Christian's claims about the Church

[Introverted1293]

Christians are always telling people that it is wrong to criticize the church, and yet they are constantly criticizing the church themselves. They are constantly saying that the church is bowing down to the culture. Of course, I don't see it. I still see Christians protesting against this or that, and they are always talking about how evil certain people are. And now they are saying that the church is starting to bow down to the culture. All I am saying it is confusing.

What is confusing is that they tell us that we are not to criticize other Christians, and yet they do it themselves.

I don't understand that.

 

[miamited]

Hi introverted,

Just goes to show that despite our best efforts, we're all still sinners.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Norbert L]

Christians are always telling people that it is wrong to criticize the church, and yet they are constantly criticizing the church themselves. They are constantly saying that the church is bowing down to the culture. Of course, I don't see it. I still see Christians protesting against this or that, and they are always talking about how evil certain people are. And now they are saying that the church is starting to bow down to the culture. All I am saying it is confusing.

What is confusing is that they tell us that we are not to criticize other Christians, and yet they do it themselves.

I don't understand that.

The short answer is, it possible to expect a HUGE group of people to all be completely homogeneous in their beliefs?

Since the beginning the Church has always found itself in a position where an unspecified number of people will identify with Christianity but will act and behave in a way that does not align with the intent of how Jesus would have us lead our lives. "They are like dirty spots in your special Christian meals you share. They eat with you and have no fear, caring only for themselves. They are clouds without rain, which the wind blows around. They are autumn trees without fruit that are pulled out of the ground" Jude 12 NCV

It's not so far apart from secular society either with politics, political alignment and of course Christians engage in these things too.

 

[HTacianas]

Christians are always telling people that it is wrong to criticize the church, and yet they are constantly criticizing the church themselves. They are constantly saying that the church is bowing down to the culture. Of course, I don't see it. I still see Christians protesting against this or that, and they are always talking about how evil certain people are. And now they are saying that the church is starting to bow down to the culture. All I am saying it is confusing.

What is confusing is that they tell us that we are not to criticize other Christians, and yet they do it themselves.

I don't understand that.

The Church has been criticized by Christians since the beginning. That's the reason for the great Councils. If the Church, or more rightly leaders within the Church, turn toward heresy, it is the Church that corrects it.

That correction only comes after criticism.

 

[Sabertooth]

It is a balancing act. (Grace makes the difference.)

In Matthew 7, Jesus talked about two types of judgment.

1. “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." Matthew 7:1-2 NKJV
2. “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them." Matthew 7:15-20 NKJV

 

[Tolworth John]

Christians are always telling people that it is wrong to criticize the church, and yet they are constantly criticizing the church themselves. They are constantly saying that the church is bowing down to the culture. Of course, I don't see it. I still see Christians protesting against this or that, and they are always talking about how evil certain people are. And now they are saying that the church is starting to bow down to the culture. All I am saying it is confusing.

What is confusing is that they tell us that we are not to criticize other Christians, and yet they do it themselves.

I don't understand that.

May I suggest that you ask them where it says that in the bible.?

I am not aware of any verses that say don't criticise.
There are verse that say if you judge others be sure to make a right, that is a truly just judgement.
If making a judgement based on one's own bias, be prepared to be judged by that same bias.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Christians are always telling people that it is wrong to criticize the church, and yet they are constantly criticizing the church themselves. They are constantly saying that the church is bowing down to the culture. Of course, I don't see it. I still see Christians protesting against this or that, and they are always talking about how evil certain people are. And now they are saying that the church is starting to bow down to the culture. All I am saying it is confusing.

What is confusing is that they tell us that we are not to criticize other Christians, and yet they do it themselves.

I don't understand that.

You might have to name a name and identify who is specifically doing this ...

I for one insist on ecumenical 'tolerance' and often refrain from criticizing harshly other Christians, but sometimes I might say something. Am I a hypocrite for doing so?

 

[Introverted1293]

You might have to name a name and identify who is specifically doing this ...

I for one insist on ecumenical 'tolerance' and often refrain from criticizing harshly other Christians, but sometimes I might say something. Am I a hypocrite for doing so?

No, I didn't mean to call anybody a hypocrite.

Anyways, I have a belief that there is a little bit of hypocrisy in all of us, even though we can claim that there is none in us. For example, nobody likes to be talked crap about, right. Well maybe there are some people who doesn't really care, but in general most people don't like it when people talk crap about them. But we sometimes talk crap about other people, especially when we're angry at that person. But I'm sure there are exceptions.

But on social media, if somebody was to talk about how they have a problem with the church, and I'm talking about Facebook and YouTube, they get some people saying, "the Bible is very clear on talking crap about the church." And yet, they will be going around talking about how the church is losing influence because they are bowing down to the culture. People have become cowards in the church they will say. It is very confusing.

 

[Introverted1293]

May I suggest that you ask them where it says that in the bible.?

I am not aware of any verses that say don't criticise.
There are verse that say if you judge others be sure to make a right, that is a truly just judgement.
If making a judgement based on one's own bias, be prepared to be judged by that same bias.

Well, I guess it doesn't say that in the Bible. In fact, we it says that we are supposed make judgments, as long as they are righteous judgments, within the church. It is those outside the body that we are not supposed to judge by Christian standards. This is in 1st Corinthians, or 2nd Corinthians. I forgot which one. Lol

 

[paul1149]

They are constantly saying that the church is bowing down to the culture. Of course, I don't see it. I still see Christians protesting against this or that,

The visible church is quite capable of playing on both sides of the fence at the same time. While the corruptive influence of the culture can easily be found in the church, there are some who do take stands against the culture. Would that the church would be purer, but each of us is on a journey to sanctification. And some in the church aren't Saved at all.

As for criticism and disagreements, there is a place for them. Paul criticized Peter at Antioch, for instance (Gal 2). Major differences led to resolution at the Council at Jerusalem (Acts 15). The trick is to differentiate between constructive criticism and the other kind.

 

[Introverted1293]

The visible church is quite capable of playing on both sides of the fence at the same time. While the corruptive influence of the culture can easily be found in the church, there are some who do take stands against the culture. Would that the church would be purer, but each of us is on a journey to sanctification. And some in the church aren't Saved at all.

As for criticism and disagreements, there is a place for them. Paul criticized Peter at Antioch, for instance (Gal 2). Major differences led to resolution at the Council at Jerusalem (Acts 15). The trick is to differentiate between constructive criticism and the other kind.

Thank you very much. I understand that.

That is very helpful.

 

[Introverted1293]

It is a balancing act. (Grace makes the difference.)

In Matthew 7, Jesus talked about two types of judgment.

1. “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." Matthew 7:1-2 NKJV
2. “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them." Matthew 7:15-20 NKJV

Thank you very much. Those verses makes sense of everything.

 

[Introverted1293]

The Church has been criticized by Christians since the beginning. That's the reason for the great Councils. If the Church, or more rightly leaders within the Church, turn toward heresy, it is the Church that corrects it.

That correction only comes after criticism.

That was very informative. Thank you very much

 

[Josheb]

Christians are always telling people that it is wrong to criticize the church...

I think if you apply some discernment you will find there are those who say it is unilaterally wrong to judge the Church and there are those who say it is wrong to baselessly or unjustly judge the church. I would fall into the later, not the former.

I think you will also find most church-judging is not Church judging. There is only one Church; that is the body of Christ, the ekklesia (those called out of the world into service to God). That is not the same as congregations. The problem is we use the word, "church" to mean a whole bunch of things outside of scripture's usage. Those who judge churches are not judging the Church. Or at least they shouldn't be. Those who judge the Church are usually unfamiliar with the doctrine of Church holiness and what Christ's attribution on the Church means (they are often unfamiliar with the doctrine of Christ's impeccability, too, but that's tangential). This comes down to a fundamental difference in the respective doctrines of Ecclesiology.

Lastly, I think you'll also find that conduct is what is being judged. Where the institution is being judged over a given group's conduct that is wrong.

And all of it is all the more wrong when it occurs absent any evidence, which, sadly, is all too often and an indication that the judge is part of the problem to be solved. Hence...

Christians are always telling people that it is wrong to criticize the church, and yet they are constantly criticizing the church themselves.

Yes, that is called hypocrisy and hypocrisy is something decried throughout scripture. That is always an indication there's something wrong on the plaintiff or judge's end of the matter.

They are constantly saying that the church is bowing down to the culture. Of course, I don't see it. I still see Christians protesting against this or that, and they are always talking about how evil certain people are. And now they are saying that the church is starting to bow down to the culture. All I am saying it is confusing.

Yep.

What is confusing is that they tell us that we are not to criticize other Christians, and yet they do it themselves. I don't understand that.

If it is any consolation they don't understand it, either.

There have always been critiques and there have always been critics. Much of the content in Paul's epistles is critical. He's spending a lot of time and effort correcting bad conduct. One of the most remarkable facts is that rarely does he treat any of these wrongdoers as if they aren't ekklesia! Similarly, the schisms and reforms that have occurred throughout Church history are all based in some form of judgment. Presumably the outcomes were each and all in God's hands.

Then there is the challenge of the restoration movements of the 1800s. These sects began preaching 1) the Church is corrupt and 2) therefore in need of restoration and 3) they're the guys doing the restoration, 4) so come join them. In time large portions of Christendom took on this view under the auspices of non-denominationalism even though almost every single one of the eventually formed a different denom (or cult), thereby further fragmenting the Church, which was they very thing they were purported resolved to address and solve. As more time passed certain branches of Christendom formed their theology around this premise the Church is corrupt. Certain unnamed groups even went so far as to say the Church was not supposed to be involved in influencing social and politcal policy and practice. This increasingly took a large portion of the Church out of the civic arena and it wasn't until Francis Schaeffer's writings and consequently Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority that this changed.

Now, fifty+ years later there's this raging debate between those who understand theology and Church history as I've just summarized and those who don't.

 

[Introverted1293]

The short answer is, it possible to expect a HUGE group of people to all be completely homogeneous in their beliefs?

Since the beginning the Church has always found itself in a position where an unspecified number of people will identify with Christianity but will act and behave in a way that does not align with the intent of how Jesus would have us lead our lives. "They are like dirty spots in your special Christian meals you share. They eat with you and have no fear, caring only for themselves. They are clouds without rain, which the wind blows around. They are autumn trees without fruit that are pulled out of the ground" Jude 12 NCV

It's not so far apart from secular society either with politics, political alignment and of course Christians engage in these things too.

Thank you very much. That was actually very informative. Thank you for quoting that verse.

 

[Introverted1293]

I think if you apply some discernment you will find there are those who say it is unilaterally wrong to judge the Church and there are those who say it is wrong to baselessly or unjustly judge the church. I would fall into the later, not the former.

I think you will also find most church-judging is not Church judging. There is only one Church; that is the body of Christ, the ekklesia (those called out of the world into service to God). That is not the same as congregations. The problem is we use the word, "church" to mean a whole bunch of things outside of scripture's usage. Those who judge churches are not judging the Church. Or at least they shouldn't be. Those who judge the Church are usually unfamiliar with the doctrine of Church holiness and what Christ's attribution on the Church means (they are often unfamiliar with the doctrine of Christ's impeccability, too, but that's tangential). This comes down to a fundamental difference in the respective doctrines of Ecclesiology.

Lastly, I think you'll also find that conduct is what is being judged. Where the institution is being judged over a given group's conduct that is wrong.

And all of it is all the more wrong when it occurs absent any evidence, which, sadly, is all too often and an indication that the judge is part of the problem to be solved. Hence...

Yes, that is called hypocrisy and hypocrisy is something decried throughout scripture. That is always an indication there's something wrong on the plaintiff or judge's end of the matter.

Yep.

If it is any consolation they don't understand it, either.

There have always been critiques and there have always been critics. Much of the content in Paul's epistles is critical. He's spending a lot of time and effort correcting bad conduct. One of the most remarkable facts is that rarely does he treat any of these wrongdoers as if they aren't ekklesia! Similarly, the schisms and reforms that have occurred throughout Church history are all based in some form of judgment. Presumably the outcomes were each and all in God's hands.

Then there is the challenge of the restoration movements of the 1800s. These sects began preaching 1) the Church is corrupt and 2) therefore in need of restoration and 3) they're the guys doing the restoration, 4) so come join them. In time large portions of Christendom took on this view under the auspices of non-denominationalism even though almost every single one of the eventually formed a different denom (or cult), thereby further fragmenting the Church, which was they very thing they were purported resolved to address and solve. As more time passed certain branches of Christendom formed their theology around this premise the Church is corrupt. Certain unnamed groups even went so far as to say the Church was not supposed to be involved in influencing social and politcal policy and practice. This increasingly took a large portion of the Church out of the civic arena and it wasn't until Francis Schaeffer's writings and consequently Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority that this changed.

Now, fifty+ years later there's this raging debate between those who understand theology and Church history as I've just summarized and those who don't.

Thank you very much for taking the time to write that. And that makes a lot of sense. I may go to a congregation and experience people who weren't loving. I may experience people who are very unwelcoming. But what I don't have the right to do is judge the whole entire church because of that. And so I understand what you are saying.

I should read Paul's letters. I understand that he is constantly criticizing and critiquing the people in the church. That makes a lot of sense as well.

I guess I just need to read the Bible little bit more and see what it says about that. I haven't really been spending a lot of time in the Bible. Thank you very much for taking the time to write that. And for breaking it down for me.

 

[Josheb]

Thank you very much for taking the time to write that. And that makes a lot of sense. I may go to a congregation and experience people who weren't loving. I may experience people who are very unwelcoming. But what I don't have the right to do is judge the whole entire church because of that. And so I understand what you are saying.

I should read Paul's letters. I understand that he is constantly criticizing and critiquing the people in the church. That makes a lot of sense as well.

I guess I just need to read the Bible little bit more and see what it says about that. I haven't really been spending a lot of time in the Bible. Thank you very much for taking the time to write that. And for breaking it down for me.

Sounds commendable.

Note Paul actually openly affirms the existence of disagreements in the Church! In addressing the matter of woemn praying heads uncovered whe wrote,

1 Corinthians 11:17-19
"17But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. 19For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you."​

Earlier he had noted what we would consider the early seeds of sectarian ism (see 1 Cor. 1:10-17). These were good things, in part. Likely inevitable. The omni-attributed God knows that.

All of the Church's doctrines were established with much vigorous and prayerful debate. We must remember there was no institutional hierarchy in the beginning. It took the Church 400 years to sort out sound doctrine and establish what was heretical and what diversity was within the pale of orthodoxy. Nowadays we take these core doctrines for granting, thinking they have always been, but that is not wholly the case.

God purchased every single one of us but that purchase did not make us instantly sinless. Likewise, the Church is God's and God's alone but that does not make the total amalgam of its constituent elements (the redeemed and regenerate sinners) sinless. That happens on the other side of the grave when our salvation is made complete.

Until then we deal with sinners sinfully complaining about sinners, trying to sort those who do so justly out from those who do so unjustly, humbly realizing sometimes those who do so unjuustly is us .

 

[Tolworth John]

Well, I guess it doesn't say that in the Bible. In fact, we it says that we are supposed make judgments, as long as they are righteous judgments, within the church. It is those outside the body that we are not supposed to judge by Christian standards. This is in 1st Corinthians, or 2nd Corinthians. I forgot which one. Lol

So those who do crises to you about the 'church' or about Christians represent an opportunity to ask them,
why do the believe that and on what do they base there view of right and wrong'?

Most people's morality is based on Christian morality, so if they reject Jesus, yet use his morality who is the hypocrite?

 

[Introverted1293]

So those who do crises to you about the 'church' or about Christians represent an opportunity to ask them,
why do the believe that and on what do they base there view of right and wrong'?

Most people's morality is based on Christian morality, so if they reject Jesus, yet use his morality who is the hypocrite?

Right

Good point

 

[Introverted1293]

Sounds commendable.

Note Paul actually openly affirms the existence of disagreements in the Church! In addressing the matter of woemn praying heads uncovered whe wrote,

1 Corinthians 11:17-19
"17But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. 19For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you."​

Earlier he had noted what we would consider the early seeds of sectarian ism (see 1 Cor. 1:10-17). These were good things, in part. Likely inevitable. The omni-attributed God knows that.

All of the Church's doctrines were established with much vigorous and prayerful debate. We must remember there was no institutional hierarchy in the beginning. It took the Church 400 years to sort out sound doctrine and establish what was heretical and what diversity was within the pale of orthodoxy. Nowadays we take these core doctrines for granting, thinking they have always been, but that is not wholly the case.

God purchased every single one of us but that purchase did not make us instantly sinless. Likewise, the Church is God's and God's alone but that does not make the total amalgam of its constituent elements (the redeemed and regenerate sinners) sinless. That happens on the other side of the grave when our salvation is made complete.

Until then we deal with sinners sinfully complaining about sinners, trying to sort those who do so justly out from those who do so unjustly, humbly realizing sometimes those who do so unjuustly is us .

Thank you very much. And yes, I need to realize this myself. "That purchase did not make us instantly sinless" as you say is true, as I am starting to realize. Paul's letters reveal that there is going to be some problems in the church. And sometimes people in the church were selfish and they even fought with each other on doctrine. People in the early church had problems. But they were still Christians.