Christians and Muslims

[GodsoldierClintus]

No harm done.

 

[Nooj]

2) Islam is a peaceful religion - it is true there are passages telling them to infidels. Just as there are passages in the Bible where God tells Israel to wipe out entire nations and burn everything to the ground. Still the moral code given by Islam is probably not as high as the Christian one. However when I spoke to this guy he kept going no no - killing someone is bad.

There are violent verses in the Koran, and no Muslim denies that. But most Muslims deny that the Koran advocates violence in an unjust and unGodly manner, AKA against innocents and even against enemies they have strict rules about how a war is to be conducted.

What astounds me is this. Muslims say Islam is peaceful. Attackers of Islam claim that these peaceful Muslims aren't really Muslims, they aren't really following their religion as it truly is. It astounds me that non-Muslims can claim to know Islam better than the people who actually practice it. Do they think that Muslims somehow subconsciously ignore the violent verses or read over them whenever they read the Koran?

 

[charlie_hunter]

http://www.news.com.au/comments/0,23600,22662994-2,00.html

The above article are general comments responding to an article where a Muslim youth leader is talking about how more hatred and this enfranchisement (is that a word?) of Muslims will lead to radical extremists who will decide to go and be martyrs and go suicide bombing.

Cue response of "Leave this Country" and more virtol and hatred.

Recently as part of a missionary group at uni I met up with this Muslim guy and discussed our faiths. I do believe that it was more than a coincidence as the next day other missionaries also bumped into the same guy.

The thing is:
1) They are certainly more zealous about their faith. I mean that in a good way - meeting him challenged me a lot on my faith. I know that I'm right - but he prayed a lot more, fasted a lot more and was more dedicated to his faith then I was.
2) Islam is a peaceful religion - it is true there are passages telling them to infidels. Just as there are passages in the Bible where God tells Israel to wipe out entire nations and burn everything to the ground. Still the moral code given by Islam is probably not as high as the Christian one. However when I spoke to this guy he kept going no no - killing someone is bad. That's something that actually he couldn't grasp when I tried telling him about grace. I was like you know I know that I've sinned today before I spoke to you, and I probably will sin many more times before the end of the day. And he was like They do believe that good works will get them to heaven, but are never assured of their salvation, it all depends on the judgement of Allah. (God forbid I mention that on a Christian site) But what I got most out of these discussions was that - killing someone would pretty much mean you won't get to heaven (a very big difference then with extremist islam?)
He told me he wasn't even sure if Osama was Muslim.
3) So I get the sense that actually although they are more dedicated then we are, their faith and doctrines are a whole lot more confusing, and in the end contradict themselves. It's probably important to note what type of Muslim this guy was - his biggest problem with Jesus was that he wasn't the son of God, he *believed* in Jesus as a prophet and a great teacher - since his english wasn't very good I couldn't actually work out when I spoke about the Messiah of the Jewish Torah, whether he agreed with me or not that it was Jesus. I'm pretty sure he did, and took Mohammed to be "the Comforter" whereas we would say its the Holy Spirit.

Anyway back to the point. I agree with the Muslim guy in the article in saying their probably will be a terrorist attack in Australia. I actually said way back in 2001 - there would be one within 5 years, (hasn't happened thank God) because of our involvement in Iraq, and Afghanistan. It's going to happen - once again - it is going to be love that unties this whole mess.

Pray that we draw ourselves closer to God for this fight.

what this proves is that Muslims are not animals like some claim them to be, but men, like us. men of faith in the one God.

in time a greater threat will eclipse any historic struggle that Christians/Jews/Muslims had. that threat is the rise of one of the worlds youngest and most vocal religions...........athiesm. there should be strong dialouge between the 3 faiths. common ground should be agreed on and fought for. though we are different, we have more, rather than less in common with eachother.


i remember feeling a proud sense of unity when i read about a small Muslim outcry when a UK hospital tried to ban Bibles being placed in bedside draws. we can unite for peace.

 

[norbie]

what this proves is that Muslims are not animals like some claim them to be, but men, like us. men of faith in the one God.

in time a greater threat will eclipse any historic struggle that Christians/Jews/Muslims had. that threat is the rise of one of the worlds youngest and most vocal religions...........athiesm. there should be strong dialouge between the 3 faiths. common ground should be agreed on and fought for. though we are different, we have more, rather than less in common with eachother.


i remember feeling a proud sense of unity when i read about a small Muslim outcry when a UK hospital tried to ban Bibles being placed in bedside draws. we can unite for peace.

Thank you for a wonderful post reply. It has the same happened here in the Newcastle Diocese, when Moslims came to the dry Golbourne river near Muswellbrook, kneeled down in the dry riverbed and prayed for rain. And raining it was during the following week.
We must understand that Muslims and others, there believe is our old testament. And we all know what violence this was.

 

[ebia]

what this proves is that Muslims are not animals like some claim them to be, but men, like us. men of faith in the one God.

in time a greater threat will eclipse any historic struggle that Christians/Jews/Muslims had. that threat is the rise of one of the worlds youngest and most vocal religions...........athiesm. there should be strong dialouge between the 3 faiths. common ground should be agreed on and fought for. though we are different, we have more, rather than less in common with eachother.

And unless we try to genuinely understand each other we can't talk sensibly about what the differences are either. Don't pretend we are all the same where we are not, but neither pretend we are different where we are no.

i remember feeling a proud sense of unity when i read about a small Muslim outcry when a UK hospital tried to ban Bibles being placed in bedside draws. we can unite for peace.

Indeed. While there are some Muslim places in the world that ban bibles, there are many others where Muslims would frown on it being treated with disrespect; when we went to Pakistan we were warned not to put our bibles on the floor, for instance.

 

[ScMay]

Do they think that Muslims somehow subconsciously ignore the violent verses or read over them whenever they read the Koran?

They wouldn't be the first or last to use selective interpretation, besides that begs the questions of what the violent muslims do - do they subconcioulsy ignore the peaceful verses or manipulate the violent ones?

The Koran could be filled with a 100 verses about how you should not kill or hurt innocent people but all it would need is one verse saying something to the effect of "except for infidels, they're fair game" to be violent. Its also not hard for people to selectively ignore that verse in the light of the 100 others, but its also rather easy to disregard the 100 good verses based on that 1. I don't know what the Koran is filled with but I think thats what critics of Islam are saying.

 

[Nooj]

They wouldn't be the first or last to use selective interpretation, besides that begs the questions of what the violent muslims do - do they subconcioulsy ignore the peaceful verses or manipulate the violent ones?

Terrorists are falsely encouraged by religious leaders to ignore how war is supposed to be conducted. Even in those violent phrases in which they could find a precedent for their actions, there are stipulations that prohibit suicide, prohibit the killing of innocents, prohibit destruction of certain property.

They ignore the peaceful phrases, they ignore certain parts of those violent phrases and they ignore the historical context of those phrases, but then again I'm not surprised at the latter. How many Muslims would know that a verse was 'revealed' during a certain battle many hundreds of years ago?

The Koran could be filled with a 100 verses about how you should not kill or hurt innocent people but all it would need is one verse saying something to the effect of "except for infidels, they're fair game" to be violent.

Yes, the Koran is a violent book.

Its also not hard for people to selectively ignore that verse in the light of the 100 others, but its also rather easy to disregard the 100 good verses based on that 1. I don't know what the Koran is filled with but I think thats what critics of Islam are saying.

You can have a violent book/a book with violent phrases that still has morally good messages in it. The Bible for example. I don't think one morally reprehensible verse disqualifies the entire book. Unless you think the book has to be perfect, but I don't believe in Quranic or Biblical inerrancy.

 

[Monarchist]

Here is an insight in to me.
Some people are pathetic. Really. "Those darned Pentie evil doers and those Nasty exclusive brethren and there evil ways. Definetly not followers of God. They are despicable horrible stupid people"
BUT
those poor mis understood muslims
Give it a rest. Please dont compare the NEW TESTAMENT with the Old testament. Christ Taught peace at any cost. There can be no misinterpretations to that.
Uncomparable

How many Penties/Exclusive Brethrens carry guns .

 

[Nooj]

Please dont compare the NEW TESTAMENT with the Old testament.

Why not? The Bible is made up of the Old and the New Testament, you can't wave away the parts you don't like.

Christ Taught peace at any cost. There can be no misinterpretations to that.

As a monarchist, what would you have said to the British Empire then?

 

[GodsoldierClintus]

*walks quietly out of thread*

 

[Nooj]

Sorry, I got off-topic. I'll refrain.

 

[GodsoldierClintus]

No need to apologise! These threads meander along all the time anyway. So Nooj what attracts you to these boards on a Friday night?

 

[Nooj]

An extreme aversion to homework?

 

[Monarchist]

Why not? The Bible is made up of the Old and the New Testament, you can't wave away the parts you don't like.
As a monarchist, what would you have said to the British Empire then?

Hey Nooj. I would say to the British. Thats not very nice and you should not do that type of thing.
Wrong Monarchy, Wrong King.
There are two parts to the Bible-
Part 1, The Old Testament-Sorta history/rule book aimed at Gods chosen people, The Jews. Tooth for a tooth and eye for an eye type thing. For the Jews, not the Christians. A bit like the writing at the beginning of Star Wars was, but for Christians.
Part 2, New Testament- The story of Christ and Gods new plan for mankind. Totally different and a simpler set of guidelines. Not at all related to the Old Testaments ways.
I am not dismissing the Old Testament. It is simply not related to Christianity as a guideline. The Old Testament ended when Christ said "it is done"
Dont confuse the two books.
One is Jewish
One is Christian.

 

[norbie]

Hey Nooj. I would say to the British. Thats not very nice and you should not do that type of thing.
Wrong Monarchy, Wrong King.
There are two parts to the Bible-
Part 1, The Old Testament-Sorta history/rule book aimed at Gods chosen people, The Jews. Tooth for a tooth and eye for an eye type thing. For the Jews, not the Christians. A bit like the writing at the beginning of Star Wars was, but for Christians.
Part 2, New Testament- The story of Christ and Gods new plan for mankind. Totally different and a simpler set of guidelines. Not at all related to the Old Testaments ways.
I am not dismissing the Old Testament. It is simply not related to Christianity as a guideline. The Old Testament ended when Christ said "it is done"
Dont confuse the two books.
One is Jewish
One is Christian.

Halt it right there, if you study the Bible, Jesus told that he didn't come to do away with the OT - but to fullfill it. So let's not give other members and guest the wrong impression. The OT is very valid in our Christian Church, just for the record.

 

[Monarchist]

Valid? Valid in what way? Circumcision's? Blood atonement? Tooth for a Tooth? No Pork? No Shellfish, Buggah? Guilt/Sin/Fellowship offerings? Blah Blah Blah. Sorry Sunshine, whilst the stories do hold up the LAWS are for the Jews. I am not a Jew, Christ called me in as a Gentile. The same Christ who ended the laws with One sacrifice. Let there be no impressions. Christ fulfilled the Old Testament. We dont live under its laws. Understand? The OT is still there, just not valid to Christianity? Thumbs Up

 

[GodsoldierClintus]

Romans 8:3-4

v3 - for what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of the sinful man to be a sinful offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man
v4 - in order that the righteous of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

It says that the righteousness of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature by according to the Spirit.

the law is fulfilled by Christ and what he did on the cross. By the grace of God, through faith - we are saved. But the fruits of that reality in our lives is the fulfillment of the Law, through love of others through living a life through the Spirit. Although that love is not perfect - it is made perfect when we die/when Christ comes again. So by living in the Spirit - we actually fulfill the law, when we die. John Piper uses a good analogy when he says we fulfill the law via going in the right direction not perfection. This is explained by Paul time and time again in his letters.

There's a sermon by John Piper, on desiring God about this an he explains it very well. Alternatively there's a Salvation Army E-book on holiness which explains it very well too.

I didn't articulate it very well, it's better to listen to John Piper or read the E-book.

The OT is still very relevant because without the Old, the New does not make sense.

 

[norbie]

Valid? Valid in what way? Circumcision's? Blood atonement? Tooth for a Tooth? No Pork? No Shellfish, Buggah? Guilt/Sin/Fellowship offerings? Blah Blah Blah. Sorry Sunshine, whilst the stories do hold up the LAWS are for the Jews. I am not a Jew, Christ called me in as a Gentile. The same Christ who ended the laws with One sacrifice. Let there be no impressions. Christ fulfilled the Old Testament. We dont live under its laws. Understand? The OT is still there, just not valid to Christianity? Thumbs Up

I think there is more explanation needed. The OT is NOT finished it is uphold by Jesus. BUT the Jewisch Law IS FINISHED! And there is a big difference. Everything in the OT, from Genesis to the commandements, to the prophets, psalms proverbs and so on - it is all part of todays readings in the Eucharist. So the OT is a very important part of the Bible, but the jewisch law is finished.

"We dont live under its laws."

We live very much under its laws, example the ten commandements!

 

[Monarchist]

So you take only certain laws from the OT to add to your life and neglect those you dont want to apply?
While the Ten Commandments are a solid set of rules I can happily, as a Christian work on Sundays, because of the New Covenant Christ talked about.
New Covenant of Christ.
The Pharisees justified Christs death because he taught love not rules, subverting the Pharisees control over the people.

From Mathew
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

If you need the 10 Commandments to help lead your life that is not for me to argue. I dont, I have Christ, and my heart is dedicated to him as my savior. I am Baptised. I need nothing else.

 

[wantcharity]

hello
i'm a new member
i want to clarify some facts about islam
bacause the medias you see and hear launch several lies about islam and the great prophet mohammad(peace be upon him)
some principles
prophet=a person that GOD choose him to say to people that there is one GOD to these worlds and to worships with people one GOD and to follow the correct religion
1-Islam says to you that you must believe in ONE GOD
this GOD is able to do any thing he wants this GOD is completely diferent from anything he created so he has not any wife he has not any sons
all creatures are slaves of THE GREAT GOD
even mohammad (peace be upon him) is a slave of THE GREAT GOD mohammad (peace be upon him) worships one GOD
even christ (peace be upon him) is a slave of THE GOD
christ worships one GOD
all prophets worships one GOD
2- the second principles :Islam says to you that you must believe that mohammad(peace be upon him) is the prophet for all nations
mohamad (peace be upon him) is the greatest prophet but if you want to be muslim you must beleive that christ also is a prophet if you want to be muslim you must respect all the previous prophets
IF WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THE ONLY REAL RELIGION ISLAM AND THE PROPHET MOHAMMNAD
please think well and read the holy quran
i advice you to visit this
internet site islamway.com
in this site you find books in english and other languages
about islam and the prophet mohammad(peace be upon him)and his morals
i'm sorry for my weak english
lastly: i am muslim i must offer charity to all people