Christians being Persecuted in North America?

[Sasquatchit]

You have a funny idea of what constitutes "persecution".

Persecution isn't always violent!! It has different levels of subtleties all the way to violence.

 

[Sasquatchit]

Well said. How do you want to deny a whole group of tax paying adults the right to marry who they love and claim persecution when you're held legally accountable for it? Conservatives are slowly but surely losing the war against LGBTs and are now crying foul.

Hardly!

 

[Marius27]

Perhaps we should stop thinking of Christianity as being defined by positions on "homosexuality" and abortion. Since it isn't.

It shouldn't be, but these days that's all it seems to be. The obsession so many anti-gay Christians have with the homosexuality issue is mind baffling to me. Divorce, Greed, Adultery, Obesity, etc. are all SOOO much for destructive, and so much more common. They obsess over a minority population whose apparent crime is loving somebody romantically of the same-gender.

It's ridiculously stupid.

 

[Marius27]

How about this as much as some people in the LGBT movement has legitimate gripes they can also become as betty and intolerant than they let on. I heard a lot of people that become ex-gays get blacklisted and have been given death threats by some members of the gay community. Not all ex-gays are forced into being that way because some do it on their own.

Well, there is no such thing as "Ex-gay", however death threats are never justified.

 

[Marius27]

I find it interesting that people can change their gender and be applauded for it but when they try to change their orientation they will be seen as brainwashed.
]

You do realize Exodus International, the largest "Ex-gay" organization in the world just closed, because they admitted it's a sham and no one has ever changed their orientation right?

People can't actually change their biological gender. They can only change their body's appearance to reflect the identity their brain tells them there are. You can't change your sexual orientation. It's part of one's brain wiring.

 

[Armoured]

You do realize Exodus International, the largest "Ex-gay" organization in the world just closed, because they admitted it's a sham and no one has ever changed their orientation right?

People can't actually change their biological gender. They can only change their body's appearance to reflect the identity their brain tells them there are. You can't change your sexual orientation. It's part of one's brain wiring.

Weeeeel... its not quite as clear cut as that. I think it's safe to say one's tendencies are hard wired, but the fact that identical twins can be different orientations pretty clearly shows there's more to it than just how one is wired. In most cases, environment and experience almost certainly play a significant roll in determining one's orientation.

 

[Joykins]

I find it interesting that people can change their gender and be applauded for it but when they try to change their orientation they will be seen as brainwashed.

Attempting to change gender is much more successful and less psychologically harmful than attempting to change orientation. This is borne out by the studies. And even changing gender doesn't change orientation: this should tell you something.

 

[XtianAgain]

Hardly!

Check the polls. Acceptance for the LGBT community is becoming more and more a reality. Granted, we're not where we should be. But, we're a heckuva lot further along than we we were.

In 20 years from now people will look back at the gay marriage debate and laugh at those opposed to it. What side of history do you want to be on?

 

[jesse630]

I do believe in the Bible and what it says about sexuality. But I do believe that gays are the ones who are treated worse then Christians.

 

[GenetoJean]

I have never understood the either/or beliefs when it comes to where gender identity and sexual orientation comes from. I believe some people are that way from birth and I believe some people are that way because of circumstances in their life. However, the cause only matters to me in considering how to help a person live their life. In other words, it doesnt matter what the cause is, it only matters what can help a person live a happy productive life.

 

[jesse630]

I have never understood the either/or beliefs when it comes to where gender identity and sexual orientation comes from. I believe some people are that way from birth and I believe some people are that way because of circumstances in their life. However, the cause only matters to me in considering how to help a person live their life. In other words, it doesnt matter what the cause is, it only matters what can help a person live a happy productive life.

 

[Tinker Grey]

C.S. Lewis on Marriage from Mere Christianity:

Before leaving the question of divorce, I should like to distinguish two things which are very often confused. The Christian conception of marriage is one: the other is the quite different question — how far Christians, if they are voters or Members of Parliament, ought to try to force their views of marriage on the rest of the community by embodying them in the divorce laws. A great many people seem to think that if you are a Christian yourself you should try to make divorce difficult for every one. I do not think that. At least I know I should be very angry if the Mahommedans tried to prevent the rest of us from drinking wine. My own view is that the Churches should frankly recognise that the majority of the British people are not Christians and, therefore, cannot be expected to live Christian lives. There ought to be two distinct kinds of marriage: one governed by the State with rules enforced on all citizens, the other governed by the Church with rules enforced by her on her own members. The distinction ought to be quite sharp, so that a man knows which couples are married in a Christian sense and which are not.

I suspect that Jack might not approve of using this in support of Gay marriage, nevertheless...

 

[Marius27]

Weeeeel... its not quite as clear cut as that. I think it's safe to say one's tendencies are hard wired, but the fact that identical twins can be different orientations pretty clearly shows there's more to it than just how one is wired. In most cases, environment and experience almost certainly play a significant roll in determining one's orientation.

Nope. External environment doesn't, nor does experience. Pre-natal environment does, which is why twins can be different. But if one twin is gay, the other is much more likely to be then if they weren't twins.

Psychiatry and LGB people

Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences have any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation (Bell and Weinberg, 1978).

 

[Marius27]

I do believe in the Bible and what it says about sexuality. But I do believe that gays are the ones who are treated worse then Christians.

The Bible isn't as clear cut on this issue as people want to pretend it is. The Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, not English.

 

[Joykins]

I have never understood the either/or beliefs when it comes to where gender identity and sexual orientation comes from. I believe some people are that way from birth and I believe some people are that way because of circumstances in their life. However, the cause only matters to me in considering how to help a person live their life. In other words, it doesnt matter what the cause is, it only matters what can help a person live a happy productive life.

I agree. I also think etiology is unimportant compared to the fact that orientation for most people appears to be *fixed* from a very early age.

 

[Urbanredneck]

Actually, that is pretty muchwhat Rosa Parks, who was a trained activist, did, or what John Thomas Scopes did...deliberately created test cases of various kinds in order to run them by the courts.

Rosa Parks wasnt seeking fame or to drive a Christian business away. Rosa Parks was going after a serious issue, blacks being forced to sit in the back of the bus. No place are their signs saying gays must sit in the back of the bus.

Plus she wasnt a trained activist. She was just a person whom the activists found to be a good test case since she was a good, Christian woman.

But your right, it was a similar example.

 

[Zoness]

I think the "culture wars" are just an excuse for neo-conservative Christian political fronts to be paranoid and hostile towards anyone who doesn't believe in their precise ideology. I've not found evidence that anything that happens to Christians in North America can be called persecution.*

*No longer being the default cultural norm doesn't qualify as persecution, there seems to be confusion on that point.

 

[HonestTruth]

Are they and what examples can be provided of it? I've encountered several examples. The supreme court case regarding Catholic hospitals and providing abortions, but that seems to hinge on them accepting public funds, in which case I can see why issues have been raised.

Our Canadian brothers and sisters can help here, but I had also heard of a preacher in Canada(?) who was arrested for disagreeing with homosexuality. Google is of no help, could be a hoax.

Finally, the Christian couple in Oregon who was forced to shut down their shop for refusing to serve homosexuals.

My issue is, culture wars are messy affairs, on the whole, which group is suffering more at the others hands, gays or Christians? Persecution in the present times here in US, seems to be a topic that pops up a lot in my church, but to be honest, im not feeling it. It seems to me that Christians in this society operate from an advantage. So...are we really being persecuted, or are we doing the persecuting? Are other communities(Such as the gay rights community) hitting back with equal malice...or are things just getting caught up in a sloppy culture war?

Thoughts?

Christians persecuted in USA?

You must mean when Christadelphians, Quakers, Mennonites, and Annabaptists were persecuted for refusing to fight in the Civil War, WW I, WW II, Korea, and Vietnam. This in addition to the persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholic Workers, and other pacifist groups in 20th century conflicts.

When these genuine Christians were persecuted, many professing Christians applauded. In fact, during Vietnam right wingers called them "communists" who were loyal to Moscow rather than to Jesus and biblical teaching.

 

[HonestTruth]

Well to me persecution is something along the lines of concentration camps and lions. Im articulating the view of the church I attend for arguments sake.

If you have the time and inclination, do a research study on pacifists and the persecution they suffered at the hands of the government when they protested against war. That more closely parallels what the Romans did than the petty arguments being used by right wingers today.

 

[Armoured]

Nope. External environment doesn't, nor does experience. Pre-natal environment does, which is why twins can be different. But if one twin is gay, the other is much more likely to be then if they weren't twins.

Psychiatry and LGB people

Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, [B ]there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences have any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation[/B] (Bell and Weinberg, 1978).

Mate, I appreciate what you're saying, but I was a nurse until a few years ago, and fairly well across the literature on this subject, and I think you'd do well to look for sources more recent than 1978. Until '07, at least, the consensus has been that in utero AND post natal environment and experience play a factor. As does genetics. Like virtually all behavioural characteristics.