Christmas is a pagan holiday?!
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Focus on the Second Coming
While “Joy to the World” is primarily sung at Christmas, it's not about the incarnation. Rather, the song tells the story of Christ’s return—his second coming. We know this for at least three reasons.
First, the song speaks of the whole earth receiving her King:
But is that what happened when Christ came? After all, Scripture tells us that he was not readily received by everyone.
The earth did not receive her King but like sheep, went astray. Still, we know that there will be a day when this will not be so:
On that day, both heaven and nature will sing out and repeat the sounding joy for all eternity.
Second, we know this hymn is a song of Christ’s second coming because verse 3 talks about sins and sorrows being no more:
While “Joy to the World” is primarily sung at Christmas, it's not about the incarnation. Rather, the song tells the story of Christ’s return—his second coming. We know this for at least three reasons.
First, the song speaks of the whole earth receiving her King:
Joy to the world! The Lord is come;
Let earth receive her King;
Let every heart prepare him room,
And heaven and nature sing
Let earth receive her King;
Let every heart prepare him room,
And heaven and nature sing
But is that what happened when Christ came? After all, Scripture tells us that he was not readily received by everyone.
He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. (Is. 53:3)
The earth did not receive her King but like sheep, went astray. Still, we know that there will be a day when this will not be so:
God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:9-10)
On that day, both heaven and nature will sing out and repeat the sounding joy for all eternity.
Second, we know this hymn is a song of Christ’s second coming because verse 3 talks about sins and sorrows being no more:
No more let sins and sorrows grow,
Nor thorns infest the ground;
He comes to make his blessings flow
Far as the curse is found
Joy to the World: A Christmas Hymn ReconsideredNor thorns infest the ground;
He comes to make his blessings flow
Far as the curse is found
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Ah yes. The "Christmas is pagan" posts are starting a little early this year. If Christmas, or any other Christian observance is, or was copied from, some pagan observance I would like to see some credible, verifiable, historical evidence showing that. I don't mean "There was this or that pagan observance about the same time of year so it must be." If the 21st century accusation is correct some faithful Christian somewhere, at or near the time had to have seen it and wrote about it.
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An Ancient Holiday
"The middle of winter has long been a time of celebration around the world. Centuries before the arrival of the man called Jesus, early Europeans celebrated light and birth in the darkest days of winter. Many peoples rejoiced during the winter solstice, when the worst of the winter was behind them and they could look forward to longer days and extended hours of sunlight.
In Scandinavia, the Norse celebrated Yule from December 21, the winter solstice, through January. In recognition of the return of the sun, fathers and sons would bring home large logs, which they would set on fire. The people would feast until the log burned out, which could take as many as 12 days. The Norse believed that each spark from the fire represented a new pig or calf that would be born during the coming year.
The end of December was a perfect time for celebration in most areas of Europe. At that time of year, most cattle were slaughtered so they would not have to be fed during the winter. For many, it was the only time of year when they had a supply of fresh meat. In addition, most wine and beer made during the year was finally fermented and ready for drinking.
In Germany, people honored the pagan god Oden during the mid-winter holiday. Germans were terrified of Oden, as they believed he made nocturnal flights through the sky to observe his people, and then decide who would prosper or perish. Because of his presence, many people chose to stay inside.
In Scandinavia, the Norse celebrated Yule from December 21, the winter solstice, through January. In recognition of the return of the sun, fathers and sons would bring home large logs, which they would set on fire. The people would feast until the log burned out, which could take as many as 12 days. The Norse believed that each spark from the fire represented a new pig or calf that would be born during the coming year.
The end of December was a perfect time for celebration in most areas of Europe. At that time of year, most cattle were slaughtered so they would not have to be fed during the winter. For many, it was the only time of year when they had a supply of fresh meat. In addition, most wine and beer made during the year was finally fermented and ready for drinking.
In Germany, people honored the pagan god Oden during the mid-winter holiday. Germans were terrified of Oden, as they believed he made nocturnal flights through the sky to observe his people, and then decide who would prosper or perish. Because of his presence, many people chose to stay inside.
This whole thing transpired over a long time, starting a long time ago in the third or fourth century. If you're looking for a newspaper article, you're out of luck. This is one of those things that you'll have to put together, or not, with your own neurotransmitters.
But consider that there was a time as recent as the 17th century, where righteous men in England and America, who were closer to the history, knew that the Christmas celebration was a counterfeit. They knew it and they took action against it. That should be at least a hint to you, a heads up, that our present day Christmas is a copy that pays honor to a pagan celebration:
An Outlaw Christmas
"In the early 17th century, a wave of religious reform changed the way Christmas was celebrated in Europe. When Oliver Cromwell and his Puritan forces took over England in 1645, they vowed to rid England of decadence and, as part of their effort, cancelled Christmas. By popular demand, Charles II was restored to the throne and, with him, came the return of the popular holiday.
The pilgrims, English separatists that came to America in 1620, were even more orthodox in their Puritan beliefs than Cromwell. As a result, Christmas was not a holiday in early America. From 1659 to 1681, the celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed in Boston. Anyone exhibiting the Christmas spirit was fined five shillings. By contrast, in the Jamestown settlement, Captain John Smith reported that Christmas was enjoyed by all and passed without incident.
After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Christmas wasn’t declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870.
"In the early 17th century, a wave of religious reform changed the way Christmas was celebrated in Europe. When Oliver Cromwell and his Puritan forces took over England in 1645, they vowed to rid England of decadence and, as part of their effort, cancelled Christmas. By popular demand, Charles II was restored to the throne and, with him, came the return of the popular holiday.
The pilgrims, English separatists that came to America in 1620, were even more orthodox in their Puritan beliefs than Cromwell. As a result, Christmas was not a holiday in early America. From 1659 to 1681, the celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed in Boston. Anyone exhibiting the Christmas spirit was fined five shillings. By contrast, in the Jamestown settlement, Captain John Smith reported that Christmas was enjoyed by all and passed without incident.
After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Christmas wasn’t declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870.
History of Christmas - Christmas - HISTORY.com
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Same ol' lame ol' copy/paste which I have seen scores of time right here and elsewhere. I have been active on this forum for 17 years. Not one historical document quoted to back up any of this. We have a few hundred years of the writings of the early church but not one mention of anything being copied from paganism.
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That's because this took place AFTER the times of Polycarp and Eugenius. So I'll guess you'll be awhile longer if you're looking for those kinds of documents.
But it's not too hard to reverse engineer the thing, Google is your friend. But again, it's one of those things that you'll have to figure out for yourself. Remember that the apostles warned us there would be a falling away from the ways of God.
"I hate, I reject your festivals, Nor do I delight in your solemn assemblies.
You can also consider that Jesus never celebrated birthdays, and nobody celebrated His. Then look into where the practice of celebrating birthdays even originated. Can you picture Jesus or the disciples blowing out birthday cake candles?
So I find this from a TV station in Minneapolis. I doubt that the writters there would have a hidden agenda in place to try and mislead you.
• Why do we celebrate birthdays?
The idea of celebrating the date of your birth is a pagan tradition. In fact, many Christians didn’t celebrate birthdays historically, because of that link to paganism.
Pagans thought that evil spirits lurked on days of major changes, like the day you turn a year older.
The ancient Greeks believed that each person had a spirit that attended his or her birth, and kept watch. That spirit “had a mystic relation with the God on whose birthday the individual was born,” says the book The Lore of Birthdays.
• Why do we blow out candles on our birthday?
The candles were a response to the evil spirits. They showed up to communicate with the gods. A light, in the darkness.
The Germans are credited with starting the kids birthday tradition in the 1700s. They put candles on tortes for “kinderfeste,” one for each year of life, along with some extras to signify upcoming years.
Although research on the exact origin of birthdays and birthday cakes remains inconclusive, there is enough of a consensus to piece together an approximate history. Perhaps someday a Birthdayologist will come along to set the record completely straight, but until then, we've compiled this short list of historians' best hypotheses on the evolution of birthday celebrations and the delicious cakes that so often accompany them.
The idea of celebrating the date of your birth is a pagan tradition. In fact, many Christians didn’t celebrate birthdays historically, because of that link to paganism.
Pagans thought that evil spirits lurked on days of major changes, like the day you turn a year older.
The ancient Greeks believed that each person had a spirit that attended his or her birth, and kept watch. That spirit “had a mystic relation with the God on whose birthday the individual was born,” says the book The Lore of Birthdays.
• Why do we blow out candles on our birthday?
The candles were a response to the evil spirits. They showed up to communicate with the gods. A light, in the darkness.
The Germans are credited with starting the kids birthday tradition in the 1700s. They put candles on tortes for “kinderfeste,” one for each year of life, along with some extras to signify upcoming years.
Although research on the exact origin of birthdays and birthday cakes remains inconclusive, there is enough of a consensus to piece together an approximate history. Perhaps someday a Birthdayologist will come along to set the record completely straight, but until then, we've compiled this short list of historians' best hypotheses on the evolution of birthday celebrations and the delicious cakes that so often accompany them.
And the hits just keep on coming.
"Although research on the exact origin of birthdays and birthday cakes remains inconclusive, there is enough of a consensus to piece together an approximate history.
"Due to its belief that humans are born with "original sin" and the fact that early birthdays were tied to "pagan" gods, the Christian Church considered birthday celebrations evil for the first few hundred years of its existence. Around the 4th century, Christians changed their minds and began to celebrate the birthday of Jesus as the holiday of Christmas. This new celebration was accepted into the church partly in hopes of recruiting those already celebrating the Roman holiday of Saturnalia.
"Due to its belief that humans are born with "original sin" and the fact that early birthdays were tied to "pagan" gods, the Christian Church considered birthday celebrations evil for the first few hundred years of its existence. Around the 4th century, Christians changed their minds and began to celebrate the birthday of Jesus as the holiday of Christmas. This new celebration was accepted into the church partly in hopes of recruiting those already celebrating the Roman holiday of Saturnalia.
This Is Why You Get To Celebrate Your Birthday Every Year
In fact, during any search for an innocent phrase like: "the origin of Christmas", I never find an article like it was started by Mary Magdalene or some church women during the time of Polycarp. I'm always directed to the pagan European Saturnalia style winter festivals.
I don't think Google would be involved in a conspiracy. I know that the most popular links come up, but I'm a good searcher. I'll dig in for a couple pages of results. This is just one of those things that we don't want to be true due to our traditions of man. I was a kid too once. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
This Holiday Season, Celebrate Saturnalia!
And for anyone else who isn't sure that we're at the end on the road, checkout this link. Fertility rituals under the mistletoe, yeah right. Gimme a break.
10 Christmas Customs with Pagan Roots
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ViaCrucis
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Saturnalia lasted from December 17th to December 23rd.
Christmas doesn't fall on any of the following days:
December 17th
December 18th
December 19th
December 20th
December 21st
December 22nd
December 23rd
The Feast of Christ's Nativity falls on December 25th, and the period of Christmastide lasts from the December 25th until January 5th. Twelve days. Perhaps people might have heard the song a time or two.
-CryptoLutheran
Christmas doesn't fall on any of the following days:
December 17th
December 18th
December 19th
December 20th
December 21st
December 22nd
December 23rd
The Feast of Christ's Nativity falls on December 25th, and the period of Christmastide lasts from the December 25th until January 5th. Twelve days. Perhaps people might have heard the song a time or two.
-CryptoLutheran
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- Please provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence? Copy/pastes from random websites do not constitute such evidence.
- I'm not interested in biased unsupported opinions. If you were able to you should have posted some credible, verifiable, historical evidence backing up your so-called "history."
- Saturnalia grew in duration and moved to progressively later dates under the Roman period. During the reign of the Emperor Augustus (63 BC-AD 14), it was a two-day affair starting on December 17th.
- By the time Lucian described the festivities, it was a seven-day event.
- Changes to the Roman calendar moved the climax of Saturnalia to December 25th, around the time of the date of the winter solstice.
- Pagan Roman authorities tried to curtail Saturnalia; Emperor Caligula (AD 12-41) sought to restrict it to five days, with little success.
- Emperor Domitian (AD 51-96) may have changed Saturnalia’s date to December 25th in an attempt to assert his authority.
So there you have it. This is one of those things that people know in their gut is wrong, they just don't want to accept it. It's too hard for them to reject the tradition that they've spent their lives in an erroneous pursuit of.
Origins and meaning[edit]
The exact origins and the meaning of the song are unknown, but it is highly probable that it originated from a children's memory and forfeit game.[37]
The twelve days in the song are the twelve days starting with Christmas Day, or in some traditions, the day after Christmas (December 26) (Boxing Day or St. Stephen's Day, as being the feast day of St. Stephen Protomartyr), to the day before Epiphany, or the Feast of the Epiphany (January 6, or the Twelfth Day). Twelfth Night is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as "the evening of the fifth of January, preceding Twelfth Day, the eve of the Epiphany, formerly the last day of the Christmas festivities and observed as a time of merrymaking."[38]
The Twelve Days of Christmas (song) - Wikipedia
The exact origins and the meaning of the song are unknown, but it is highly probable that it originated from a children's memory and forfeit game.[37]
The twelve days in the song are the twelve days starting with Christmas Day, or in some traditions, the day after Christmas (December 26) (Boxing Day or St. Stephen's Day, as being the feast day of St. Stephen Protomartyr), to the day before Epiphany, or the Feast of the Epiphany (January 6, or the Twelfth Day). Twelfth Night is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as "the evening of the fifth of January, preceding Twelfth Day, the eve of the Epiphany, formerly the last day of the Christmas festivities and observed as a time of merrymaking."[38]
The Twelve Days of Christmas (song) - Wikipedia
Yep, that looks just like something you'd find in the Good Book. The book of Enoch maybe?
The Grinch was right.
Did the Romans Invent Christmas? | History Today
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Brian Mc
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I have not participated in Christian forums since my submissions on this topic on June 21, 23, 25 & 27 ...
please refer to these as I still hold true to those submissions.
We are participating in Christian Forums.
What is a Christian?
Christ Jesus wants all mankind to be with Him for eternity and He gave a command…. PLUS the consequences if you don’t comply with it! John 3:3 Jesus answered him, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, that unless a person is born again (anew, from above), he cannot EVER see (know, be acquainted with, and experience) the kingdom of God.
So a Christian is Christ-in. Paul clearly confirms this in Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ [in Him I have shared His crucifixion]; it is no longer I who live, but Christ (the Messiah) lives in me; and the life I now live in the body I live by faith in (by adherence to and reliance on and complete trust in) the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
So, how can a person be born again? We follow the example given by Jesus, which was part of Father’s plan to equip Him for His time on earth as a man. He obeyed Father and was baptised.
How was He baptised? Follow Jesus’ example … full immersion. …. When He came up out of the water, Father anointed Him with His Spirit .... He became Jesus Christ ... Jesus the Anointed One ... a new spiritual creation ... He left the carpenter (His previous self) behind in the water. Baptism is a step of faith (not an involuntary “sprinkling” as a babe), being washed clean of the old self so as to receive Lord Jesus’ free gift … His cancelling of all sin …. This can be done in a river, a lake, a pond … or even under a shower … it is a step of faith.
Any person that makes a deep commitment to Lord Jesus will, as Jesus was, be made a new (spiritual) creation ... 2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any person is [ingrafted ... attached spiritually] in Christ (the Messiah), he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh {and} new has come! … when a person is spiritually ingrafted into Lord Jesus, He starts to supply, moment by moment, all that He is and has …love, joy, peace, patience, , kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control (Gal 5:22-23)
What is the first quality? Love! We are told in Rom 8:39 Nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. ….. Yes, God is love and we receive Father’s love from Lord Jesus. What is (and isn’t) love? …. Read 1 Cor 13:4-8 …. Simple, take that step of faith, be baptised and Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit do the rest … simply rest IN the True Vine (John 15) ….the benefits of all this are …Read Rom 8:13-14.
Unfortunately in many of the submissions to Christian Forums, “flesh” is dominant and if the Word of God advises us that evil deeds come from the flesh, then we know that Satan is behind ALL fleshly directed thoughts, words and actions.
Soon after His baptism and His return from 40 days in the wilderness (likely planning the next 3 ½ years with Father ….plus repelling Satan), Christ Jesus announced His purpose (Read Luke 4:18-19) …. TO FREE THE CAPTIVES … His last words on the cross were “It is finished!” …. His purpose was accomplished …. AND is available for ANYONE that believes in Him (and makes the decision to be baptised … so Father’s Spirit can be with you moment by moment …. As He was with Christ Jesus.)
I trust in & rely on all supply and blessings from the Lord ... especially Mat 8:17 ...
He Himself took [in order to carry away] our weaknesses {and} infirmities and bore away our diseases.
... consequently I have not had even a headache, a cold or a "sore finger" for 26 years..... this took obedience on my part to Father's basic command ..... ask me & I will cover this on a separate reply.
Lord Jesus is the WORD of God ... He is also the TRUTH ... which sets us free ... if it is spoken by Father/Lord Jesus in the Bible, believe it (not your own logic/thoughts).
I hope, for the sake of everyone being blessed by participating in Christian Forums, that this message finds its way to all who participate & in Lord Jesus' name all fleshly deceptions are cast out.
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Thank you for your reply to my post but I fail to see how it is pertinent to the question at hand
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So there I have nothing. I notice you did not cite any sources. Where is the credible, verifiable, historical evidence I asked for? That would be something written at or near the times in question by the person who said or did something or a direct eye witness.
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No, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence. Once again that would be something written at or near the time in question, by the person who did or said something or a direct eye witness. Not something written in the 20th-21st century copy/pasted from some anonymous website.That's because this took place AFTER the times of Polycarp and Eugenius. So I'll guess you'll be awhile longer if you're looking for those kinds of documents.
But it's not too hard to reverse engineer the thing, Google is your friend. But again, it's one of those things that you'll have to figure out for yourself. Remember that the apostles warned us there would be a falling away from the ways of God.
"I hate, I reject your festivals, Nor do I delight in your solemn assemblies.You can also consider that Jesus never celebrated birthdays, and nobody celebrated His. Then look into where the practice of celebrating birthdays even originated. Can you picture Jesus or the disciples blowing out birthday cake candles?
So I find this from a TV station in Minneapolis. I doubt that the writters there would have a hidden agenda in place to try and mislead you.
• Why do we celebrate birthdays?
The idea of celebrating the date of your birth is a pagan tradition. In fact, many Christians didn’t celebrate birthdays historically, because of that link to paganism.
Pagans thought that evil spirits lurked on days of major changes, like the day you turn a year older.
The ancient Greeks believed that each person had a spirit that attended his or her birth, and kept watch. That spirit “had a mystic relation with the God on whose birthday the individual was born,” says the book The Lore of Birthdays.
• Why do we blow out candles on our birthday?
The candles were a response to the evil spirits. They showed up to communicate with the gods. A light, in the darkness.
The Germans are credited with starting the kids birthday tradition in the 1700s. They put candles on tortes for “kinderfeste,” one for each year of life, along with some extras to signify upcoming years.
Although research on the exact origin of birthdays and birthday cakes remains inconclusive, there is enough of a consensus to piece together an approximate history. Perhaps someday a Birthdayologist will come along to set the record completely straight, but until then, we've compiled this short list of historians' best hypotheses on the evolution of birthday celebrations and the delicious cakes that so often accompany them.
And the hits just keep on coming.
"Although research on the exact origin of birthdays and birthday cakes remains inconclusive, there is enough of a consensus to piece together an approximate history.
"Due to its belief that humans are born with "original sin" and the fact that early birthdays were tied to "pagan" gods, the Christian Church considered birthday celebrations evil for the first few hundred years of its existence. Around the 4th century, Christians changed their minds and began to celebrate the birthday of Jesus as the holiday of Christmas. This new celebration was accepted into the church partly in hopes of recruiting those already celebrating the Roman holiday of Saturnalia.
This Is Why You Get To Celebrate Your Birthday Every Year
In fact, during any search for an innocent phrase like: "the origin of Christmas", I never find an article like it was started by Mary Magdalene or some church women during the time of Polycarp. I'm always directed to the pagan European Saturnalia style winter festivals.
I don't think Google would be involved in a conspiracy. I know that the most popular links come up, but I'm a good searcher. I'll dig in for a couple pages of results. This is just one of those things that we don't want to be true due to our traditions of man. I was a kid too once. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
This Holiday Season, Celebrate Saturnalia!
And for anyone else who isn't sure that we're at the end on the road, checkout this link. Fertility rituals under the mistletoe, yeah right. Gimme a break.
10 Christmas Customs with Pagan Roots
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Ignatius the Kiwi
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The main point of Christmas is to get Christians to focus on the incarnation, to the joy and hope of God becoming man that man might become like God. We celebrate this on December the 25th and I don't think the why is all that important. Much of the liturgical year developed within the course of Church history and each part of it calls us daily to remember and ponder pivotal events in the lives of the saints, Prophets and most especially Christ's life. Christmas is important because the incarnation is important, not the other way around. Those who reject entirely the practice of Christmas ultimately have to say that specific reflection on God's entrance into the world on December the 25th is wrong. There is no basis for this accusation.
Arguing that Christmas is Pagan is to argue Easter (which is Pascha) is Pagan (which it most definitely is not if you do the historical research). Are days of the year copyrighted by Pagan traditions? Is the Ground which pagans worshipped and sacrificed for their gods forever soiled by their false idols? Is the only liturgically valid expression found in the the Old Testament strictures and not in the New wherein we orientate everything around Christ? if Christmas is an abomination, Then the entire liturgical year ought to be as well but no one cares if we celebrate feast of the Transfiguration.
Instead of looking at the Christmas tree and other Christmas paraphernalia as symbols of Paganism, why not interpret them in light of Christ? Why not sanctify them for his glory? What is inherently sinful about putting decorations of angels on a tree especially when the tree isn't even being worshipped? Where the real concern about Christmas lies is not in Paganism but in the secular cultural adaptation of the holiday which has morphed it from singing carols like "hark the herald angel sings" to meaningless drivel like "jingle bells." I wouldn't mind the secular carols if only they knew their place and gave respect to their Christian Grandfather Christmas, but they ignore him.
They've tried to do the same thing with Pascha yet fortunately the Easter Bunny has not overshadowed Christ's resurrection like Santa Claus has Christ's birth. I will also say that unless we have ancient sources demonstrating clear parallels between Christmas and Pagan practices I am of the mind to dismiss the charge that Christmas arose out of a Christian attempt to adopt and Christianise a pagan holiday.
Arguing that Christmas is Pagan is to argue Easter (which is Pascha) is Pagan (which it most definitely is not if you do the historical research). Are days of the year copyrighted by Pagan traditions? Is the Ground which pagans worshipped and sacrificed for their gods forever soiled by their false idols? Is the only liturgically valid expression found in the the Old Testament strictures and not in the New wherein we orientate everything around Christ? if Christmas is an abomination, Then the entire liturgical year ought to be as well but no one cares if we celebrate feast of the Transfiguration.
Instead of looking at the Christmas tree and other Christmas paraphernalia as symbols of Paganism, why not interpret them in light of Christ? Why not sanctify them for his glory? What is inherently sinful about putting decorations of angels on a tree especially when the tree isn't even being worshipped? Where the real concern about Christmas lies is not in Paganism but in the secular cultural adaptation of the holiday which has morphed it from singing carols like "hark the herald angel sings" to meaningless drivel like "jingle bells." I wouldn't mind the secular carols if only they knew their place and gave respect to their Christian Grandfather Christmas, but they ignore him.
They've tried to do the same thing with Pascha yet fortunately the Easter Bunny has not overshadowed Christ's resurrection like Santa Claus has Christ's birth. I will also say that unless we have ancient sources demonstrating clear parallels between Christmas and Pagan practices I am of the mind to dismiss the charge that Christmas arose out of a Christian attempt to adopt and Christianise a pagan holiday.
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ViaCrucis
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The seven days are inclusive, from the 17th to the 23rd. Do you have any evidence that it was ever celebrated as a nine day feast?
Here's an article with plenty of citations from historical sources that is worth taking a gander at. And here are some historical sources:
"I think that we have now given abundant proof that the festival of the Saturnalia used to be celebrated on only one day, the fourteenth before the Kalends of January [19th December], but that it was afterward prolonged to last three days: first, in consequence to the days which Caesar added to the month of December, and then in pursuance of an edict of Augustus which prescribes a series of three rest days for the Saturnalia. The festival therefore begins on the sixteenth day before the Kalends of January [17th December] and ends on the fourteenth [19th December], which used to be the only day of its celebration. However, the addition of the feast of the Sigillaria has extended the time of general excitement and religious rejoicing to seven days." - Macrobius, Saturnalia, I.X.23-24 (Latin text can be found here, English translation is taken from here)
According to Suetonius, Caligula didn't restrict it, but extended it to five days,
"He twice gave the people a largess of three hundred sesterces each, and twice a lavish banquet to the senate and the equestrian order, together with their wives and children. At the former of these he also distributed togas to the men, and to the women and children scarves of red and scarlet. Furthermore, to make a permanent addition to the public gaiety, he added a day to the Saturnalia, and called it Juvenalis." - Seutonius, Life of the Twelve Caesars, 4.17.2 (English translation can be found here)
Cassius Dio agrees,
"For this he was commended, as it was expected that he would be truthful above all else; for by reason of his youth it was not thought possible that he could be guilty of duplicity in thought or speech. And he increased their hopes still further by ordering that the celebration of the Saturnalia should extend over five days, as well as by accepting from each of those who received the dole of grain only an as instead of the denarius that they were wont to give the emperor for the manufacture of images." - Cassius Dio, Roman History, 59.6.4 (English translation provided here)
Do you have anything to offer that says the Saturnalia was ever extended to nine days to include December 25th?
-CryptoLutheran
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Your author is simply quoting from other documents that are conflicting with the quotes from my author's sources: https://www.historytoday.com/matt-salusbury/did-romans-invent-christmas
And none of this is necessary to provide overwhelming proof of the evil and pagan origins of the Christmas celebration.
Just search out the roots of our Xmas traditions. Not all of them are from Saturnalia. But the others are just as depressing.
10 Christmas Customs with Pagan Roots
Check this out.
Here is a real time indicator that provides the proof of the evil fruit that our X-mas "celebration" produces.
"The soul that sinneth,
it shall die.
it shall die.
"Researchers cannot explain the yearly spike.
After analyzing all official United States death certificates over the 25-year period between 1979 and 2004, a trio of sociologists identified an excess of 42,325 natural deaths — that is, above and beyond the normal seasonal winter increase — in the two weeks starting with Christmas.
In the article in the journal Social Science & Medicine, researchers David Phillips, Gwendolyn Barker and Kimberly Brewer report that mortality in general rises during the Christmas season.
Deaths in a hospital setting increase tremendously on the holidays themselves.
More people die in hospital emergency wards, or arrive dead on arrival, on Christmas, Boxing Day and New Year’s Day than on any other days of the year.
“It’s not trivial,” said Mr. Phillips, a professor of sociology at the University of California at San Diego. “We looked at all cause categories and, for nearly every one, we found an excess of deaths — particularly for people who are dying rapidly, like dead-on-arrival or dying in the emergency department.”
In general, Mr. Phillips said the team’s analysis of some 57.5-million death certificates shows the chance of dying during this holiday period increases “somewhere between 3% and 9%, depending on the demographic group you’re looking at, and somewhere between 1% and 10%, depending on what cause of death you’re looking at.”
Less clear are the reasons behind this fatal phenomenon.
With cancer, for example, the rise in Christmas and New Year’s emergency room and dead-on-arrival deaths is cancelled out by a drop in cancer deaths in other medical settings, such as in-patient clinics. Mr. Phillips said patients at the end of their lives are likely being transferred out of the hospital to die at home, but then brought to hospital when their conditions worsen toward the end.
With deaths from other causes, however, the increases are evident in every medical setting, leaving researchers to wonder what mechanism causes the calendar-specific spikes.
“It’s speculated that psychological stress can make a difference,” Mr. Phillips said. “But to make a difference so quickly and so precisely bang-on Christmas and [New Year’s Day], for a huge range of diseases, makes it seem unlikely as a broad-scale explanation.”
Other explanations tested include emergency department overcrowding, winter travel, cold weather and substance abuse, none of which offered convincing evidence of driving the trend.
http://nationalpost.com/news/christmas-the-deadliest-day-of-the-year-study
Postmedia News, with files from Adam McDowell, National Post
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Let us do just that i.e. "search out the roots of our Christmas traditions" the conclusion right there at the link you posted.
Gwynn concludes: ‘The majority of modern scholars would be reluctant to accept any close connection between the Saturnalia and the emergence of the Christian Christmas."
Devout Christians will be reassured to learn that the date of Christmas may derive from concepts in Judaism that link the time of the deaths of prophets being linked to their conception or birth. From this, early ecclesiastical number-crunchers extrapolated that the nine months of Mary’s pregnancy following the Annunciation on March 25th would produce a December 25th date for the birth of Christ.
Your quotes from this same link, above, are a good example of selective, out-of-context quoting practiced by most heterodox religious groups.
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Let's look at some of the claims Matt Salusbury makes,
"Changes to the Roman calendar moved the climax of Saturnalia to December 25th, around the time of the date of the winter solstice."
I notice that he doesn't provide a source for this claim, and it definitely is in conflict with the sources I provided. That seems to be a problem, not for me, but for Matt Salusbury and you in this thread.
"Emperor Caligula (AD 12-41) sought to restrict it to five days, with little success."
Again, no source is provided. And the historical evidence is just the opposite, Caligula didn't restrict Saturnalia to five days, he expanded it to five days.
"Emperor Domitian (AD 51-96) may have changed Saturnalia’s date to December 25th in an attempt to assert his authority."
Salusbury mentions the poet Statius and his poem Silvae, I thought perhaps there might be something present therein to back up this claim, however no such luck. Book I, 6 contains the poem concerning Domitian's luxurious Saturnalia feast, but there's nothing whatsoever here about December 25th, just the mention of the "Janus’ Kalends" (the Kalends of January, which is to say, December 17th). By all means, read it for yourself here.
So no source provided for the claim that Domitian changed Saturnalia's date to the 25th of December.
"The Orthodox Church in the Eastern (Byzantine) half of the Roman Empire fixed the date of Christmas at January 6th, commemorating simultaneously Christ’s birth, baptism and first miracle."
Salusbury is incorrect here. It is true that the Armenian Church has, and continues to celebrate Christ's Nativity on January 6th (i.e. on Epiphany/Theophany), the Orthodox Church, and other Eastern Churches celebrate it on the 25th of December just as the Western Church(es) have and do.
"Saturnalia has a rival contender as the forerunner of Christmas: the festival of dies natalis solis invicti, ‘birthday of the unconquered sun’. The Philocalian calendar also states that December 25th was a Roman civil holiday honouring the cult of sol invicta. With its origins in Syria and the monotheistic cult of Mithras, sol invicta certainly has similarities to the worship of Jesus. The cult was introduced into the empire in AD 274 by Emperor Aurelian (214-275), who effectively made it a state religion, putting its emblem on Roman coins."
Well this is at least better; though misstated. For one, while Salusbury correction mentions that the earliest calendarial mention of December 25th for Christmas is the Philocalian Calendar, he fails to mention that this same calendar is the earliest mention of the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti. And here's the rub, which came first Christmas or the Dies Natalis? Christians had been mentioning December 25th as the date of Christ's birth since the early 3rd century, specifically in connection with His conception on March 25th--so the rationale went, that Jesus lived a perfect life and thus died on the same day He was conceived or born, and since the consensus was that Jesus died on a March 25th He was either conceived or born on a March 25th. Those who went with the conception view, simply counted nine months to reach December 25th. These last points, however, are mentioned briefly at the end of the article you provided.
So problem. Your article doesn't exactly provide much in terms of sources, as in, like at all.
And none of this is necessary to provide overwhelming proof of the evil and pagan origins of the Christmas celebration.
Just search out the roots of our Xmas traditions. Not all of them are from Saturnalia. But the others are just as depressing.
10 Christmas Customs with Pagan Roots
Check this out.
Here is a real time indicator that provides the proof of the evil fruit that our X-mas "celebration" produces.
"The soul that sinneth,
it shall die.
"Researchers cannot explain the yearly spike.
After analyzing all official United States death certificates over the 25-year period between 1979 and 2004, a trio of sociologists identified an excess of 42,325 natural deaths — that is, above and beyond the normal seasonal winter increase — in the two weeks starting with Christmas.
In the article in the journal Social Science & Medicine, researchers David Phillips, Gwendolyn Barker and Kimberly Brewer report that mortality in general rises during the Christmas season.
Deaths in a hospital setting increase tremendously on the holidays themselves.
More people die in hospital emergency wards, or arrive dead on arrival, on Christmas, Boxing Day and New Year’s Day than on any other days of the year.
“It’s not trivial,” said Mr. Phillips, a professor of sociology at the University of California at San Diego. “We looked at all cause categories and, for nearly every one, we found an excess of deaths — particularly for people who are dying rapidly, like dead-on-arrival or dying in the emergency department.”
In general, Mr. Phillips said the team’s analysis of some 57.5-million death certificates shows the chance of dying during this holiday period increases “somewhere between 3% and 9%, depending on the demographic group you’re looking at, and somewhere between 1% and 10%, depending on what cause of death you’re looking at.”
Less clear are the reasons behind this fatal phenomenon.
With cancer, for example, the rise in Christmas and New Year’s emergency room and dead-on-arrival deaths is cancelled out by a drop in cancer deaths in other medical settings, such as in-patient clinics. Mr. Phillips said patients at the end of their lives are likely being transferred out of the hospital to die at home, but then brought to hospital when their conditions worsen toward the end.
With deaths from other causes, however, the increases are evident in every medical setting, leaving researchers to wonder what mechanism causes the calendar-specific spikes.
“It’s speculated that psychological stress can make a difference,” Mr. Phillips said. “But to make a difference so quickly and so precisely bang-on Christmas and [New Year’s Day], for a huge range of diseases, makes it seem unlikely as a broad-scale explanation.”
Other explanations tested include emergency department overcrowding, winter travel, cold weather and substance abuse, none of which offered convincing evidence of driving the trend.
http://nationalpost.com/news/christmas-the-deadliest-day-of-the-year-study
Postmedia News, with files from Adam McDowell, National Post
Looks like someone just moved the goal posts.
-CryptoLutheran
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Tell that to the Israelite's killed for making a golden calf and dedicating to the Lord... God does not accept idol worship done in His name. Even the name Christ Mass is the ritual of killing Christ afresh, negating His one time atoning death on the cross.
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Christmas is a pagan holiday?!
Christmas is a Lawful Federal Holiday, in special recognition of Jesus the Christ's Birth.
The observance of that holiday, is by individuals who are Jesus the Christ believers.
A day off from working, for Federal employees, is granted by Federal Law.
There is no Federal mandate, requiring anyone to OBSERVE or PARTICIPATE in festivities that traditionally surround tribute to remembrance of or belief in Jesus the Christ.
Approximately 90 to 95% of people in the US participate traditional Christmas celebration festivities in their homes, whether or not they believe in Jesus the Christ.
So, no Christmas is not a pagan holiday.
Christmas is a lawful governmental holiday, specifically mandated as a tribute in recognition of Christ Jesus.
Not surprising, State governments and the people thereof such States, had lawful mandates recognizing Christmas as a State Holiday, before the Federal Government...
and such mandates, have zero control on whether or not a Christian or pagan participates in parties, festivities or traditions of Christians.
God Bless,
SBC
Christmas is a Lawful Federal Holiday, in special recognition of Jesus the Christ's Birth.
The observance of that holiday, is by individuals who are Jesus the Christ believers.
A day off from working, for Federal employees, is granted by Federal Law.
There is no Federal mandate, requiring anyone to OBSERVE or PARTICIPATE in festivities that traditionally surround tribute to remembrance of or belief in Jesus the Christ.
Approximately 90 to 95% of people in the US participate traditional Christmas celebration festivities in their homes, whether or not they believe in Jesus the Christ.
So, no Christmas is not a pagan holiday.
Christmas is a lawful governmental holiday, specifically mandated as a tribute in recognition of Christ Jesus.
Not surprising, State governments and the people thereof such States, had lawful mandates recognizing Christmas as a State Holiday, before the Federal Government...
and such mandates, have zero control on whether or not a Christian or pagan participates in parties, festivities or traditions of Christians.
God Bless,
SBC
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0
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