Christians and "civil unions"

[desmalia]

But the problem is the government does both enforce marriage issues, and now chooses to redefine it however it sees fit. I am deeply concerned with the degree of control governments are increasingly taking in the western world. It's steeling away the freedoms of the people, bit by bit. I've always believed that people should be allowed to sit in the hospital room with a dieing loved one, etc. regardless of whether they're married or not, a blood relative, gay or strait. Issues like that should not be defined that way, because then the only way to re-equalize the individual freedoms is to pervert God-given institutions. Unacceptable.

 

[Edouard]

Now the question is turning from civil union to the role of the governement.

If you tell the governement to butt out of marital affairs, you still have a problem due to the few denominations that allow homosexual relations and marriages.
Satan has his hand in every corner.

The consitution has been distorted to let anyone and everyone practice whatever they want to accomodate society.

My ethical stance on money and taxation is very different. I do not think it is ok to tax the american people to support something I consider unethical. Like United Way who then also (to my understanding, If I am wrong please let me know) supports programs like Planned Parenthood. Monetary funds for some thingI of this nature I believe should be banned, since it isn't should come from private donations only.

I do not think it is ok that I support a teenage mom and her child because of irresponsibility. I do not think that they should get a 5-6,000 dollar refund. Is this being greedy? no. We encourage bad behaviour by supporting it.

Civil Unions read Romans 1.

Edouard.
May God shine light on all your good deeds and bless your household.

 

[General Mung Beans]

Now the question is turning from civil union to the role of the governement.

If you tell the governement to butt out of marital affairs, you still have a problem due to the few denominations that allow homosexual relations and marriages.
Satan has his hand in every corner.

The consitution has been distorted to let anyone and everyone practice whatever they want to accomodate society.

My ethical stance on money and taxation is very different. I do not think it is ok to tax the american people to support something I consider unethical. Like United Way who then also (to my understanding, If I am wrong please let me know) supports programs like Planned Parenthood. Monetary funds for some thingI of this nature I believe should be banned, since it isn't should come from private donations only.

I do not think it is ok that I support a teenage mom and her child because of irresponsibility. I do not think that they should get a 5-6,000 dollar refund. Is this being greedy? no. We encourage bad behaviour by supporting it.

Civil Unions read Romans 1.

Edouard.
May God shine light on all your good deeds and bless your household.

That's true but usually if this isn't the case than most likely they will have an abortion.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Everybody in this debate seems to assume government has the right to define and enforce marriage. However, this wasnt always the case, at least here in NYS. Except for a few years of issuing marriage licenses in the 1700s, the State had nothing whatever to do with marriage until about 1890. Marriages were church and local matters.

Since God ordained marriage, my opinion is all levels of government should "butt out", except for a law setting a minimum age.

The Civil Unions idea was so homosexuals get the same government benefits that married couples get - something which could easily be corrected by not basing government benefits on marital status.

That works for me!

 

[Edouard]

General Mung Beans,

We need to make adpotion more accessible to families that really want a child and not base it on their checking account. In England when they made all adoption cases closed, abortion rates plummeted. We should give it a try.

edouard.

 

[Redneck12]

General Mung Beans,

We need to make adpotion more accessible to families that really want a child and not base it on their checking account. In England when they made all adoption cases closed, abortion rates plummeted. We should give it a try.

edouard.

I agree adoption should be based on desire for a child and stability of the home, not on income or size of peoples house.

Closed adoptions have caused problems. There have been several cases publicized in recent years where brother and sister have gotten married because they did not know they were related.

 

[rcorlew]

Here is a novel idea I have had for some time; let evil beget evil, the darkness will increase and bear witness to the light that shines on a hill, a light that cannot be hidden. You cannot legislate morality, although I truly wish you could, but even when we had one rule we still rebelled against that.

Another thought, why do homosexuals feel that they do not have the same rights as I, a lesbian is free to marry any man she desires, a gay man can marry any women he desires; likewise, I cannot marry another man just the same as a gay man is forbidden to. I cannot marry another man, this is the same whether straight or gay, we are both equal. The only binding stipulations in regards to marriage are simple; be of legal age marrying a person of legal age who is consenting and of the opposite gender as yourself. The gay rights people like to add to that definition "love" which is subjective and impossible to objectively prove, it is objectively possible to prove some other person's consent, gender and age. This civil union movement is smart, let us take a sexual qualifier out and base this upon any two consenting adults who wish to be lawfully responsible to another adult; a good example would be two aging widows who have been friends for many decades desiring to enter into such a union.

Those are just some random thoughts of mine, but they seem to make sense, do not add subjective qualifiers to objective laws and do make sexual requirements or qualifiers into laws either. Both marriage and unions can be objective!

 

[Edouard]

Being objective is not always the morally right.
Then what happened to an eye for an eye?

I understand we are talking about marriage/union, but where does it end?
To allow things pass us by and say it is ok as long as....when the behaviour is not of God. How dare we! To be a christian is to follow Christ. Acts 1 and 2.

It is not ok to be a follower of Christ and sit back. Faith without deeds is dead.
Did Christ sit back when they were using false scales and gambling in the temple of the Lord? Did Christ express opinions on how we should act with one another?
He told us that we would do greater things than all of this that has been done.

Edouard
May the Holy Spirit guide our tongues.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Being objective is not always the morally right.
Then what happened to an eye for an eye?

I understand we are talking about marriage/union, but where does it end?
To allow things pass us by and say it is ok as long as....when the behaviour is not of God. How dare we! To be a christian is to follow Christ. Acts 1 and 2.

It is not ok to be a follower of Christ and sit back. Faith without deeds is dead.
Did Christ sit back when they were using false scales and gambling in the temple of the Lord? Did Christ express opinions on how we should act with one another?
He told us that we would do greater things than all of this that has been done.

Edouard
May the Holy Spirit guide our tongues.

How we behave as Christians is one thing. How we legislate that others behave, who are not necessarily Christians, is another. Equal protection under the law is a constitutional fundamental for Americans, and it applies to all, regardless of their religion or sexuality. I don't think that requires that we redefine marriage, but it does require at the very least that we allow people visitation rights in hospitals for their sick or dying loved ones, whether married or not.

 

[Edouard]

How quickly we forget.

Why did the puritans come to America?
why did other religious sects come to America?

If we continue to allow this type of conduct keep occurring, we will be persecuted here like we would be in the middle east.

Edouard.
What's next?
Where does it stop?

 

[jlujan69]

I guess that for the Christian, on this question, like on many others, is where to draw the battlelines. We live in a country that is getting worse morally every year, from personal views on morality to the laws themselves. As citizens with a say in this society, do we always insist that the ungodly act as we're supposed to or do we "allow" them some freedom to do what comes naturally to them anyway? A part of me says to always insist on all of my fellow citizens at least outwardly honoring God with their actions and words. Yet, I also know this to be a very unrealistic expectation since even I can't meet the same bar for myself. So, where and when to fight remains the question. I wonder if (righteous) Lot ever pondered the same question.

 

[jlujan69]

What I wonder is if there ever comes a time when we as believers must recognize an inevitable trend (even in ungodliness) and rather than insist that it's our way entirely, instead, we try to minimize the damage to our society that we know will result.

 

[nChrist]

I personally think that as Christians we should take a stand for God and the teachings of the Holy Bible until we go to our Heavenly Home. I will not call evil good - nor good evil. I still live in a free country, and I will side with God in all of my opinions. Further, I am not ashamed of God's Word or His Gospel and will share it for the remainder of this short life.

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!


Good News!
The Holy Bible is the WORD OF GOD!
God The Father, God The Son, God The Holy Spirit - The Creator Of All Things!
"GOD'S GRACE" and "OUR WORKS"
American Thanksgiving Proclamations ( 1623 to 1863 )
American Thanksgiving Proclamations ( 1961 to 2001 )
JESUS CHRIST - VERY GOD - LORD - SAVIOUR - MESSIAH - KING
Are You Lost?
Messianic Prophecy Fulfilled By Jesus Christ - Part 1 of 4
Messianic Prophecy Fulfilled By Jesus Christ - Part 2 of 4
Messianic Prophecy Fulfilled By Jesus Christ - Part 3 of 4
Messianic Prophecy Fulfilled By Jesus Christ - Part 4 of 4
The Word Of God​

 

[TeachMe]

Reading through the thread I have agreed with some things and not with others.

I live in New Zealand, a country that has already allowed civil unions.

Now, absolutely I agree that homosexuality is wrong. I do not call it good. But it seems to me that one can still call something wrong and yet agree with the free-will of people to commit such wrong.

That said, I would still vote against civil unions, however, imho, they are as not a big of an issue as other areas in NZ (and I would dare to say western) society.

Although homosexuality is wrong and does have awful consequences, it at least does not take innocent lives as abortion does.

Although it is of course a threat to the christian image of marriage, it as not as much of a threat as no-fault divorce is.

The state in NZ is secular, it does not pretend to be christian nor does it pretend to legislate christian morality. Why then should I expect it to heed to the principles of the Bible? A theocracy may result in a technically healthier society, but if the change and attitude is not from the heart sin will still reign. And people will still be lost eternally.


As Christians we need to show in our lives, our love and our truth that there is a DIFFERENT way to the way of the world, rather than trying to force the world into our way.

 

[GraceSeeker]

I personally think that as Christians we should take a stand for God and the teachings of the Holy Bible until we go to our Heavenly Home. I will not call evil good - nor good evil. I still live in a free country, and I will side with God in all of my opinions. Further, I am not ashamed of God's Word or His Gospel and will share it for the remainder of this short life.

I completely agree. And yet it is for exactly this reason that I would like to see the government establish civil unions. Because I am tired of the government regulating marriage. Marriage is something between a man and a woman and God. It doesn't need the government to tell me as a pastor that I have its permission to perform this marriage and not that one. If the government wants to regulate who can and cannot get various sorts of protection from the government in civil affairs or who is to be considered next of kin or any other sort of civil matters, let it by requiring all persons (not just homosexuals, but heterosexual couples as well) to go through the process of having a civil union. Let marriage be something that is defined not by the state but by the church. As far as I am concerned (and thus far my denomination as well) homosexuality is incompatible with Christian scriptures and I cannot ask God's blessings on such a union. (BTW, I'm also tired of asking God's blessing on heterosexual couples that after one or two years of ignoring God's laws in this regard think that I can recite a few magic words over them while they exchange rings and everything is alright.)

Let's let the church (synagogue, mosque) regulate marriage and the government regulate civil unions. We don't have to connect the two at all.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

What I wonder is if there ever comes a time when we as believers must recognize an inevitable trend (even in ungodliness) and rather than insist that it's our way entirely, instead, we try to minimize the damage to our society that we know will result.

If you give immorality an inch, it will take a mile. And homosexual behavior is not natural.

 

[nChrist]

Homosexual acts were felony crimes in every state of the U.S. just a few short years ago. If there was a vote on this issue, I would vote to reinstate those laws. This should tell you how I would feel about any homosexual union of any kind. This quote from LivingWordUnity is true:

If you give immorality an inch, it will take a mile.

One of the biggest mistakes made by homosexual rights advocates was to attempt to force homosexuality is wonderful indoctrination programs on school children as young as 5. This gave everyone a clear signal about what they really want. The answer is NO! In the meantime, nobody is paying much attention to the epidemic of deadly diseases leading to painful, slow deaths in the millions. This is much more than just a question of morals and God saying NO! However, God did say NO! in the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Holy Bible. I realize that many people want to take God out of this issue, but there is much left if we do. I, for one, will not take God out of the issue.

Good News! -- Are You Lost?
The Holy Bible Is The Word Of God! -- The Word Of God
God The Father, God The Son, God The Holy Spirit - The Creator Of All Things!
"God's Grace" And "Our Works"
American Thanksgiving Proclamations: 1623 to 1863 -- 1961 to 2001
Jesus Christ - Very God - Lord - Saviour - Messiah - King
Messianic Prophecy Fulfilled By Jesus Christ: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4​

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Homosexual acts were felony crimes in every state of the U.S. just a few short years ago. If there was a vote on this issue, I would vote to reinstate those laws. This should tell you how I would feel about any homosexual union of any kind. This quote from LivingWordUnity is true:



One of the biggest mistakes made by homosexual rights advocates was to attempt to force homosexuality is wonderful indoctrination programs on school children as young as 5. This gave everyone a clear signal about what they really want. The answer is NO! In the meantime, nobody is paying much attention to the epidemic of deadly diseases leading to painful, slow deaths in the millions. This is much more than just a question of morals and God saying NO! However, God did say NO! in the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Holy Bible. I realize that many people want to take God out of this issue, but there is much left if we do. I, for one, will not take God out of the issue.

Good News! -- Are You Lost?
The Holy Bible Is The Word Of God! -- The Word Of God
God The Father, God The Son, God The Holy Spirit - The Creator Of All Things!
"God's Grace" And "Our Works"
American Thanksgiving Proclamations: 1623 to 1863 -- 1961 to 2001
Jesus Christ - Very God - Lord - Saviour - Messiah - King
Messianic Prophecy Fulfilled By Jesus Christ: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4​

I posted a thread in OBOB warning about the deadly diseases showing the alarming Centers for Disease Control statistics on AIDS and men who have sex with men. The liberals over there consistently ignored the proportionately high numbers of "gay" men who get AIDS or tried to say that getting AIDS is not so bad. But not one of them would voluntarily infect themselves with AIDS. I guess liberals think AIDS is OK as long as it's others who get it.

 

[GraceSeeker]

I posted a thread in OBOB warning about the deadly diseases showing the alarming Centers for Disease Control statistics on AIDS and men who have sex with men. The liberals over there consistently ignored the proportionately high numbers of "gay" men who get AIDS or tried to say that getting AIDS is not so bad. But not one of them would voluntarily infect themselves with AIDS. I guess liberals think AIDS is OK as long as it's others who get it.

Homosexual sex is dangerous to those engaged in it. No doubt. Is THAT your rationale for saying that Civil Unions are immoral? I also believe that homosexual sex is immoral. But one does not follow from the other. Those are independent statements and to conflate them lessens the argument you are trying to make.

 

[Dark Rabbit]

One of the biggest mistakes made by homosexual rights advocates was to attempt to force homosexuality is wonderful indoctrination programs on school children as young as 5. This gave everyone a clear signal about what they really want. The answer is NO! In the meantime, nobody is paying much attention to the epidemic of deadly diseases leading to painful, slow deaths in the millions. This is much more than just a question of morals and God saying NO! However, God did say NO! in the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Holy Bible. I realize that many people want to take God out of this issue, but there is much left if we do. I, for one, will not take God out of the issue.

I agree with you. The thing that often gets 'swept under the rug' is the high disease rates. Most secular doctors will tell you that the homosexual lifestyle is considered 'high risk.' There are certain diseases that are highly associated with male homosexuality, and the nature of it exposes you to an incredable amount of disease organisms. And there is the drug use, depression and high rates of domestic violance that often occurs.

I don't think this gets told in the classrooms.