Christianity, Utilitarianism and experiencing the maximization of the utility?

TruthSeek3r

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First, as an intro, a quote from Utilitarianism - Wikipedia:

In ethical philosophy, utilitarianism is a family of normative ethical theories that prescribe actions that maximize happiness and well-being for all affected individuals.[1][2]
Although different varieties of utilitarianism admit different characterizations, the basic idea behind all of them is, in some sense, to maximize utility, which is often defined in terms of well-being or related concepts. For instance, Jeremy Bentham, the founder of utilitarianism, described utility as:
That property in any object, whereby it tends to produce benefit, advantage, pleasure, good, or happiness ... [or] to prevent the happening of mischief, pain, evil, or unhappiness to the party whose interest is considered.
So, I had the following thought. What if Christianity can be described as a specific kind of utilitarianism? If we think about it, in Christianity the whole point is to pursue the maximization of God and God's creation's utility function. Under a Christian worldview, God has created everything in such a way that certain states are preferable over other states. So there must be some sort of utility function that allows God to compare different states of affairs and decide that X is better than Y. Thus, we can frame all sorts of sinful habits (e.g. addictions, drugs, alcohol, food, sex, inappropriate content, gambling, greed, etc.) as "sins" because they lead to suboptimal utility (mathematically speaking). More formally, we could frame Christianity as an optimization problem, and say that sinful behaviors lead people to get stuck in local maxima of God's utility function, and that people who get stuck in these local maxima are unable to escape and are ignoring and missing out on a whole unexplored subspace of God's utility function that leads to the global maximum.

This formulation makes a lot of sense to me. However, a clear implication of this utilitarian reinterpretation of Christianity is the fact that, if true, this should be testable empirically. This utilitarian reinterpretation of Christianity presupposes that it is in fact possible to experience levels of utility way beyond any possible local maxima that can be attained through sinful habits. In fact, under a Christian worldview, sinful habits only operate at the level of the "flesh", you can only get so far by maximizing "fleshly utility" through them. However, if Christianity is true, then God exists and the spiritual realm exists, and so it's very likely that the global maximum of the utility function can only be attained and experienced by tapping into the spiritual realm somehow. That is, if you want to reach levels of utility beyond anything the flesh can offer, you need to get in touch with the supernatural dimension somehow, empirically, in real life. For example, I've heard testimonies of people claiming that they have experienced the supernatural presence of God, which is an experience so extraordinary that its "utility" makes all the pleasures of the flesh pale and look like trash in comparison (example).

Question: Is there a method/algorithm to attain and experience (empirically, in real life) levels of "supernatural utility" (global maximum) way beyond all the suboptimal "pleasures of the flesh" (local maxima), under an utilitarian interpretation of Christianity? Is there an algorithm to maximize the Christian utility function and empirically observe palpable results of this utility?
 
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disciple Clint

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First, as an intro, a quote from Utilitarianism - Wikipedia:


So, I had the following thought. What if Christianity can be described as a specific kind of utilitarianism? If we think about it, in Christianity the whole point is to pursue the maximization of God and God's creation's utility function. Under a Christian worldview, God has created everything in such a way that certain states are preferable over other states. So there must be some sort of utility function that allows God to compare different states of affairs and decide that X is better than Y. Thus, we can frame all sorts of sinful habits (e.g. addictions, drugs, alcohol, food, sex, inappropriate content, gambling, greed, etc.) as "sins" because they lead to suboptimal utility (mathematically speaking). More formally, we could frame Christianity as an optimization problem, and say that sinful behaviors lead people to get stuck in local maxima of God's utility function, and that people who get stuck in these local maxima are unable to escape and are ignoring and missing out on a whole unexplored subspace of God's utility function that leads to the global maximum.

This formulation makes a lot of sense to me. However, a clear implication of this utilitarian reinterpretation of Christianity is the fact that, if true, this should be testable empirically. This utilitarian reinterpretation of Christianity presupposes that it is in fact possible to experience levels of utility way beyond any possible local minima that can be attained through sinful habits. In fact, under a Christian worldview, sinful habits only operate at the level of the "flesh", you can only get so far by maximizing "fleshly utility" through them. However, if Christianity is true, then God exists and the spiritual realm exists, and so it's very likely that the global maximum of the utility function can only be attained and experienced by tapping into the spiritual realm somehow. That is, if you want to reach levels of utility beyond anything the flesh can offer, you need to get in touch with the supernatural dimension somehow, empirically, in real life. For example, I've heard testimonies of people claiming that they have experienced the supernatural presence of God, which is an experience so extraordinary that its "utility" makes all the pleasures of the flesh pale and look like trash in comparison (example).

Question: Is there a method/algorithm to attain and experience (empirically, in real life) levels of "supernatural utility" (global maximum) way beyond all the suboptimal "pleasures of the flesh" (local maxima), under an utilitarian interpretation of Christianity? Is there an algorithm to maximize the Christian utility function and empirically observe palpable results of this utility?
seems to me that the word supernatural disqualifies it as something that can be achieved by humans.
 
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YahuahSaves

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However, if Christianity is true, then God exists and the spiritual realm exists, and so it's very likely that the global maximum of the utility function can only be attained and experienced by tapping into the spiritual realm somehow. That is, if you want to reach levels of utility beyond anything the flesh can offer, you need to get in touch with the supernatural dimension somehow, empirically, in real life.
Are you a believer in God (The Father, Son and Holy Spirit)?

You do know, everything you just quoted suggests that you think Gods power can be attained without his input. It sounds like another version of new age theology that man have an inherent spiritual nature that is connected to God and therefore can become God. (Satan's deceptive counterfeit for Gods truth).

Viewing God like a machine (or a mathematical equation) is just straight up ignorance of his power and authority and shows your lack of understanding about the spiritual realm in general.
 
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YahuahSaves

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What about the testimony I linked?
I watched it... my question is what does it have to do with your OP?
Are you wanting to experience the presence of the Lord? Well you can do that anywhere, but if your reason is to solely feel his power (as your OP is referring to), then you'll be disappointed.

Check your hearts intentions carefully, because that is what the Lord looks at. (Nothing is hidden from his sight).
 
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TruthSeek3r

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I watched it... my question is what does it have to do with your OP?

Brother Hyeok literally said that everything of the world is trash next to experiencing the presence of God. That's perfectly consistent with the utilitarian formulation I suggest in the OP.

Are you wanting to experience the presence of the Lord? Well you can do that anywhere,

How?

but if your reason is to solely feel his power (as your OP is referring to), then you'll be disappointed.

I never used the word "power" in the OP.
 
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YahuahSaves

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Brother Hyeok literally said that everything of the world is trash next to experiencing the presence of God. That's perfectly consistent with the utilitarian formulation I suggest in the OP.

Well Paul in the bible said it first... he considers everything rubbish compared to Christ.


Are you a Christian?
I told you how in the previous post... what is the intention of your heart when seeking the presence of God? What are you truly seeking?

I never used the word "power" in the OP.

It was the impression I got reading it in its entirety.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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Are you a believer in God (The Father, Son and Holy Spirit)?

I'm open to the possibility.

You do know, everything you just quoted suggests that you think Gods power can be attained without his input. It sounds like another version of new age theology that man have an inherent spiritual nature that is connected to God and therefore can become God. (Satan's deceptive counterfeit for Gods truth).

I never said that you can become God. I only said that there is an utility function that can be optimized. I didn't say anything about how it can be optimized.

Viewing God like a machine (or a mathematical equation) is just straight up ignorance of his power and authority and shows your lack of understanding about the spiritual realm in general.

I didn't say that God Himself is a machine or a mathematical equation. I'm only saying that the utility function (probably) is. Look at the physical realm. Physics can be described mathematically. If God created the universe, isn't it evident that He has an appreciation for mathematics?

Are you an expert in the spiritual realm? Could you please share your firsthand knowledge of it?
 
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TruthSeek3r

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Are you a Christian?
I'm open to the possibility of Christianity being true.

I told you how in the previous post... what is the intention of your heart when seeking the presence of God? What are you truly seeking?
I'm seeking the truth, the meaning of life, the maximization of the utility of life.

It was the impression I got reading it in its entirety.

Why did you get the impression that I was talking about "power"? What do you mean by "power"?
 
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YahuahSaves

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I'm open to the possibility.
Of Christianity in general, or the holy trinity?
There is a difference.

I never said that you can become God. I only said that there is an utility function that can be optimized. I didn't say anything about how it can be optimized.

I didn't say that God Himself is a machine or a mathematical equation. I'm only saying that the utility function (probably) is. Look at the physical realm. Physics can be described mathematically. If God created the universe, isn't it evident that He has an appreciation for mathematics?
Sure he does..it's part of his design...so please describe what you mean by the "utility function", what is that? And when you say "optimize it", what do you mean by that? Layman's terms please (I'm not a maths or physics major).

Are you an expert in the spiritual realm? Could you please share your firsthand knowledge of it?
I am talking about how we interact with the spiritual realm. We do so through the Holy Spirits guidance. Some such as "ghost hunters" and the like, will use tools to try to communicate with it, but without God, a person can fall victim (be deceived) by Satan and demons.
 
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YahuahSaves

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'm seeking the truth, the meaning of life, the maximization of the utility of life.

John 14:6

6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

Why did you get the impression that I was talking about "power"? What do you mean by "power"?
You were talking about "optimisation".
 
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TruthSeek3r

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Tolworth John

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I'm open to the possibility of Christianity being true.
Are you willing to investigate Christianity as found in the bible?
Have you looked at the historical accuracy of the gospel accounts? Have you seen how historians accept that Jesus lived, was crucified, buried, that his tomb was found to be empty and that the disciples were rsdically changed after there meeting with the risen Jesus.
How do you account for these historical facts?
I'm seeking the truth, the meaning of life, the maximization of the utility of life.
What is truth?
Jesus claimed to be The Truth, the Way and the Life. Bold claims yet look at the influence he has had and still is having on the world.

There is more to life than just this life, there is an after life. Yes Heaven and Hell. Please ignore what you've been taught at school in the media and in church. Check it out for yourself.
 
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YahuahSaves

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I'm open to both.
Well have you read the bible? People often say start with the gospel of John... I say read everything on Jesus ministry on earth first, he is the express nature of the Father in heaven and it is shown in the gospels.

There are plenty of "Christian" denominations out there (just browse this site), but the bible states Jesus the Son of God, is the only way to be reconciled to the Father.
The Holy Trinity (which is referenced in scripture, although some ignore that,) is 1 God, 3 persons (The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God). You look at it like 1 God, but the 3 (equal) persons have different roles.. I has it explained to me like a man can be a Father, a son and an uncle, but it's still 1 man, make sense?

I won't bother to reply to your Wikipedia inserts, I asked you to explain in your own words in layman's terms. But it sounds like utility descibes consumption, as if the one true God is not the only choice there is, where in fact, every other way leads to death.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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Are you willing to investigate Christianity as found in the bible?
Have you looked at the historical accuracy of the gospel accounts? Have you seen how historians accept that Jesus lived, was crucified, buried, that his tomb was found to be empty and that the disciples were rsdically changed after there meeting with the risen Jesus.
How do you account for these historical facts?

Can you please provide sources to back this all up? Say, the best books/journal articles you have read on this.

What is truth?
Jesus claimed to be The Truth, the Way and the Life. Bold claims yet look at the influence he has had and still is having on the world.

There is more to life than just this life, there is an after life. Yes Heaven and Hell. Please ignore what you've been taught at school in the media and in church. Check it out for yourself.

How can I "check it out" for myself? Is there a method?
 
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TruthSeek3r

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Well have you read the bible? People often say start with the gospel of John... I say read everything on Jesus ministry on earth first, he is the express nature of the Father in heaven and it is shown in the gospels.

Yes, I've read the whole Bible at least once.

There are plenty of "Christian" denominations out there (just browse this site), but the bible states Jesus the Son of God, is the only way to be reconciled to the Father.
The Holy Trinity (which is referenced in scripture, although some ignore that,) is 1 God, 3 persons (The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God). You look at it like 1 God, but the 3 (equal) persons have different roles.. I has it explained to me like a man can be a Father, a son and an uncle, but it's still 1 man, make sense?

Non-trinitarians would be happy to debate this, but I don't want to get sidetracked by that whole discussion.

I won't bother to reply to your Wikipedia inserts, I asked you to explain in your own words in layman's terms. But it sounds like utility descibes consumption, as if the one true God is not the only choice there is, where in fact, every other way leads to death.
How much mathematical background do you have? Are you familiar with calculus?
 
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Tolworth John

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Can you please provide sources to back this all up? Say, the best books/journal articles you have read on this.



How can I "check it out" for myself? Is there a method?

Lee Strobel's book the case for Christ, or check out dr g Habermases web site and youtube lectures, again the reasonable faith web site has arguments, articles and debates about the factual reliability and accuracy of the bible.

How do you check out Christianity, by reading the bible andsites that dbate or examine the issues involved in Christianity.
Sites like those above, others are answersingenesis, a young earth site but because theybelieve what the bible says, they have many articles defending it.
Wintery knight for science based arguments for God.
 
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YahuahSaves

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Yes, I've read the whole Bible at least once.
Chronologically? (I've heard this is the correct way to read it). That aside, it is a tool but it is not the complete way of having a relationship with God.. I had things from the bible revealed to me before I ever read it completely. That being said, I've read and absorbed the NT, flicked through the OT, which essentially the whole bible points to Jesus anyway.

Non-trinitarians would be happy to debate this, but I don't want to get sidetracked by that whole discussion.
There's no debate for me because I already know he is who he says he is. The bible says it clearly for those who are open to seeing it. And once he reveals himself to you, there is no denying who he is.
 
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