• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Christians ARE observing the Sabbath under the New Covenant

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by FreeAtLast, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. FreeAtLast

    FreeAtLast Messianic Jew

    298
    +253
    United States
    Messianic
    Private
    US-Others
    Bob, please stick to the OP topic, there are lots of others where we debate the Law in general, this one is specific. Thanks!
     
  2. kcmonseysr

    kcmonseysr Christian Zionist

    208
    +52
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Sorry. I'm not in the least bit impressed by your signature line :). Should I be?

    And it still remains that what you are trying to make these verses convey is simply your own (or maybe some other person's?) opinion - which opinion you are entitled to hold and I am entitled to reject.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  3. kcmonseysr

    kcmonseysr Christian Zionist

    208
    +52
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Ah! I was a little confused and was just addressing this as if you had maybe adopted the whole shebang as your very own child. Since I'm a bit of a hit and miss myself I can well understand her lack of interest in joining, but I suspect that it is our loss.
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

    +2,857
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    step 1. quote them

    1 Cor 7:10 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" and in the same verse "circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing" a Contrast between the moral law of God --that defines what sin IS -- as compared to ceremonial law.

    1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"

    Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of TEN... it is not the first commandment with a promise in the OT or in the books of Moses or in the book of Exodus.

    Both of these are examples of Bible details so obvious that BOTH sides of the Sabbath vs Sunday question admit to them as we see in my signature line.

    ===========================

    I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

    The Baptist Confession of Faith,
    the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
    D.L. Moody,
    R.C Sproul,
    Matthew Henry,
    Thomas Watson
    Eastern Orthodox Catechism
    The Catholic Catechism. :groupray:

    And of course 7th day groups

    The "detail" you are glossing over is that the Bible details listed above are so incredibly obvious that "both sides" of the debate admit to them.

    In other words -- this is "the easy part".
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

    +2,857
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    You have free will - you can reject all the Bible details you wish.. I am just pointing out that those particular Bible details are so obvious that almost all Christian Bible scholars admit to them no matter that they are on opposing sides of this topic.

    Your response is correct in that you can ignore anything you like.

    Your post points to no details in texts given... and only expresses a desire not to look which is fine... you have that option as always.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

    +2,857
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    Moses writes "Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made." Genesis 2

    Moses and God write -
    11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.



    Moses writes
    1. Do not make graven images Ex 20
    2. Do not take God's name in vain Ex 20:7
    3. Honor your parents Ex 20:12
    4. Do not murder Ex 20
    5. Do not lie Ex 20
    6. Love God with all your heart Deut 6:5
    7. Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18

    Christians choose not to live in rebellion against God's Word - as Paul reminds us in Rom 8:4-10.



    Am pointing out that Christians on both sides of that topic generally approve of the LAW of God as listed above -- there is no debate at all on those points - and am using that as common ground - we find that what God tells Moses to write is very specific about "the seventh day" just when your OP proposed it to be vague in a sort of "any day man picks will do" loose interpretation of the actual text.
     
  7. FreeAtLast

    FreeAtLast Messianic Jew

    298
    +253
    United States
    Messianic
    Private
    US-Others
    Thank you for sticking to the topic. Much appreciated.
    And actually no, you are wrong in your statement. The OP is not vague at all, it is Scripturally accurate and IS the actual text completely refuting your argument with it.

    You see, G-d says that Yeshua is greater than Moses. And Yeshua's New Covenant supersedes the Old Covenant Law of Moses. So, we are to rest in Yeshua, our Sabbath, TODAY and EVERY day, and by doing so, we are observing the Sabbath and being obedient to G-d's Word and commands. That is the OP.

    Hebrews 3
    3 For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. 4 (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is G-d.) 5 Now Moses was faithful in all G-d's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, 6 but Christ is faithful over G-d's house as a son. And we are his house, if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.

    12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living G-d. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15 As it is said,

    “Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”


    Hebrews 4
    5b “They shall not enter my rest.”
    6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,

    “Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts.”


    8 For if Joshua had given them rest, G-d would not have spoken of another day later on. 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of G-d, 10 for whoever has entered G-d's rest has also rested from his works as G-d did from his.
    11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

    Hebrews 10:1
    For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

    +2,857
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    You are welcome

    Hebrews 4 says the Sabbath "remains" as it was in Psalms 95


    Heb 4
    5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
    6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
    Today, if you will hear His voice, (Psalms 95)
    Do not harden your hearts.”
    8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

    Psalms 95
    6 Oh come, let us worship and bow down;
    Let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.
    7 For He is our God,
    And we are the people of His pasture,
    And the sheep of His hand.
    Today, if you will hear His voice:
    8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,
    As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
    9 When your fathers tested Me;
    They tried Me, though they saw My work.


    If it REMAINS just as it was in the time of David when Psalms 95 was written - well then -- what was it like then? Was it "pick any day you wish"???

    Was there any teaching by David that "Today, if you will hear His voice:
    8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion," really meant "pay no attention to the Bible Sabbath"???

    We all know it meant no such thing.

    ====================================================


    Hebrews 4 speaks of the 7th day Sabbath - the Bible Sabbath, the 7th day.

    Hebrews 4
    4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;

    Genesis 2:1-3
    Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

    Ex 20 "Remember the Sabbath day... the SEVENTH day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God...11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
     
  9. FreeAtLast

    FreeAtLast Messianic Jew

    298
    +253
    United States
    Messianic
    Private
    US-Others
    No, it does not say that at all, that is your take on it. it says ther eREMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of G-d and it is found in YESHUA, our Sabbath rest. It is even addressed as not being "as it was", but a better rest than the previous.

    Hebrews3
    8 For if Joshua had given them rest, G-d would not have spoken of another day later on. 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of G-d,

    Already shown that it does not exist as it was, it is NEW, according to the Scriptures. Your interpretation is not supported by Scripture.

    We all do not agree with you and YOU know it, this is simply goading and flaming.
     
  10. kcmonseysr

    kcmonseysr Christian Zionist

    208
    +52
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Hey, with such a deep and solid foundation under you, who could possibly gainsay you :) ? Not me, for sure...
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

    +2,857
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    You are welcome

    Hebrews 4 says the Sabbath "remains" as it was in Psalms 95


    Heb 4
    5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
    6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
    Today, if you will hear His voice, (Psalms 95)
    Do not harden your hearts.”
    8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

    Psalms 95
    6 Oh come, let us worship and bow down;
    Let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.
    7 For He is our God,
    And we are the people of His pasture,
    And the sheep of His hand.
    Today, if you will hear His voice:
    8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,
    As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
    9 When your fathers tested Me;
    They tried Me, though they saw My work.


    If it REMAINS just as it was in the time of David when Psalms 95 was written - well then -- what was it like then? Was it "pick any day you wish"???

    Was there any teaching by David that "Today, if you will hear His voice:
    8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion," really meant "pay no attention to the Bible Sabbath"???

    We all know it meant no such thing.

    ====================================================


    Hebrews 4 speaks of the 7th day Sabbath - the Bible Sabbath, the 7th day.

    Hebrews 4
    4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;

    Genesis 2:1-3
    Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

    Ex 20 "Remember the Sabbath day... the SEVENTH day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God...11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

    Yes it does which is why even in the OT Sabbath is predicted to continue to be for all mankind even for all eternity after the cross - in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23

    That's how it was for all mankind before sin entered the world - and that is how it will be in all eternity.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

    +2,857
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    You are claiming "there does NO LONGER remain the Sabbath rest as it was in Psalms 95 at the time of David -- rather a NEW Sabbath is no in place that replaces it"

    But then quoting a text that says it DOES remain as it was in Psalms 95 at the time of David.

    were we simply "not supposed to notice"??
     
  13. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

    +2,534
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Paul is using what David said, TODAY, if you will hear His Voice. He is asking why would David say that?
    David had the 7th day Sabbath, David was in the Promised land..

    Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

    +2,857
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    Paul says the same condition remains true at the time of his writing in Hebrews 4.

    He then says the "Sabbath remains" .. and the question "remains from what? " or "Remains from when" is answered - by him .. remains as it was at the time David wrote Psalms 95. That statement in Ps 95 did not "delete the 4th commandment" in David's day and saying that same thing -- speaking to that same condition and affirming that it still exists today - does not "delete the commandment of God today either"

    by contrast look at Hebrews 10 where "something is taken away" -- it says regarding sacrifices and offerings "he TAKES AWAY the first to establish the second".

    So then we have two contrasting examples. In Hebrews 4 the Sabbath "remains" for the people of God. In Hebrews 10 - the sacrifices and offerings are "taken away" at the cross.

    Very instructive for the unbiased objective reader.
     
Loading...