς πόλιν ἑαυτῶν Ναζαρέθ.

I don't understand why Luke included that but couldn't add a bit to verse 39 to say they went back to Bethlehem first and also went to Egypt.

That is correct. You do not understand.
 
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JohnClay

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@Radagast:
Another thing about Luke 2:39:
It says "they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth".
In Luke 1, they came from Nazareth.

In Matthew, there is no mention of Nazareth at the start. Because "Archelaus was reigning in Judea" they went to Nazareth - no mention of them simply returning home.

Also about the 13 verse song of Zacharias - neither Mary or Joseph was there so it seems odd it could have been passed down accurately - about 30 years before most of Jesus's life. Like Quid est Veritas? said: "it was not uncommon to invent speeches for protagonists".
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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reconcile to actual history.
You keep missing much of the point of what I am saying. What do you mean by 'actual history'? Do you mean the reconstruction we attempt to make? Why does this take precedence, if based on similar sources? As I said, all Hellenistic sources are similar to the Gospels. They are just treated as secondary sources because their unblushing miraculous narrative makes secular historians wary, but a lot of good and verifiable information is there. For instance, the Gospels' title of prefect for Pilate has been shown accurate, while Tacitus' Procurator not, by archaeologic means. Why then still trust Tacitus above the Gospels on everything else? You are assuming a paradigm here, and they are assuming theirs. There is little difference between your positions, which either way require much special pleading. That is why proper historians hedge everything in caveats and citations, to show how they determined it. It is a play of probability, but the 'factual' or 'actual' adjectives you keep applying really has little place. Everything depends on what sources are given precedence over others, and a purely Biblical argument resorts to making assumptions on narrative lacunae - to think them absolute or not.
 
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JohnClay

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You keep missing much of the point of what I am saying. What do you mean by 'actual history'? Do you mean the reconstruction we attempt to make?
Yes, like this attempt by Answers in Genesis that tries to avoid there being contradictions in the stories:
Christmas Timeline of the Biblical Account
And it would also include the attempt to explain how Jesus's birth during the census happened at the same time as when Herod the Great was alive.
And it would involve the priest Zacharias actually saying what those 13 verses say he said.

...You are assuming a paradigm here, and they are assuming theirs. There is little difference between your positions, which either way require much special pleading...
My position is that it seems that the view that "the Bible says it, so it's true" is not correct.

....but the 'factual' or 'actual' adjectives you keep applying really has little place.
My focus is on Christians who believe "the Bible says it, so it's true". And by that I mean that they believe the people described actually did and (roughly) said what is recorded, in the places that are mentioned. And the genealogies involve real people even though at first glance they seem to contradict one another.
 
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Radagast

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In Matthew, there is no mention of Nazareth at the start. Because "Archelaus was reigning in Judea" they went to Nazareth - no mention of them simply returning home.

Well, it's in the grey zone as to whether Nazareth was really "home," after an absence of several years. No doubt Archelaus was the reason for returning to Nazareth rather than returning to Bethlehem. What of it?

As I've said several times, different gospel writers had different audiences, goals, and priorities.

Also about the 13 verse song of Zacharias - neither Mary or Joseph was there so it seems odd it could have been passed down accurately - about 30 years before most of Jesus's life.

Seriously? It hardly takes a miracle. People preserve stuff. If I had to guess, I'd say the John the Baptist community preserved it, and Luke, in his effort to dig up source material, got it via them.
 
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Well, it's in the grey zone as to whether Nazareth was really "home,"
It says "they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth".

after an absence of several years.
If you look at Luke on its own, they seem to have returned to Nazareth quite quickly after the census (within a few weeks). Only when you try to add in many years at the start of verse 39 is there a problem. Also Matthew says they stayed in a house in Bethlehem - perhaps their own house.

No doubt Archelaus was the reason for returning to Nazareth rather than returning to Bethlehem. What of it?
If they were returning to Nazareth in Matthew, it should have said so. Instead it seems they are going there for the first time. Though the NIV does add the title "The Return to Nazareth" perhaps to brush aside that problem.

Seriously? It hardly takes a miracle. People preserve stuff. If I had to guess, I'd say the John the Baptist community preserved it, and Luke, in his effort to dig up source material, got it via them.
That sounds reasonable.
 
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"A virgin will give birth to the Messiah (Isaiah 7:14)"

Except that Isaiah doesn't mention a virgin (Hebrew bethuwlah vs almah). The prophecy includes some interesting bits though:
That is true of the Masoretic text (Leningrad codex -circa AD 1000). The Septuagint, however, which was circulating sometime prior to AD 132, uses the Greek word tl'd as pathenos. That would translate to Bethuwlah as tl'd in Hebrew. However, more recently the Isaiah Scroll discovered at Qumran near the Dead Sea and which is dated somewhere between 100 BC to AD70, was also found to use עַלְמָה tl:`almah , which can be translated to young maiden, maiden, young girl, etc. While we don't have the Hebrew texts they used to translate the LXX that then is the oldest Hebrew text currently in our possession. Indeed Mary, being but 13 years of age when she gave birth to Jesus, could be described as a young maiden. However, all this debate over word usage may be superfluous, as earlier Biblical texts than Isaiah appear to use the term quite interchangeably. For example in Gen 24:16 we see Moses uses the Hebrew word בְּתוּלָה tl: bĕthuwlah to describe Rebekah.
  • Now the young woman was very beautiful to behold, a virgin; no man had known her. And she went down to the well, filled her pitcher, and came up.
Later on in Genesis 24:43 Rebekah is also described in terms of the Hebrew word “almah.” In this case, a “young maiden”
NASB:

  • Behold, I am standing by the spring, and may it be that the maiden who comes out to draw, and to whom I say, “Please let me drink a little water from your jar”
Obviously Rebekah is a chaste young virgin and maiden in both cases. Some Translations recognize this as well and simply translate Gen 24:43 as virgin instead of maiden, which is quite appropriate contextually.

Another note of side interest is that taken from the Syriac Peshitta, which translates the Hebrew עלמה into Syriac with ܒܬܘܠܬܐ meaning 'chaste maiden'. This of course would also be contextually consistent with the rendering of “virgin" that we find in the Septuagint rather than "young girl" or "maiden" as seen in MSS.
 

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