Christians and alcohol; hurting the spread of the gospel...

[Servant68]

I'm sure there are a dozen better forums to post this in, but I don't want a deep theological debate and someone with a theology degree judging me and pointing out how well I don't know the Bible...

I view this forum more as a singles Bible study so I thought I'd share an observation.

I was visiting with my parents at their home. My brother came over with his new fiance and my sister was up visiting, so the whole family was together, which is rare.

My sister and I are the only ones who attend church. My parents say grace occasionally, but haven't gone to church in 30 years. My brother sporadically attended, but he and his fiance refuse to go to church anymore.

It's a touchy subject, faith is. So my sister and I try to gingerly bring it up around the family to encourage discussion.

Last night, my sister and I were talking about the churches we now attend and my dad mentioned that the last church my parent's attended had it written in their statement that ANY alcohol consumption was a sin since Jesus only drank unfermented grape juice. It actually said that.

Then my brother started sharing about one of his friends Christian parents who are absolutely militant about alcohol and being so ridiculous that the mother refused to even touch a bottle of wine while helping clean up after a wedding reception.

My brother, his fiance, and my dad all used the examples of Christians being so ridiculously uptight and embattled over the subject of alcohol as proof that churches are filled with ridiculous people that can't even read the Bible and see that Jesus and his disciples drank fermented wine. They all drink, as do my sister and I.

I have rarely seen my dad ever drink to the point of drunkenness, maybe twice in the 30 years I've observed him drinking. He's got a better track record than I do. Never seen mom intoxicated. My brother is a Detective, so he tries to practice moderation as well.

My point is that none of them are in violation of Biblical standards in relation to alcohol, yet they perceive they are being judged due to a large, vocal number of teetotaling Christians who not only harshly judge others who drink, but actually include it in their church doctrinal statement.

Just my random Bible study subject of the day...

BTW, my Bible study had a celebratory meeting last week and we had both sparkling cider and actual champagne. It was about half and half for those who had champagne and those who didn't.

 

[brinny]

The title of this thread is what caught my eye.

Do you, Servant68, think/believe that alcohol consumption enhances or detracts from sharing the gospel?

Explain your yes or no.

In the meantime let's pretend i am an unsaved person who hates Christians because i'm convinced they're all hypocrites. In other words, i'm hostile to you, as you are going to share the gospel with me, and i've been drinking, but just slightly high.

 

[Servant68]

Do you, Servant68, think/believe that alcohol consumption enhances or detracts from sharing the gospel?

I think it does neither and it does both.

Does the wearing of skinny jeans enhance or detract from sharing the gospel?

 

[brinny]

I think it does neither and it does both.

Does the wearing of skinny jeans enhance or detract from sharing the gospel?

The question is about alcohol and sharing the gospel.

Isn't it?

I posted a realistic scenario.

What i neglected to add, is that you have been drinking alcohol slightly as well.

Please proceed.

Share the gospel.

 

[drjean]

Jesus made wine, the bridegroom was "accused" of keeping the best for last (when most let them get soused on good wine and then served the bad stuff they couldn't taste..or didn't care.)

It should not be a cause for loss of fellowship. "A little wine does the stomach much good." Sometimes IMO it would be better to use a good wine to heal a stomach upset than some of the horrible medicines today.... (No medicine save antibiotic cures anything...it only treats a symptom anyway but causes other symptoms so doctors and pharmacies make more money on those drugs too...) Ok. Rant over.

 

[drjean]

As for comparisons... well that will always make you upset or sad.. wearing a swim suit at the beach restaurant in Miami is no more upsetting than wearing a long skirt to a revival in OK.... but vice versa might.

 

[brinny]

Jesus made wine, the bridegroom was "accused" of keeping the best for last (when most let them get soused on good wine and then served the bad stuff they couldn't taste..or didn't care.)

It should not be a cause for loss of fellowship. "A little wine does the stomach much good." Sometimes IMO it would be better to use a good wine to heal a stomach upset than some of the horrible medicines today.... (No medicine save antibiotic cures anything...it only treats a symptom anyway but causes other symptoms so doctors and pharmacies make more money on those drugs too...) Ok. Rant over.

Ok. Rant over.

Nice rant Dr Jean.

Would you care to share whether alcohol consumption enhances or detracts from sharing the gospel?

And please refer to my scenario i posted above in post #2.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Servant68]

Nice rant Dr Jean.

Would you care to share whether alcohol consumption enhances or detracts from sharing the gospel?

And please refer to my scenario i posted above in post #2.

Thank you kindly.

Why don't you just plainly state your position?

 

[brinny]

Why don't you just plainly state your position?

I'm inviting you to elaborate on the title of this thread regarding alcohol consumption and sharing the gospel.

Please respond to post #2.

Thank you kindly.

 

[brinny]

Christians and alcohol; hurting the spread of the gospel...

Does it?

 

[Servant68]

I suggest you re-read the first sentence of my post. And the body of the message.

It is not about the individual use or abstinence from alcohol that hurts the spread of the gospel, it is the judging and ignorance of scripture by those who loudly proclaim they abstain from alcohol.

Don't want to drink? Fine. I know plenty of good Christians who don't. They also manage to not make a big deal out of it or embarrass themselves by making judgemental statements about those of us who do.

 

[brinny]

I suggest you re-read the first sentence of my post. And the body of the message.

It is not about the individual use or abstinence from alcohol that hurts the spread of the gospel, it is the judging and ignorance of scripture by those who loudly proclaim they abstain from alcohol.

Don't want to drink? Fine. I know plenty of good Christians who don't. They also manage to not make a big deal out of it or embarrass themselves by making judgemental statements about those of us who do.

Regarding the spread of the gospel, that's the exact scenario i posted in #2.

The scenario is that i desperately need the gospel. You came to present the gospel.

I am hostile and i have been drinking alcohol a little.

So have you.

Please.

Present the gospel.

(the lost, who desperately need the gospel, come in all kinds of conditions and with all kinds of issues. God's laborers are desperately needed to share the good news of the gospel and shine God's Light in the darkness.)

 

[Serving Zion]

I'm sure there are a dozen better forums to post this in, but I don't want a deep theological debate and someone with a theology degree judging me and pointing out how well I don't know the Bible...

I view this forum more as a singles Bible study so I thought I'd share an observation.

I was visiting with my parents at their home. My brother came over with his new fiance and my sister was up visiting, so the whole family was together, which is rare.

My sister and I are the only ones who attend church. My parents say grace occasionally, but haven't gone to church in 30 years. My brother sporadically attended, but he and his fiance refuse to go to church anymore.

It's a touchy subject, faith is. So my sister and I try to gingerly bring it up around the family to encourage discussion.

Last night, my sister and I were talking about the churches we now attend and my dad mentioned that the last church my parent's attended had it written in their statement that ANY alcohol consumption was a sin since Jesus only drank unfermented grape juice. It actually said that.

Then my brother started sharing about one of his friends Christian parents who are absolutely militant about alcohol and being so ridiculous that the mother refused to even touch a bottle of wine while helping clean up after a wedding reception.

My brother, his fiance, and my dad all used the examples of Christians being so ridiculously uptight and embattled over the subject of alcohol as proof that churches are filled with ridiculous people that can't even read the Bible and see that Jesus and his disciples drank fermented wine. They all drink, as do my sister and I.

I have rarely seen my dad ever drink to the point of drunkenness, maybe twice in the 30 years I've observed him drinking. He's got a better track record than I do. Never seen mom intoxicated. My brother is a Detective, so he tries to practice moderation as well.

My point is that none of them are in violation of Biblical standards in relation to alcohol, yet they perceive they are being judged due to a large, vocal number of teetotaling Christians who not only harshly judge others who drink, but actually include it in their church doctrinal statement.

Just my random Bible study subject of the day...

BTW, my Bible study had a celebratory meeting last week and we had both sparkling cider and actual champagne. It was about half and half for those who had champagne and those who didn't.

Pay no mind to those antichrists (2 Peter 2:1-2, 1 John 4:1 - false teachers, the ones who say "Thus says The Lord", but they really steal their words from one another: Jeremiah 23:30-40), they are perishing (Proverbs 31:6, Isaiah 29:9-14). Yes, a little leaven puffs up a whole batch of dough.. but your parents and siblings have not endured to survival (Luke 21:19). I caution, whether that tendency perhaps is a familial weakness: Romans 12:21 - "do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good".

 

[blackribbon]

The Bible makes it clear that there isn't anything we can eat or not eat that purifies us or makes us holy. We are simply told not to do anything to excess...drunkenness (too much alcohol), gluttony, greed, etc. The Bible does not say it is evil to drink alcohol. Jesus made alcohol as the first act of his ministry. The examples of the churches that turn an inanimate objects into "evil" are examples of people making an item an idol or an act of worship...in this case, the purity you get by not touching alcohol some how makes you "better" or more godly. Other churches make money an idol (both the having of it or being pure by being poor). I just had this discussion with my son who just returned from a Men's retreat at church. Evil comes from our thought process and what we do with the things God has given us. Alcohol isn't evil by itself, but "drinking to get drunk" is. It becomes the activity of the night with the focus to use something in excess. As Christians, we are called to not do something we know is offensive in front of people that may cause them to stubble....so in the place of alcohol would mean not drinking in front of someone who has difficulty with sobriety OR that person that somehow believes touching alcohol is anti-God because they won't be able to get past thinking about your "evilness".

Alcohol is an inanimate object...that God taught men to make...that Jesus made for his first miracle...that Jesus used to represent his own life blood in what was to become a religious activity. It is not evil on its own. Only a person using it incorrectly, can make it evil.

 

[dayhiker]

The more I hear of people not seeking God by meeting with other believers the more I think did they really get that they were / are in a relationship with Jesus?! Were they just going to church as a social club?
From the other side, I'm convinced the more I watch people that we all are hypocrites!

So why do people separate from the gathering of other believers? I think its self righteous judgment. They don't like the fact that God is forgiving people. They want God to judge people, just a Jonah wanted God to forgive the Ninevites.
I was at a workshop this weekend. Theme was being the Source of Love or how do we come back to love. One of the exercises was called cross the line. We were lasted if we had lied to cross the line. If we stole something, to cross the line. If we did drugs or abused alcohol, cross the line. Out of a painfully long list of things that weren't loving only one question didn't have anyone who didn't cross the line. So the question to each of us was are we going to judge them and by extension judge ourself. Or were we going to have compassion on everyone one of us because we are human.
Jesus is the only one who wouldn't have crossed the line and yet he had so much compassion for us and wanted to gather us under his wing to protect us. But we would rather stay out of love with God and his people. Yet the love of God still calls will we love as God loves.

 

[Servant68]

So why do people separate from the gathering of other believers? I think its self righteous judgment. They don't like the fact that God is forgiving people. They want God to judge people, just a Jonah wanted God to forgive the Ninevites.

I'm on a few forums; mostly firearms forums. The most hurtful deeply personal insult I've received on a forum has been on this one. By a "Christian" judging me for having firearms.

I took a break from here for awhile since I was just tired of the constant arguing and judging. I enjoy discussing my faith in my Bible study and meeting with other Christians weekly for prayer and encouragement. I keep hoping I could find the same kind of fellowship online, but it has been proven elusive.

 

[Adstar]

I'm sure there are a dozen better forums to post this in, but I don't want a deep theological debate and someone with a theology degree judging me and pointing out how well I don't know the Bible...

I view this forum more as a singles Bible study so I thought I'd share an observation.

I was visiting with my parents at their home. My brother came over with his new fiance and my sister was up visiting, so the whole family was together, which is rare.

My sister and I are the only ones who attend church. My parents say grace occasionally, but haven't gone to church in 30 years. My brother sporadically attended, but he and his fiance refuse to go to church anymore.

It's a touchy subject, faith is. So my sister and I try to gingerly bring it up around the family to encourage discussion.

Last night, my sister and I were talking about the churches we now attend and my dad mentioned that the last church my parent's attended had it written in their statement that ANY alcohol consumption was a sin since Jesus only drank unfermented grape juice. It actually said that.

Then my brother started sharing about one of his friends Christian parents who are absolutely militant about alcohol and being so ridiculous that the mother refused to even touch a bottle of wine while helping clean up after a wedding reception.

My brother, his fiance, and my dad all used the examples of Christians being so ridiculously uptight and embattled over the subject of alcohol as proof that churches are filled with ridiculous people that can't even read the Bible and see that Jesus and his disciples drank fermented wine. They all drink, as do my sister and I.

I have rarely seen my dad ever drink to the point of drunkenness, maybe twice in the 30 years I've observed him drinking. He's got a better track record than I do. Never seen mom intoxicated. My brother is a Detective, so he tries to practice moderation as well.

My point is that none of them are in violation of Biblical standards in relation to alcohol, yet they perceive they are being judged due to a large, vocal number of teetotaling Christians who not only harshly judge others who drink, but actually include it in their church doctrinal statement.

Just my random Bible study subject of the day...

BTW, my Bible study had a celebratory meeting last week and we had both sparkling cider and actual champagne. It was about half and half for those who had champagne and those who didn't.

Yes the doctrine of banning all alcohol consumption is a doctrine of men.. It has no basis in the Bible.. Human made doctrines end up causing strife and unnecessary division... It's a shame but someone in the past.. Probably an ex-alcoholic or the son of an alcoholic got the idea to do as the muslims do and make up a doctrine to ban Alcohol and a group of others formed around them and then it became Gospel to a whole community... Sad..

 

[Servant68]

As Christians, we are called to not do something we know is offensive in front of people that may cause them to stumble

I know when I asked my ex mother and father-in-law why they didn't drank and they said they didn't want to cause others to stumble and I was always confused about that. They never explained it.

 

[dayhiker]

I'm on a few forums; mostly firearms forums. The most hurtful deeply personal insult I've received on a forum has been on this one. By a "Christian" judging me for having firearms.

I took a break from here for awhile since I was just tired of the constant arguing and judging. I enjoy discussing my faith in my Bible study and meeting with other Christians weekly for prayer and encouragement. I keep hoping I could find the same kind of fellowship online, but it has been proven elusive.

I find us Christians are blind to how much we judge. I've had to work hard to not judge other people. I've meet Christians who are amazing how much much they love. But often I find Christians polite unless they feel they have to speak the truth in love, then its judgement big time. They never stop to see how many people they have pushed away from God in "loving them by telling them the truth."

I know what you mean, Servant.

 

[Celticroots]

I find us Christians are blind to how much we judge. I've had to work hard to not judge other people. I've meet Christians who are amazing how much much they love. But often I find Christians polite unless they feel they have to speak the truth in love, then its judgement big time. They never stop to see how many people they have pushed away from God in "loving them by telling them the truth."

I know what you mean, Servant.

A lot us know what he means. Christians often get sick of other "Christians" "telling them the truth in love." Which is just a passive aggressive form of judging IMO. And getting judged often for things as trivial as owning a firearm, or having a beer or glass of wine with dinner. Or simply having views they disagree with that aren't essential to salvation.