Christians and Muslims

[GodsoldierClintus]

http://www.news.com.au/comments/0,23600,22662994-2,00.html

The above article are general comments responding to an article where a Muslim youth leader is talking about how more hatred and this enfranchisement (is that a word?) of Muslims will lead to radical extremists who will decide to go and be martyrs and go suicide bombing.

Cue response of "Leave this Country" and more virtol and hatred.

Recently as part of a missionary group at uni I met up with this Muslim guy and discussed our faiths. I do believe that it was more than a coincidence as the next day other missionaries also bumped into the same guy.

The thing is:
1) They are certainly more zealous about their faith. I mean that in a good way - meeting him challenged me a lot on my faith. I know that I'm right - but he prayed a lot more, fasted a lot more and was more dedicated to his faith then I was.
2) Islam is a peaceful religion - it is true there are passages telling them to infidels. Just as there are passages in the Bible where God tells Israel to wipe out entire nations and burn everything to the ground. Still the moral code given by Islam is probably not as high as the Christian one. However when I spoke to this guy he kept going no no - killing someone is bad. That's something that actually he couldn't grasp when I tried telling him about grace. I was like you know I know that I've sinned today before I spoke to you, and I probably will sin many more times before the end of the day. And he was like They do believe that good works will get them to heaven, but are never assured of their salvation, it all depends on the judgement of Allah. (God forbid I mention that on a Christian site) But what I got most out of these discussions was that - killing someone would pretty much mean you won't get to heaven (a very big difference then with extremist islam?)
He told me he wasn't even sure if Osama was Muslim.
3) So I get the sense that actually although they are more dedicated then we are, their faith and doctrines are a whole lot more confusing, and in the end contradict themselves. It's probably important to note what type of Muslim this guy was - his biggest problem with Jesus was that he wasn't the son of God, he *believed* in Jesus as a prophet and a great teacher - since his english wasn't very good I couldn't actually work out when I spoke about the Messiah of the Jewish Torah, whether he agreed with me or not that it was Jesus. I'm pretty sure he did, and took Mohammed to be "the Comforter" whereas we would say its the Holy Spirit.

Anyway back to the point. I agree with the Muslim guy in the article in saying their probably will be a terrorist attack in Australia. I actually said way back in 2001 - there would be one within 5 years, (hasn't happened thank God) because of our involvement in Iraq, and Afghanistan. It's going to happen - once again - it is going to be love that unties this whole mess.

Pray that we draw ourselves closer to God for this fight.

 

[Monarchist]

The Koran is a tricky book. It infers Muhamed killed plenty of Jews.
The other problem comes from some of its teachers.
Not mixing New Testament with Old, There is no miss understanding Christ message. Forgive and forget. There is no room for revenge or violence. The Catholics raged a few wars built on (Christian)religion, based on there convert/soldiers complete lack of Christian understanding.

The koran on the other hand can lead a follower down the path of an Osama type terrorist or alternately a Mother Teressa. It all depends on who is teaching, and from what in the Koran they choose to use as a reference.
As a Christian and in a minority, I feel we come under constant attack from many secular sources for our beliefs. I dont consider that an excuse to hurt anyone.
In fact I have to accept it lovingly.

 

[norbie]

One thing I believe is for sure: they are more serious about theyr believe then us, not so lukewarm. Would a Christian right in the centre of Sydney Airport take his mat out and pray? Even if they get a little more 'moderner' in Australia, they still protect their woman and Moslim women are more modest then ours.
You could see this in Iraq: the two groups, the fighters and the opposite. The problem was the fighers had more money and so in power.
But basicly I do respect moslim and their religion which is simmuliar to our old testament.

 

[Monarchist]

I am pretty sure that the law for women in muslim countries, is a lot harsher than for the men.
A good flogging helps keep those pesky women in order.
Norbie how can you say muslim women are more modest than ours. My wife is fairly modest, she doesnt wear a sheet or anything, but modest like most Christian women I know.
Christ never told women to cover themselves from head to toe.
As for praying, why do I need a mat to pray on in an airport? Seriously, they are no more serious about there religion than a bell ringing, or a clanging drum.
True sacrifice is love for your oppressors, forgiveness,charity (hey GSC) and reverence of God, not laying on a mat at an Airport or touting a gun, threatening violence.
Muslims worship a moon God and are no way similar to Jews.

 

[GodsoldierClintus]

Hmm,

I think what Norbie meant by praying on a mat is that they would do it in public, and not care what anybody else thought. Whereas Christians are a lot less willing to be so open with their faith. Every Muslims fasts 40 days a year from sun up to sun down. And they do pray 5 times a day. I think that's a lot more prayer and a lot more fasting.

I don't know about women and modesty - too young a Christian to know. I would say most Christian women are pretty modest. (and pretty)

I do believe the Koran contains the OT does it not? I guess that's the biggest difference the Muslims and the Jews would believe in "one God" and can't understand where this idea of the trinity came from. To be honest it is a pretty confusing subject.

I do very much agree with true sacrifice. It is why for me you would want the Christian gospel to be true. God himself, on Earth to redeem our sin. God himself offering a way for man.
Sometimes it's frustrating because we are so incredibly sinful and useless but the beauty of grace and God is that he will use that patheticness for his glory.

Praise Him!

 

[MOTHY]

If a Muslim prays 5 times a day or 20, what does this mean? Are they really conversing with God or just 'chanting' ? I don't know, I'm just asking. Does it really mean anything?

 

[GodsoldierClintus]

Yeah, I was just making an observation though, like thats more times I pray to God. And I guess it makes a difference when evangelising to them. If I'm not as committed to my God as they are to their God, that doesn't show them much does it? I guess they do it a ritual more than actual conversation but it's not like Christians don't do it too. Only you know what's in your heart I guess.

 

[ebia]

One thing I believe is for sure: they are more serious about theyr believe then us, not so lukewarm.

Some are, some aren't. Having been to one of the most fundamentalist parts of Pakistan, I can assure you that nominal Muslims are as common in the Islamic world as nominal Christans ever were in 'Christendom'. Even here I know quite a number of Muslims who are pretty nominal about it.

Would a Christian right in the centre of Sydney Airport take his mat out and pray

How would you know? A christian in private prayer is explicitly not supposed to be showy about it. A Muslim in private prayer can't help being highly visisble.

Even if they get a little more 'moderner' in Australia, they still protect their woman and Moslim women are more modest then ours.

At the more traditional end yes, at the more liberal end, not really, but the ones that are visibly muslim are the traditional ones and that skews the picture. Again, I know a number of Muslim women who dress no differently than any other female in Australia.


Incidentally, Pakistan is full of sleazy dvds of scantly clad female dancers - and where are these imported from... Iran!

 

[ebia]

Hmm,

I think what Norbie meant by praying on a mat is that they would do it in public, and not care what anybody else thought. Whereas Christians are a lot less willing to be so open with their faith. Every Muslims fasts 40 days a year from sun up to sun down. And they do pray 5 times a day. I think that's a lot more prayer and a lot more fasting.

Its certainly a lot more regimented than Christian devotions outside religious orders.

I don't know about women and modesty - too young a Christian to know. I would say most Christian women are pretty modest. (and pretty)

I do believe the Koran contains the OT does it not? I guess that's the biggest difference the Muslims and the Jews would believe in "one God" and can't understand where this idea of the trinity came from. To be honest it is a pretty confusing subject.

The Islamic understanding of God is very similar to the Jewish one. (Much closer to the pre-Christian Jewish idea of God than ours is.) The stuff about a moon god is a lot of rot invented by Christian propagandists. Where Islam does tend to move away from the Judeo-Chistian tradition is their emphasis on the transendant, all powerful, nature God has pushed out his immenence in creation. Their God has become a distant God who occasionally intervines rather than a God who is constantly involved with his creation. And hence the idea of that God becoming incarnate is incomprehensable. On the other hand, all too many Christians also seem to view God as a distant being occassionally intervening.

Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God - the God of Abraham. We do, however, have crucial differences in how we understand that God to be and act.

 

[GodsoldierClintus]

That's what I thought Ebia - which raises a lot of questions for me actually. What about someone that is fully devoted to another faith and loves God? Will they be saved?

But I got answered this question, and I guess it deviates from mainstream Christianity. If I get asked this question by someone I would say, well it doesn't matter you now know, and you know have heard, what are you going to do about it?

I believe that God being a just and powerful God will judge justly and those that He decides to be saved will be. I know that I am secure because of my faith in Jesus - but I wouldn't so mind it either if someone who followed another religion was saved. It has been my blessing to follow God's way. Of course I would make all effort to share the Christian gospel with someone, but there's always the *what if* they never heard the gospel, or *what if* they never got enough evidence.

*shrugs*

 

[ebia]

That's what I thought Ebia - which raises a lot of questions for me actually. What about someone that is fully devoted to another faith and loves God? Will they be saved?

But I got answered this question, and I guess it deviates from mainstream Christianity. If I get asked this question by someone I would say, well it doesn't matter you now know, and you know have heard, what are you going to do about it?

I believe that God being a just and powerful God will judge justly and those that He decides to be saved will be. I know that I am secure because of my faith in Jesus - but I wouldn't so mind it either if someone who followed another religion was saved. It has been my blessing to follow God's way. Of course I would make all effort to share the Christian gospel with someone, but there's always the *what if* they never heard the gospel, or *what if* they never got enough evidence.

*shrugs*

That we have to trust to God.

IMO, though, some people of other faiths are a lot closer to God than some Christians who can tick all the 'required' doctrinal boxes, but have little real understanding of God in their heart.

 

[GodsoldierClintus]

Agreed. Wonder how many would call that heresy?

 

[Monarchist]

Others of other faiths are alot closer to God than Christians?
Who is there God?
Muslims worship a moon God, casts as many dispersions as you like on that comment, but realise that Christ was foretold in the old testament not Muhamed. Christ meets all the prophecies according to the Jewish criteria, not Muhamed. Muhamed never died to forgive sin.
Dont want to start an argument but, didnt Christ die to forgive sin?
Isnt Christs blood the atonement? (the lamb of God)
Doesnt God or Jehovah or Yahweh state, Nobody comes to the father except through the son.
I could quote many passages from the bible relating to Christ as the only way to salvation, but I suppose whats the point.

 

[Monarchist]

What are all these Doctrinal boxes we need to tick?
I thought it came down to Love God with all your Heart and Soul and
Love each other.
Care to let me know just in case I have been fooling myself for the past 20 odd years

What are we compared to God. Can we even conceive to understand his righteousnesses. He has set the rules in his book, why would he change them.

 

[ebia]

Others of other faiths are alot closer to God than Christians?
Who is there God?
Muslims worship a moon God, casts as many dispersions as you like on that comment,

It's false. End of story. Repeating it is either irresponsible or lying, depending on whether you know it to be untrue or not.

but realise that Christ was foretold in the old testament not Muhamed. Christ meets all the prophecies according to the Jewish criteria, not Muhamed. Muhamed never died to forgive sin.

Clearly Muslims are mistaken about the nature of Jesus. So are most Jews.

ont want to start an argument but, didnt Christ die to forgive sin?
Isnt Christs blood the atonement? (the lamb of God)
Doesnt God or Jehovah or Yahweh state, Nobody comes to the father except through the son.
I could quote many passages from the bible relating to Christ as the only way to salvation, but I suppose whats the point.

None of which I dispute.

 

[ebia]

What are all these Doctrinal boxes we need to tick?

That depends on who you ask, which is why I left it blank.

I thought it came down to Love God with all your Heart and Soul and
Love each other.
Care to let me know just in case I have been fooling myself for the past 20 odd years

If you've managed either of those, let alone both, you'd be the first person in 2000 years.

What are we compared to God. Can we even conceive to understand his righteousnesses. He has set the rules in his book, why would he change them.

Neither God, nor the bible nor Christianity is about rules.

 

[Monarchist]

Skating around the answers eh?
No Rules? Yeah there are, the two of them.
Doctrinal boxes, sounds religiousy to me. I asked you your opinion. You made the comment?

Muslims into heaven cos God thinks they are nice, or whatever. Sorry, they fail the rule of being off Christs flock.
There is no gray area, either in through the blood of Christ or you dont get in. Maybe we should pray harder for there souls.

Many will say they are of Christ but will be turned away from heaven because they lacked the personal relationship. Thats Biblical.
If God inspires a book and sets out some guidelines, where does it become wishy washy.

And Finally, there is heaps of evidence suggesting that the worship of Allah is based on the ancient worship of the moon god
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/skm30804.htm
Call me irresponsible or a liar, hell call me an Icecream if that helps, but there is a heap of justification to the story.
They worship a moon god.

 

[ebia]

Skating around the answers eh?

Not at all.

No Rules? Yeah there are, the two of them.

Thinking of them as rules is completely the wrong approach.

Doctrinal boxes, sounds religiousy to me.

It was meant to sound like that.

I asked you your opinion. You made the comment?

And the whole point of my comment as about the 'doctrinal boxes' that Christians in general think are the necessary conditions that one must be able to tick to call oneself a Christian.

Muslims into heaven cos God thinks they are nice, or whatever. Sorry, they fail the rule of being off Christs flock.

And what do you think that "rule" is? If you mean adherence to the two great commandments you quoted, then I know quite a few Muslims who do a better job than quite a few Christians. If you don't, then yuor definition is likely to fall into what I called "doctrinal boxes".

There is no gray area, either in through the blood of Christ or you dont get in. Maybe we should pray harder for there souls.

What a dreadful way of expressing it - as though one is glad that some "don't get in". But, to address the substantive point, I never said anyone would "get in" through any means but Jesus.

The problem comes when people translate "Salvation is only through Christ" to "Salvation is only for Christians".

Many will say they are of Christ but will be turned away from heaven because they lacked the personal relationship. Thats Biblical.
If God inspires a book and sets out some guidelines, where does it become wishy washy.

And Finally, there is heaps of evidence suggesting that the worship of Allah is based on the ancient worship of the moon god

All of it inaccurate anti-muslim propoganda.

The Islamic concept of God is so close to the Jewish concept that to suggest they are different is not intellectually sustainable. Islam is far closer to a heretical version of Christianity than it is to paganism.

 

[GodsoldierClintus]

No one is arguing that the one way to God isn't through Christ. The origins of the argument was what if someone who had been raised a Muslim, live as a Muslim, and knew and loved their God what would happen?

Allah - is a Arab word. Just like God is an english word. Allah means God in arab. So yet - it's roots as a word may have come from the moon-god or whatever, it's still just a word for God. You'd find that Christians who are arab pray to Allah. What other word are they suppose to use?
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/allah.html

If you want to get literal with that, then we shouldn't be using Jesus/LORD/Jehovah or even Yahweh, because they are not the names of God. Not even the Jews can tell you what how YHWH was pronounced - does that mean we can't worship God? This is almost getting to the level of a Jehovah's witness thinking. If Allah isn't God - then who were the first century Christians and Jews praying to? Given that YHWH isn't God's name so much as his one of his names describing his character - no one knows who God is. We pray to the one God.

Correction that bit is incorrect. Yahweh is probably the correct translation - whereas Jehovah certainly isn't. And LORD/Jesus are not the "proper" Hebrew names for Yahweh/Yeshua. But we still use them. It's interesting and something we have to wrestle with because names are so important in the OT. My view is that because Christ came to free us, and to impart us His Holy Spirit, we are not held by the OT commandments - although they are technically still "held" because of the two commandments - Love God, Love Others. I think that names were important because it shows God is personal - and that should be how we as Christians view God.

My point still remains, if a Muslim who has a relationship with Allah, and has never heard the Christian gospel - what happens to them? It is my belief that through the grace and love of God, that he will save them somehow because they've never heard the gospel. This is not stated in the Bible - it's just because the character of God, which I find in the Bible. I find it hard to believe he would wipe out someone who didn't get the chance to know him. Call it heresy if you want, God rules justly and judges justly. That doesn't mean as I said before if I were given an opportunity to share the gospel with a Muslim - because I have and I would.

Islam/Koran has gotten it wrong about Jesus - as has the Jews. Doesn't change that God the father (that's YHWH) that the Jews believed in, is not the one in the Koran, is not God the father in the Christian trinity. Again no one is saying Jesus isn't the way - but perhaps you should be more understanding of Islam/Jewish beliefs you truly care about their salvation.

I don't understand why, and it might just be how words are typed across the internet, why you come across so angry on the internet Monarchist.

We are all brothers (and sisters) in the body. There's no need for anger.

 

[Monarchist]

No, I am not angry. I will try to put a few smiley faces to tone it down a bit.
If I do come across as angry, sorry, I will try hard to soften how I say things.