Christians & Guns

[Apologist]

Originally posted by tamtam92

Do you think that, according to the new testament, guns are a good thing ? Didn't Jesus tell Peter not to use his sword and heal Malchus' ear ?

That's a bad argument. Jesus told Peter to put away his sword because it was Christ's hour and Peter was trying to change that.

Luke 22:35-38 says otherwise about defending ourselves:

And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?”
So they said, “Nothing.”
36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.”
38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.”
And He said to them, “It is enough.”

Let's also see what God says about self defense in exodus 22:2

If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.

 

[tamtam92]

I must admit that i don't really understand why Jesus wants his disciples to take swords and then not to use it.

Nonetheless, i think that loving his ennemies doesn't match with carrying guns. How can you dare to shoot someone you're supposed to love, even if you don't kill him ?
I'm sure that in France most people (who are not christians) would agree that this right to carry a gun is at the origin of multiple crimes. Less guns, less crimes. That's logical. If no-one owns a gun, where can the criminals steal it ?

Besides, i think a gun is far more dangerous than a sword.
And violence generates violence, not love...

 

[Texas Lynn]

Originally posted by tamtam92
this right to carry a gun is at the origin of multiple crimes. Less guns, less crimes. That's logical. If no-one owns a gun, where can the criminals steal it ? 

Gun rights advocates have a slogan about this:  'When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns'.  It has some validity.

I do not oppose roadblocks to gun ownership like the Brady Bill, or limitations on rights of certain classes of individuals to own guns (in the U.S. according to the Lautenberg Amendment, convicted domestic violence offenders are essentially barred from owning guns for life) but I do not believe outlawing guns is the answer either. 

 

[Outspoken]

"There's no getting around the fact that guns are designed with one purpose in mind: to tear holes in living flesh."

So? Its called I like to eat deer.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"There's no getting around the fact that guns are designed with one purpose in mind: to tear holes in living flesh."

So? Its called I like to eat deer.

Mir auch!

 

[Outspoken]

"Mir auch!"

And that means?

 

[tamtam92]

There's a difference between hunting and protecting oneself.
Personally I don't know how is hunting (i just think they don't have enough restrictions in France ).
And i don't think that a gun is necessary to protect oneself.

 

[aaron]

Originally posted by tamtam92
I must admit that i don't really understand why Jesus wants his disciples to take swords and then not to use it.

Nonetheless, i think that loving his ennemies doesn't match with carrying guns. How can you dare to shoot someone you're supposed to love, even if you don't kill him ?
I'm sure that in France most people (who are not christians) would agree that this right to carry a gun is at the origin of multiple crimes. Less guns, less crimes. That's logical. If no-one owns a gun, where can the criminals steal it ?

Besides, i think a gun is far more dangerous than a sword.
And violence generates violence, not love...

Ok let me ask you this. Lets say man never invented the gun and do not know how to make it or we some how got rid of all knowledge of guns, would not the number of crimes with other weapons, such as the sword, go up? You should easily be able to answer that. YES

So know guns are not the problem it is mankind and sin.

 

[aaron]

Originally posted by seebs
Er, no. Look at the statistics; the people using guns to kill other people are generally breaking the law *already*; stolen guns, for instance.

In most (all?) of the U.S., you are legally required to have a permit to have a gun. I am not aware of anywhere where this is not the case.

The problem isn't the people who get a license and keep a gun. The problem is people who will get one anyway.

I don't believe you have to have a permit to own a gun. You are Supposed to have it registered though. You do have to have a permit to have certain guns and to have one concieled. I am not positive about this but am pretty sure. Gunnysgt I know you would know so let me know if I am right or wrong.

 

[aaron]

Originally posted by laumelilu
First of all... no i do not know this 15 year old who has so heavily researched the use of guns. Does that matter???... so he has done some research on Guns for a highschool project does that mean he can stand up and say i am more important than you, and as a result i will hurt you or even kill you. Humans have NO RIGHT EVER to take another persons life, we have NO RIGHT to cause a nother life suffering. That is for God to do. Not us. If we do however try and justify this so called "protection and God Given right" we are in turn becoming a criminal ourself.


p.s. By the way Aaron.. if i was to be the victim of a rape... which mind you i think is a crime worse than murder in the eyes of a human, i have known many rape victims, and i think it is the worst thing that can happen to anyone.
But if i was in that situation, i would not be sitting back there and saying hmm wah wah i'll just go along with it... thats just being stupid. i would struggle yes, i would scream yes, I may even throw a few punches and kicks.. But i would in no way ever justify pulling out a weapon to bring harm to that person, a weapon that once revealed is clear that you cannot beat it. I would tell my offender to leave me alone, I would hope that i would have the courage to talk and to tell that person that they didn't need to do this, and that they are loved.
By acting in hatred you are becoming as bad as your offender. You are playing into the hands of the devil.

I never did put myself above you and still do not. But however I do NOT put me below you. It sounds like you are reading what I have to say and paying no attention to it relevence. Did not God make me just as intelligent as you? So shouldn't my age make little difference about what I say. DO NOT bring my age into this. By you doing so you (in my opinion) are bringing yourself even lower.

does that mean he can stand up and say i am more important than you, and as a result i will hurt you or even kill you.

Where did I say that I will hurt you or even kill you? You have given me know reason too and never will. The only way you would is if you were to try to harm me, family, or friends. God does not want us pushed around by others. We are to stand up to them. If we back down they will just push harder. Also, I will ask you again, If we are killed how are we to witness to them or others?

Also, you said that you would talk to the rapist. Do you really think he will listen to you. If he was going to listen to you he wouldn't be doing it. He does it because you mean nothing to him. His mind is messed up and is not going to listen to anyone.

Aaron

 

[Outspoken]

"Personally I don't know how is hunting "

Well you go try bow hunting then take a gun and try that and you tell me which one you could survive on..lol

 

[repentandbelieve]

Originally posted by TankGirl
I have been reading the thread on handguns for protection, and have read similar threads in the past, and never become involved in them. This is mainly because I'm British & we live in a generally gun-free culture, and so I find it very dificult to understand the perspectives put forward in these threads.

But I do have some genuine questions which I have never seen covered by these threads, so I hope you will bear with me, and perhaps provide some answers.

Can I say right at the very start that I have absolutely no intention of offending anyone, or knocking anyone else's culture or beliefs. I really am completely genuine in asking these questions, and I do not in anyway wish to start up a debate about gun control, politics, history or any of the other topics raised in other threads.

Please understand that I am coming from a culture that is very different from the US culture regarding guns, and all I want to do is try & establish in my own mind whether there is any noticable difference between the general attitudes of Christians in contrast with the general public with regard to the gun issue. If so, why; and if not, why?

So what I want to know is:

What do you feel (in detail, please!) is the Biblical perspective on weapons/self-defense?

What do you feel would be Jesus perspective?

How do you feel the issue of loving your enemy and those who would seek to hurt you fits?

I have tried really hard to word this so it doesn't cause offense, and I hope I have not caused anyone to feel insulted. If I have, I apologise unreservedly, and ask that you would please know that that was not my intention. As a Brit, I plead total ignorance of the political & cultural issues involved, and am really only interested in the points laid out above. If that is insensitive of me, again I apologise. I really do hope that this can be an interesting discussion, and not become heated or sidetracked.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read (and consider!) the random thoughts of a foreigner!

Peace.

 

 Dear Tank Girl.

I can tell from your post that you are a very sweet and sensitive person.   

The 22nd chapter of Luke (where Jesus is arrested) gives enough light to provide an answer to the question, should Christians possess weapons for self defense?.

Verse 49 reads:

When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said "Lord, should we strike with our swords" and one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

What this tells us is that Jesus' followers were armed with weapons for self defense. Not only were they "packing heat" but they were fully capable of using it if need be.

These followers of Jesus had traveled with Him for quite a period of time. Doesn't it stand to reason that if Jesus was opposed to them carrying swords He would have told them so and they would not have been armed?

The follower of Jesus who used the sword to defend his lord is identified as Peter in the book of John 18:10.

In John 18:11 Jesus commanded Peter to put the sword away so that the Fathers will would come to pass.

May God Bless you Tank Girl.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"Mir auch!"

And that means?

Es ist deutsch=it is German.  Mir auch=muself also.  In French it's "moi aussi".  It is an expression of agreement.

 

[laumelilu]

My advice...

Go see Bowling for Columbine (Micheal Moore Film).....

Laume