Christmas is a pagan holiday?!

[Tetra]

Basically, some Christians feel that if the day began as a pagan holiday, then it is somehow a spiritually adulterous proposition to say it is ok to celebrate it. In their minds, Christmas represents a merging of anti-thetical intentions and it thus taints the quality of any devotional properties it might have before God. I don't agree with it, but that is the essence of their concern.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Thanks for filling me in brother... however, to me that seems a bit odd, but to each his own I guess.

 

[Soyeong]

I'm on my phone and it auto corrected pegan to organ for some reason. I'm asking... why does the origin even matter? Who cares.

In Deuteronomy 12:31, God did not command them to repurpose pagan altars and to change pagan traditions to being about worshiping Him instead, but rather He commanded them to tear down pagan altars and to not worship Him in the same way that pagans worshiped their gods, so if the traditions that we are following have pagan origins, then we are worshiping God in a way that He does not want to be worshiped. If the goal of our celebration is to bring honor to God and if our heart is in the right place, then we should seek by faith to follow God's instructions for worshipping Him in the way that He wants to be worshiped rather than taking the attitude that we can worship God in whatever way we want and God should be happy with what He gets.

 

[Der Alte]

...Easter and Christmas are most certainly pagan holidays. But I would not get too bent up about it. The vast majority of Catholics and Christians as well as much of the un-believing world observes those ancient holidays. ...

Please provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence? Copy/pastes from random websites do not constitute such evidence.

 

[ToBeLoved]

In Deuteronomy 12:31, God did not command them to repurpose pagan altars and to change pagan traditions to being about worshiping Him instead, but rather He commanded them to tear down pagan altars and to not worship Him in the same way that pagans worshiped their gods, so if the traditions that we are following have pagan origins, then we are worshiping God in a way that He does not want to be worshiped. If the goal of our celebration is to bring honor to God and if our heart is in the right place, then we should seek to follow God's instructions for worshipping Him in the way that He wants to be worshiped than taking the attitude that we can worship God in whatever way we want and God should be happy with what He gets.

If there were pagan altars we would tear them down. But there are not, it is a holiday. So nothing to tear down physically and rebuild something else physically.

So now where is the Old Covenant text that talks about non-physical things that cannot be torn down? Because you are just gliding on a context of a physical object and Christmas is not an object.

 

[Soyeong]

If there were pagan altars we would tear them down. But there are not, it is a holiday. So nothing to tear down physically and rebuild something else physically.

So now where is the Old Covenant text that talks about non-physical things that cannot be torn down? Because you are just gliding on a context of a physical object and Christmas is not an object.

I have no idea where you are getting this stuff about physical or non-physical objects, so if it is confusing the matter, then just focus on the part that says that God does not want to be worshiped in the same way that pagans worshiped their gods.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thanks for filling me in brother... however, to me that seems a bit odd, but to each his own I guess.

You're welcome, bro! Have a good day.

2PhiloVoid

 

[2PhiloVoid]

In Deuteronomy 12:31, God did not command them to repurpose pagan altars and to change pagan traditions to being about worshiping Him instead, but rather He commanded them to tear down pagan altars and to not worship Him in the same way that pagans worshiped their gods, so if the traditions that we are following have pagan origins, then we are worshiping God in a way that He does not want to be worshiped. If the goal of our celebration is to bring honor to God and if our heart is in the right place, then we should seek by faith to follow God's instructions for worshipping Him in the way that He wants to be worshiped rather than taking the attitude that we can worship God in whatever way we want and God should be happy with what He gets.

...well, as far as I know, Christmas doesn't include sexual orgies done under the Christmas tree, and neither does it require the sacrificing of one's sons and daughters in the fire to Moloch along with all the gifts we bought them.

Somehow, I don't think God is offended by a green-tree with a bunch of ornamentation depicting various biblical notions of joy, faith, shepherds and Jesus, etc. Even a St. Nicholas here and there probably isn't really pushing the spiritual envelope all that far. But, that's my opinion.

(Yes, I'm being slightly sarcastic ... )

 

[ToBeLoved]

I have no idea where you are getting this stuff about physical or non-physical objects, so if it is confusing the matter, then just focus on the part that says that God does not want to be worshiped in the same way that pagans worshiped their gods.

Christmas is a day of celebration. We are not worshipping God in a pagan way or in anyway the same way as pagans worship their gods, whatever that is.

So explain to me how a date and day can be designated as pagan.

You brought in the confusion when you started talking about verses about tearing down an altar that physically exists and rebuilding and translating that verse or trying to over to Christmas.

 

[lesliedellow]

The day Jesus' birth was celebrated has to fall on some day of the year, and it may be that 25 December was chosen in order to facilitate the conversion of pagans. But paganism doesn't own the copyright on 25 December, and Christians are entirely free to celebrate a Christian festival on the day of the year, if they want to.

It never ceases to amaze me, the way in which fundamentalists will swallow atheist propaganda wholesale.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

there's nothing in scripture where we are commanded to commemorate Christ birthday so in the sense of it being seen as a Holy Day this would be a problem as man does not have authority to declare Holy Days.

we already have 52 days appointed to us in Scripture to celebrate Christ, though not particularly His birthday. rather, His entire life as far as the story of redemption is concerned.

as far as putting christmas on the same level of labor day, st. patrick's day, thanksgiving, or other civil observances, i'd see no problem with it. it becomes an issue once people say we're obligated to observe it and that the day is Holy.

applies the same to easter.

 

[Karl.C]

I'm going to get a tinny bit off topic in this post...

For the first 12 years of my life I was indoctrinated into the KH family via my fanatical JW mother (my father remained RCC but didn't interfere). Then my mother left the "truth" realising she had been deceived for eighteen years. In the aftermath my parents split...leaving me confused...Thank god for my dad!

My dad's mum was a fanatical RCC but all of her children married CoE. Now back in the day, she wanted everyone home for Christmas but she realised that wasn't gonna happen as her kids had kids. So she compromised. Usually, sometime in January when everyone was available we had "a family Christmas", exchanged presents and remembered old friends departed or absent.

My dad once explained that he likewise compromised with my mother - amusingly via the influence of an elderly JW couple. Dad explained that before I was born & for a little while after my mum became a JW, he'd celebrate Christmas with my elder brothers (buy presents) and mum would disappear for the day. Then one year he was flat broke, had no money to buy presents and my brothers got hostile about the fact. End of December 25th festivities in our household.

But dad didn't neglect us, following the advice of the elderly JW couple he implemented "surprise days" in our family. When he had money to spare we had "surprise days" multiple times a year. If things were tough, well... It gave me something to constantly look forward to...don't know when, but fully anticipated with joy...bit like the awaiting of the return of Christ...

Moral of my tale: December 25th is firstly a compromise date for the warring factions of early Christianity, and secondly a compromise date for converted Jews & Gentiles to share their wholesome traditions with the Church as a sign of unity...

 

[Soyeong]

Christmas is a day of celebration. We are not worshipping God in a pagan way or in anyway the same way as pagans worship their gods, whatever that is.

So explain to me how a date and day can be designated as pagan.

You brought in the confusion when you started talking about verses about tearing down an altar that physically exists and rebuilding and translating that verse or trying to over to Christmas.

I never said that the date and day can be pagan, and in fact I said that there is absolutely nothing wrong with celebrating Christmas as a time of joy, or goodwill, or spending time with family, and rejoicing in our Savior's birth. The issue has to do with traditions that are associated with Christmas that do not have their origin in Christianity, and if we are following such traditions on Christmas, then we are worshiping God in the same way that the pagans worshiped their gods.

As the Israelites were entering the land, they would have come across pagan altars and some would have no doubt thought that it seemed like a perfectly good altar that they could repurpose to worship God instead, but God did not want them to do this, and instead instructed them to tear down pagan altars. The same would have gone coming across pagan traditions that seemed like a perfectly good tradition that they could repurpose to worship God instead, but again God did not what them to do this. So likewise if we see a pagan tradition that seems like it could be a good way to worship God, then we should not incorporate that into our worship of God.

 

[Blade]

Well since my Father made each day.. what some man did on some day.. has not more power then my Father. This (pick the day) is the day the lord has made.. I will rejoice and be glad in it.

Now.. what you do is between you and Him.. not here to please man. Yet... for me.. if I was around someone that thought it was wrong.. I would not do anything on that day. Next year with me and my family I would. For me.. I am remembering His birth in which ALL heaven rejoiced.. I LOVE IT! Man.. we should do it EVER DAY! Praise you JESUS! Thank you for coming.. dying and rose.. setting us free.. I praise you

 

[ViaCrucis]

It seems as though December 25th is the birthday of the deity Tammuz.

False.

Semiramis's/The Queen of Babylon's son

Also false.

- which is the reincarnation of Nimrod.

Also false.

Jesus was born in September supposedly

And Jesus was born in March, June, December, or January -- supposedly. Because we don't know.

It's pretty crazy how Pagan Christmas is

Except it isn't.

"The Christmas tree is based on mythology that originated in Babylon. For those who do it in the traditional manner, the Yule Log is thrown onto the fire on Christmas Eve, representing death and destruction. Then on Christmas Day there is the tree, covered in decorations and surrounded with presents, representing new life, the resurrected Nimrod."

All of this is utterly false.

1) Babylonians didn't have Christmas trees. In fact nobody had Christmas trees until the late middle ages (~1400-1500 AD) in Germany.

2) The Yule Log is an early modern practice, the earliest clear attestation to this folk practice is the 17th century. That's AD by the way. Note also, so far, that we are talking about two folk practices that are only superficially connected to the Feast of Christ's Nativity.

3) And finally the most ridiculous claim, that the tree, decorated, with presents around it, represents "the resurrected Nimrod" said so matter-of-factly that one might assume the point is to be intentionally satirical or ironic if it wasn't that it seems to be actually believed by the most ignorant of history. So, yeah, the act of having gifts around the Christmas tree is another very recent tradition, a product of America's immigrant culture. Dutch immigrants and Dutch Americans from the 18th century retained the traditional Dutch observances of St. Nicolas Day, including the exchanging of gifts, in the US this ultimately contributed to the great American melting pot, and this particular Nicolas Day practice seems to have become a Christmas practice as well in the 19th century, and only began to become truly popular as the popularity of Christmas as a time of familial intimacy developed in the mid-19th century, one of the largest influences on this was Charles Dicken's A Christmas Carol. And you can thank industrialization and the growth of global communications and commercialization for the increasing homogeneity of Christmas practices being more common in other parts of the world.

Now you might be asking why I'm flippantly dismissing the whole Nimrod/Semiramis/Tammuz stuff, because it may seem that I should at least explain why I'm being so dismissive of this:

The simple answer is that there is precisely no evidence for any of these claims. That is, there is no reason to connect Nimrod to Semiramis, Semiramis was a legendary queen, but not of Babylon, but rather Assyria. Her husband was Ninus. There were some in antiquity who thought that perhaps the legendary King Ninus of Assyria may have been the Nimrod mentioned in the Bible, but this was a purely speculative connection that has no substantiation in history (or Scripture) itself. And how about Tammuz being the son of Semiramis? Well, see that again has no connection to anything remotely based in reality (or, in this case, to the actual myths, legends, and stories concerning Semiramis or Tammuz); in actual stories of Tammuz he is the son of Ea/Enki and Duttur/Durtur, for example here is a passage from the Dream of Dumizid (Tammuz),

"His heart was full of tears as he went out into the countryside. The lad's heart was full of tears as he went out into the countryside. Dumuzid's heart was full of tears as he went out into the countryside. He carried with him his (1 ms. adds: shepherd's) stick on his shoulder, sobbing all the time: 'Grieve, grieve, o countryside, grieve! O countryside, grieve! O marshes, cry out! O ...... crabs of the river, grieve! O frogs of the river, cry out! My mother will call to me, my mother, my Durtur, will call to me, my mother will call to me for five things, my mother will call to me for ten things: if she does not know the day when I am dead, you, o countryside, can inform my mother who bore me. Like my little sister may you weep for me.'"

This Nimrod-Semiramis-Tammuz stuff is pure poppycock invented almost entirely from thin air by ignorant and wildly imaginative people like Alexander Hislop in the 19th century.

None of it is true, all of it is made up. It does not reflect the actual beliefs of those ancient people, these are not the myths they believed, all the connections and claims are not even derived from bad interpretations or misunderstandings of these myths, but are entirely made up, created from thin air, it is complete hogwash.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hethatreadethit]

I happened to read up online that Christmas is a pagan holiday that the Catholic church adopted to convince pagans to join their church. That it actually originally worshiped the Sun God or something like that.

Is it true? And if so, are we not to celebrate Christmas?

This troubles me because I have always looked at Christmas a time of joy, of goodwill, of spending time with family. And even though I didn't grow up that religious, I do recall praying in front of the Christmas tree on Christmas Eve one year to God. And I felt really good doing so, I thought He was listening.

Plus...my family celebrates and meets on Christmas and I don't really get to see the one side of my family until Christmas.

So yeah, what do you think? What is the truth?

It really is not a secret, just google it and you can find a lot of facts about Christmas.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It really is not a secret, just google it and you can find a lot of facts about Christmas.

Noting that a lot of "facts about Christmas" on the internet aren't facts at all, but popular misconceptions and straight up modern fabrications.

This is a case where something more than a simple Google search is necessary. Being able to discern through critical thinking and analysis, as well as insisting on citations and rigorous historical investigation is necessary. The "Christmas is pagan" meme is popular, but doesn't hold up under serious scrutiny and historical analysis. It's a bit like the whole "Columbus set out to prove the earth was round, because everyone in Europe believed the earth was flat" meme--it's simply not true, it's a popular misconception, but it's simply not true.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ToBeLoved]

there's nothing in scripture where we are commanded to commemorate Christ birthday so in the sense of it being seen as a Holy Day this would be a problem as man does not have authority to declare Holy Days.

we already have 52 days appointed to us in Scripture to celebrate Christ, though not particularly His birthday. rather, His entire life as far as the story of redemption is concerned.

as far as putting christmas on the same level of labor day, st. patrick's day, thanksgiving, or other civil observances, i'd see no problem with it. it becomes an issue once people say we're obligated to observe it and that the day is Holy.

applies the same to easter.

So then you advocate for us dropping Christmas as a religious holiday and Easter, preferring to only worship God on Sundays?

Why then would you not advocate for worshipping God all days , which would then include Christmas and Easter?

Or do you think God only deserves worship every 7th day and not every day?

 

[Jesus4Ever]

So then you advocate for us dropping Christmas as a religious holiday and Easter, preferring to only worship God on Sundays?

Why then would you not advocate for worshipping God all days , which would then include Christmas and Easter?

Or do you think God only deserves worship every 7th day and not every day?

Actually the Sabbath Day is a day of rest, not just a day of worship. Of course you should worship and pray to Him everyday.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Please provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence? Copy/pastes from random websites do not constitute such evidence.

YHWH Says So. He Has The Best Credibility of Anyone.

 

[Jesus4Ever]

I never said that the date and day can be pagan, and in fact I said that there is absolutely nothing wrong with celebrating Christmas as a time of joy, or goodwill, or spending time with family, and rejoicing in our Savior's birth. The issue has to do with traditions that are associated with Christmas that do not have their origin in Christianity, and if we are following such traditions on Christmas, then we are worshiping God in the same way that the pagans worshiped their gods.

As the Israelites were entering the land, they would have come across pagan altars and some would have no doubt thought that it seemed like a perfectly good altar that they could repurpose to worship God instead, but God did not want them to do this, and instead instructed them to tear down pagan altars. The same would have gone coming across pagan traditions that seemed like a perfectly good tradition that they could repurpose to worship God instead, but again God did not what them to do this. So likewise if we see a pagan tradition that seems like it could be a good way to worship God, then we should not incorporate that into our worship of God.

So technically we coul still decorate and celebrate christmas as long as we didn't use it to worship God?