Christianizing my Halloween

2Timothy2:15

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Forgetting the fact that I am not Catholic and I don't believe in Purgatory, this anti-Catholic make some ironic statements such as considered the book of Maccabees faked because the Jews say it is when the Jews pray for the dead, using the Old Testament (that didn't have so many explanations about the Resurrection) and talking about the destiny of the people before Christ who couldn't go to Paradise, while being blasphemous in assuming the deceased have no emotion when the New Testament mention dead people feeling what's going on, saying that the first reference of praying to the dead is with Tertullian when the early Christians were Jews, there are tombs with request to pray for the deceased and that other such as Augustine also prayed for the dead.

You did not read the whole thing, that Catholic history was just a part. I see you read halfway through and stopped. It is just information for you to consider. I think reading halfway through may be a pattern. I also remember being 19 and thinking I knew it all too :)

Anyhow, the whole point people are warning you about Halloween and praying to the dead is for your good. It is not wise to open doors to the enemy. This is something you should take seriously and not just come across like you have all the answers. God Bless.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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Your site is a poor source to use. The Early church fathers and the early christians also prayed for the dead. Research about the tomb of Abercius of hieropolis, there is an inscription on his tomb that says "Let every friend who observes this pray for me". The Roman Catacombs also contain prayers to the christians who died during that time. Then you have Church Tertullian, Agustine, and even some of the oldest Liturgies held by the Eastern Orthodox... the Jews even did it and believed it.

Additionally, Paul did 2 Timothy 1:16-18, praying for Onesiporus in 2 Timothy 4:1. Yes, i predict you are going to go CARM.org or whatever protestant site to try to dispute this but this is wrong, because we all know Paul is quoting a verse in 2 Maccabees - which is about praying for the dead. It doesn't matter if you don't believe 2 Maccabees or not because at the end, Paul still used it as a prayer to someone.

Sure, people have prayed to the dead for a long time. That does not make it right though :)
 
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Cis.jd

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Sure, people have prayed to the dead for a long time. That does not make it right though :)

Why would Paul and all these early christians do it, if it was wrong? It looks like you have no scripture or historical source and don't want to admit it.
 
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Albion

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There is nothing wrong with praying God to be merciful to the faithful departed.

That is not the same as thinking that their status or destiny in the afterlife can be changed by such prayers, that they can hear us themselves, or that our prayers should be directed TO those who have passed on. It's these issues that usually cause the most wrangling between Christians of different denominations.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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They were also invited

Well yes... Because when you show up in your neighbors yard and throw a party to show off the stuff they helped you get, it’s kind of poor form to not invite them... Seeing as they live there and all.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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Read my post that you quoted on #83.
There is no evidence that Onesiporus was in fact dead as Paul was praying for his family and the scriptures are not clear. That single obscure scripture which can not be proven that he was in fact dead is nothing to hang your hat on. There are far more scriptures forbidding it.
 
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Not David

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Just to add, while Maccabees isn't in the Hebrew canon that doesn't mean the Jews disregard or ignore it. It is the book that contains the story of Hanukkah, which we know the Jews celebrate. In addition to be quoted in 2 Tim.
My Church considers the Maccabees books Scripture.
 
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O God of spirits and of all flesh, Who hast trampled down death and overthrown the Devil, and given life to Thy world, do Thou, the same Lord, give rest to the souls of Thy departed servants in a place of brightness, a place of refreshment, a place of repose, where all sickness, sighing, and sorrow have fled away. Pardon every transgression which they have committed, whether by word or deed or thought. For Thou art a good God and lovest mankind; because there is no man who lives yet does not sin, for Thou only art without sin, Thy righteousness is to all eternity, and Thy word is truth.

For Thou are the Resurrection, the Life, and the Repose of Thy servants who have fallen asleep, O Christ our God, and unto Thee we ascribe glory, together with Thy Father, who is from everlasting, and Thine all-holy, good, and life-creating Spirit, now and ever unto ages of ages. Amen.
 
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Cis.jd

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There is no evidence that Onesiporus was in fact dead as Paul was praying for his family and the scriptures are not clear. That single obscure scripture which can not be proven that he was in fact dead is nothing to hang your hat on. There are far more scriptures forbidding it.
yes there was.

Oneisiporus is being spoken about in the past tense while his family was being spoken to in the present tense (2 Tim 4:1), additionally Paul prayed this for Onesiporus: "May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day."

You can make the claims about it being obscure, and you can even go to protestant sites who will use their own interpretations and just say "oh he left rome". However there was a ton of historical reference I have shown you from the 1st christians and early church fathers, who all predate Rome's adoption of Christianity. This is a practice, not only with in the roots of Judaism, but also passed by the Apostles because if it wasn't taught by God, then none of the 1st Christians would do it.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Well yes... Because when you show up in your neighbors yard and throw a party to show off the stuff they helped you get, it’s kind of poor form to not invite them... Seeing as they live there and all.
Does not seem that they minded being invited to a three day feast and there is no record that the indians ever invited the English over to their place for such a feast that they did not have to prepare. Thanksgiving or the giving of thanks to God is very Christian and those Christians blessed the local people. You might not like it but it is nevertheless true.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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yes there was.

Oneisiporus is being spoken about in the past tense while his family was being spoken to in the present tense (2 Tim 4:1), additionally Paul prayed this for Onesiporus: "May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day."

You can make the claims about it being obscure, and you can even go to protestant sites who will use their own interpretations and just say "oh he left rome". However there was a ton of historical reference I have shown you from the 1st christians and early church fathers, who all predate Rome's adoption of Christianity. This is a practice, not only with in the roots of Judaism, but also passed by the Apostles because if it wasn't taught by God, then none of the 1st Christians would do it.

In response, this must be noted.

  1. There is no concrete evidence at all that Onesiphorus was dead. The arguments for his demise are all based upon inferences, none of which are “necessary.”
  2. That his actions are spoken of in the past tense is perfectly understandable since he was no longer in Rome (17a).
  3. The fact that Paul did not mention him in 4:19, in sending greetings to those in Ephesus, is not troubling — if Onesiphorus himself was somewhere other than in Ephesus.
  4. The fact that Paul prayed for this brother is proof within itself that he was not dead, since there is not a shred of evidence in the New Testament that prayers for the dead are acceptable. Lenski is emphatic that the “analogy of Scripture” is against the idea of any Christian praying for the dead (p. 776). If the brother was dead, why did the apostle offer no word of comfort to the family? (Note: While some deny that this was a “prayer” (Mounce, p. 494), most scholars affirm that it is, and even Mounce later calls it a “wish prayer” (p. 496).
  5. The writers of the New Testament did not consider the apocryphal books as inspired and authoritative. Though they had access to them (since they were “bound up” with the Greek Old Testament), they never quoted from them; this is powerful evidence that they did not view them as in the same class with the Old Testament documents.
  6. If Onesiphorus, as a godly man, was dead, there would be no need to petition God for mercy on his behalf; he would have been a recipient of that mercy already.
  7. If the brother died as an apostate (of which there is no evidence), Paul’s prayer for “mercy” would be worthless inasmuch as mercy will be bestowed on the basis of one’s personal relationship with the Lord, not on that of another’s actions (Ezekiel 18:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10). Moreover, the wicked dead cannot leave their place of torment (Luke 16:26), and their punishment is “eternal” in duration (Matthew 25:46).
Accordingly, these texts in Paul’s second epistle to Timothy do not come remotely close to providing the coveted evidence for the validity of prayers for the dead.

Praying for the dead is not a biblical concept. Our prayers have no bearing on someone once he or she has died. The reality is that, at the point of death, one’s eternal destiny is confirmed. Either he is saved through faith in Christ and is in heaven where he is experiencing rest and joy in God’s presence, or he is in torment in hell. The story of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar provides us with a vivid illustration of this truth. Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied (Luke 16:19-31).

Often, people who have lost a loved one are encouraged to pray for those who have passed away and for their families. Of course, we should pray for those grieving, but for the dead, no. No one should ever believe that someone may be able to pray for him, thereby effecting some kind of favorable outcome, after he has died. The Bible teaches that the eternal state of mankind is determined by our actions during our lives on earth. “The soul who sins is the one who will die. . . . The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him” (Ezekiel 18:20).

The writer to the Hebrews tells us, “Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). Here we understand that no change in one’s spiritual condition can be made following his death—either by himself or through the efforts of others. If it is useless to pray for the living, who are committing “a sin that leads to death” (1 John 5:16), i.e., continual sin without seeking God’s forgiveness, how could prayer for those who are already dead benefit them, since there is no post-mortem plan of salvation?

The point is that each of us has but one life, and we are responsible for how we live that life. Others may influence our choices, but ultimately we must give an account for the choices we make. Once life is over, there are no more choices to be made; we have no choice but to face judgment. The prayers of others may express their desires, but they won’t change the outcome. The time to pray for a person is while he or she lives and there is still the possibility of his or her heart, attitudes, and behavior being changed (Romans 2:3-9).

It is natural to have a desire to pray in times of pain, suffering, and loss of loved ones and friends, but we know the boundaries of valid prayer as revealed in the Bible. The Bible is the only official prayer manual, and it teaches that prayers for the dead are futile. Yet we find the practice of praying for the dead observed in certain areas of “Christendom.” Roman Catholic theology, for example, allows for prayers both to the dead and on behalf of them. But even Catholic authorities admit that there is no explicit authorization for prayers on behalf of the dead in the sixty-six books of canonical Scripture. Instead, they appeal to the Apocrypha (2 Maccabees 12:45), church tradition, the decree of the Council of Trent, etc., to defend the practice.

The Bible teaches that those who have yielded to the Savior’s will (Hebrews 5:8-9) enter directly and immediately into the presence of the Lord after death (Luke 23:43; Philippians 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:6, 8). What need, then, do they have for the prayers of people on the earth? While we sympathize with those who have lost dear ones, we must bear in mind that “now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2). While the context refers to the gospel age as a whole, the verse is fitting for any individual who is unprepared to face the inevitable—death and the judgment that follows (Romans 5:12; 1 Corinthians 15:26; Hebrews 9:27). Death is final, and after that, no amount of praying will avail a person of the salvation he has rejected in life.
 
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Cis.jd

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On that day is future tense. He is also praying for his family and that is the primary focus.

Praying for the dead is not a biblical concept. Our prayers have no bearing on someone once he or she has died. The reality is that, at the point of death, one’s eternal destiny is confirmed. Either he is saved through faith in Christ and is in heaven where he is experiencing rest and joy in God’s presence, or he is in torment in hell. The story of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar provides us with a vivid illustration of this truth. Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied (Luke 16:19-31).

Often, people who have lost a loved one are encouraged to pray for those who have passed away and for their families. Of course, we should pray for those grieving, but for the dead, no. No one should ever believe that someone may be able to pray for him, thereby effecting some kind of favorable outcome, after he has died. The Bible teaches that the eternal state of mankind is determined by our actions during our lives on earth. “The soul who sins is the one who will die. . . . The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him” (Ezekiel 18:20).

The writer to the Hebrews tells us, “Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). Here we understand that no change in one’s spiritual condition can be made following his death—either by himself or through the efforts of others. If it is useless to pray for the living, who are committing “a sin that leads to death” (1 John 5:16), i.e., continual sin without seeking God’s forgiveness, how could prayer for those who are already dead benefit them, since there is no post-mortem plan of salvation?

The point is that each of us has but one life, and we are responsible for how we live that life. Others may influence our choices, but ultimately we must give an account for the choices we make. Once life is over, there are no more choices to be made; we have no choice but to face judgment. The prayers of others may express their desires, but they won’t change the outcome. The time to pray for a person is while he or she lives and there is still the possibility of his or her heart, attitudes, and behavior being changed (Romans 2:3-9).

It is natural to have a desire to pray in times of pain, suffering, and loss of loved ones and friends, but we know the boundaries of valid prayer as revealed in the Bible. The Bible is the only official prayer manual, and it teaches that prayers for the dead are futile. Yet we find the practice of praying for the dead observed in certain areas of “Christendom.” Roman Catholic theology, for example, allows for prayers both to the dead and on behalf of them. But even Catholic authorities admit that there is no explicit authorization for prayers on behalf of the dead in the sixty-six books of canonical Scripture. Instead, they appeal to the Apocrypha (2 Maccabees 12:45), church tradition, the decree of the Council of Trent, etc., to defend the practice.

The Bible teaches that those who have yielded to the Savior’s will (Hebrews 5:8-9) enter directly and immediately into the presence of the Lord after death (Luke 23:43; Philippians 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:6, 8). What need, then, do they have for the prayers of people on the earth? While we sympathize with those who have lost dear ones, we must bear in mind that “now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2). While the context refers to the gospel age as a whole, the verse is fitting for any individual who is unprepared to face the inevitable—death and the judgment that follows (Romans 5:12; 1 Corinthians 15:26; Hebrews 9:27). Death is final, and after that, no amount of praying will avail a person of the salvation he has rejected in life.

Please read my post earlier, I've already detailed the response I was expecting from you: "he was just not there" and then pasting in verses that have "dead" or "death" in them.

First of all, if Onesiphorus was just AWOL, Paul would not pray to God to give him mercy on THAT DAY. He would also not leave him out of on 2 Tim 4:19.

Second, what proves your interpretation of this story (as well as the verses you are using to disprove praying for the dead) is wrong, is because I have posted the historical sources of this being done by the early christians who existed before Catholicism. In addition to the Maccabees, I know you don't accept the book to be inspired, regardless it is still considered historical to the Jews. Hanukkah is about it. So as a historical book, it shows that Jews also believed this.

You need to rely on historical-early church as a cross checking of bible interpretations --especially when you start claiming something as biblically unsupportive, because why would the early christians and early church fathers (who were all taught by the Apostles of Jesus) do all that, knowing it is wrong?
 
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Not David

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In response, this must be noted.

  1. There is no concrete evidence at all that Onesiphorus was dead. The arguments for his demise are all based upon inferences, none of which are “necessary.”
  2. That his actions are spoken of in the past tense is perfectly understandable since he was no longer in Rome (17a).
  3. The fact that Paul did not mention him in 4:19, in sending greetings to those in Ephesus, is not troubling — if Onesiphorus himself was somewhere other than in Ephesus.
  4. The fact that Paul prayed for this brother is proof within itself that he was not dead, since there is not a shred of evidence in the New Testament that prayers for the dead are acceptable. Lenski is emphatic that the “analogy of Scripture” is against the idea of any Christian praying for the dead (p. 776). If the brother was dead, why did the apostle offer no word of comfort to the family? (Note: While some deny that this was a “prayer” (Mounce, p. 494), most scholars affirm that it is, and even Mounce later calls it a “wish prayer” (p. 496).
  5. The writers of the New Testament did not consider the apocryphal books as inspired and authoritative. Though they had access to them (since they were “bound up” with the Greek Old Testament), they never quoted from them; this is powerful evidence that they did not view them as in the same class with the Old Testament documents.
  6. If Onesiphorus, as a godly man, was dead, there would be no need to petition God for mercy on his behalf; he would have been a recipient of that mercy already.
  7. If the brother died as an apostate (of which there is no evidence), Paul’s prayer for “mercy” would be worthless inasmuch as mercy will be bestowed on the basis of one’s personal relationship with the Lord, not on that of another’s actions (Ezekiel 18:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10). Moreover, the wicked dead cannot leave their place of torment (Luke 16:26), and their punishment is “eternal” in duration (Matthew 25:46).
Accordingly, these texts in Paul’s second epistle to Timothy do not come remotely close to providing the coveted evidence for the validity of prayers for the dead.

Praying for the dead is not a biblical concept. Our prayers have no bearing on someone once he or she has died. The reality is that, at the point of death, one’s eternal destiny is confirmed. Either he is saved through faith in Christ and is in heaven where he is experiencing rest and joy in God’s presence, or he is in torment in hell. The story of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar provides us with a vivid illustration of this truth. Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied (Luke 16:19-31).

Often, people who have lost a loved one are encouraged to pray for those who have passed away and for their families. Of course, we should pray for those grieving, but for the dead, no. No one should ever believe that someone may be able to pray for him, thereby effecting some kind of favorable outcome, after he has died. The Bible teaches that the eternal state of mankind is determined by our actions during our lives on earth. “The soul who sins is the one who will die. . . . The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him” (Ezekiel 18:20).

The writer to the Hebrews tells us, “Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). Here we understand that no change in one’s spiritual condition can be made following his death—either by himself or through the efforts of others. If it is useless to pray for the living, who are committing “a sin that leads to death” (1 John 5:16), i.e., continual sin without seeking God’s forgiveness, how could prayer for those who are already dead benefit them, since there is no post-mortem plan of salvation?

The point is that each of us has but one life, and we are responsible for how we live that life. Others may influence our choices, but ultimately we must give an account for the choices we make. Once life is over, there are no more choices to be made; we have no choice but to face judgment. The prayers of others may express their desires, but they won’t change the outcome. The time to pray for a person is while he or she lives and there is still the possibility of his or her heart, attitudes, and behavior being changed (Romans 2:3-9).

It is natural to have a desire to pray in times of pain, suffering, and loss of loved ones and friends, but we know the boundaries of valid prayer as revealed in the Bible. The Bible is the only official prayer manual, and it teaches that prayers for the dead are futile. Yet we find the practice of praying for the dead observed in certain areas of “Christendom.” Roman Catholic theology, for example, allows for prayers both to the dead and on behalf of them. But even Catholic authorities admit that there is no explicit authorization for prayers on behalf of the dead in the sixty-six books of canonical Scripture. Instead, they appeal to the Apocrypha (2 Maccabees 12:45), church tradition, the decree of the Council of Trent, etc., to defend the practice.

The Bible teaches that those who have yielded to the Savior’s will (Hebrews 5:8-9) enter directly and immediately into the presence of the Lord after death (Luke 23:43; Philippians 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:6, 8). What need, then, do they have for the prayers of people on the earth? While we sympathize with those who have lost dear ones, we must bear in mind that “now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2). While the context refers to the gospel age as a whole, the verse is fitting for any individual who is unprepared to face the inevitable—death and the judgment that follows (Romans 5:12; 1 Corinthians 15:26; Hebrews 9:27). Death is final, and after that, no amount of praying will avail a person of the salvation he has rejected in life.
General Prayers for the Dead
Christ our eternal King and God, You have destroyed death and the devil by Your Cross and have restored man to life by Your Resurrection; give rest, Lord, to the soul of Your servant (name) who has fallen asleep, in Your Kingdom, where there is no pain, sorrow or suffering. In Your goodness and love for all men, pardon all the sins he (she) has committed in thought word or deed, for there is no man or woman who lives and sins not, You only are without sin.
For You are the Resurrection, the Life, and Repose of Your servant (name), departed this life, O Christ our God; and to You do we send up glory with Your Eternal Father and Your All-holy, Good and Life-creating Spirit; both now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen
 
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2Timothy2:15

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Please read my post earlier, I've already detailed the response I was expecting from you: "he was just not there" and then pasting in verses that have "dead" or "death" in them.

First of all, if Onesiphorus was just AWOL, Paul would not pray to God to give him mercy on THAT DAY. He would also not leave him out of on 2 Tim 4:19.

Second, what proves your interpretation of this story (as well as the verses you are using to disprove praying for the dead) is wrong, is because I have posted the historical sources of this being done by the early christians who existed before Catholicism. In addition to the Maccabees, I know you don't accept the book to be inspired, regardless it is still considered historical to the Jews. Hanukkah is about it. So as a historical book, it shows that Jews also believed this.

You need to rely on historical-early church as a cross checking of bible interpretations --especially when you start claiming something as biblically unsupportive, because why would the early christians and early church fathers (who were all taught by the Apostles of Jesus) do all that, knowing it is wrong?

Repeating the same argument about "church fathers" does not make your stance true or correct. I do not need to rely on early church history. I have the Holy Spirit and he leads me to truth. Using sound doctrine and good hermanuetics is what I will rely on with the Holy Spirit and not traditions of men.
 
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Cis.jd

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Repeating the same argument about "church fathers" does not make your stance true or correct. I do not need to rely on early church history. I have the Holy Spirit and he leads me to truth. Using sound doctrine and good hermanuetics is what I will rely on with the Holy Spirit and not traditions of men.

I did not just post "church fathers", so it's apparent that you just skip paragraphs.
Also, claiming that "God has lead you to truth" is something the everybody has made to elevate their views. JW's, Mormons and even Muslims claim this. How can you claim the HS leads you to truth, when you were given sources about the first christians during the beginning of Christianity?Your "truth" isn't truth, it is just an interpretation that you learned from a protestant who founded your denomination.

It is the rejection of praying for the dead that is a tradition of man because you see it date as far back as ancient Judaism.
 
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Does not seem that they minded being invited to a three day feast and there is no record that the indians ever invited the English over to their place for such a feast that they did not have to prepare.

Looks like somebody needs to brush up on their history... ^_^

Thanksgiving or the giving of thanks to God is very Christian and those Christians blessed the local people. You might not like it but it is nevertheless true.

I have no issues with either of those things or even with Thanksgiving as a whole. I think it’s a wonderful holiday. That said, I do know the actual history of Thanksgiving and not the Snoopy and Charlie Brown version.
 
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