Christianity in a multiverse

[Tone]

means you completely devote yourself to it

It?

 

[Halbhh]

It seems more fair to say diabolism and idolatry are just special pleading pejoratives aimed at the "wrong team" while the home team does pretty much the same thing.

That might be a possible way to see things until we notice that love is the central commandment for us here.

Which 'team' is the right team?

It's going to be the team that instructs us to do what causes peace, progress, civility --

"Love your neighbor as yourself"

and even:

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? "

and more:

21Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

 

[Kaon]

The strength of cloudyday's point is that in a multiverse the apparent contradictions of the god are multiplied, increasing the heavy lifting required for the theologian to explain them away. Your marriage analogy is fine as far as it goes but I think we can both agree there is no apples to apples natural analogy for the supernatural have-your-cake-and-eat-it reality the trinitarian god is purported to be. Transcendence is after all one of his major selling points right?

That is because people are handicapped by logic, reason, and what other people tell them - especially if they have letters before and after their name.

A multiverse and a singular, prime God is a paradox, not a fallacy of any kind - the only fallacy lies in one's ability to reconcile the two. If you think of it as a mathematics concept, there will always be a prime generator of a set of mathematical objects; likewise, there is always a prime set for the Creation - no matter "how many" there are.

Salvation is the major selling points; no one is "transcending"; that is a romanticism of a very natural phenomenon of change and refinement. Heaven will be on this plane of existence. Marriage is the spiritual allusion to the secrets of the universe, which is why the foundation of the relationship between the Word of God and His people is a marriage. We have just bastardized the union, turned it into an institution, and made it inert due to our ignorance on where marriage came from, and what it is about.

Yes and no. Some forms of Judaism and Christianity are transactional and some forms of witchcraft are not. The Deuteronomist insists that community obedience combined with priestly rituals guarantee favors from the god.

Because they are human, and must interpolate their own dogma in order to justify their obedience to something that is intangible. It is a "psycho-spiritual" problem issue that still occurs today.

Jesus blames unmet prayer requests on the requester's lack of trust or obedience.

And, a lack of alignment of one's will to the will of the Father. This is the part always forgotten - your prayers will be answered if your are aligned with the will of the Most High God. Would your dad on earth answer your request for a gun when you are 3 years old? Does it matter how much you pray plead with him? The Most High God gave us a direct representation of the relationship we should expect with Him - our parents. And, very few parents will give their child something they feel will harm them.

On the other hand, if you ask for something that is enriching, most all parents will literally sacrifice themselves to get you what you need/want.

Meanwhile maleficia based witchcraft often places all the supernatural power squarely in the hands of the practitioner such as evil eye, death wish; and countless sorcery practices like dactyliomancy, oneiroscopy, and scapulomancy gain their power from the users' mastery of wordly implements like finger rings, dreams, and animal shoulders, etc.

This is not witchcraft; most of these are power siphoning techniques, not techniques that actually utilize the person's [borrowed] powers. Witchcraft is a contract; you don't even need to have "powers and abilities" as we know it; you can just make a quid pro quo contract with an entity you believe can grant you what you want. Moreover, the contract is binding beyond this plane of existence - whether or not you believe in a soul or spirit (this is what traps people).

What separates a witch from a person who has "gifts" is that the witch forges a contract with an [inter-dimensional] entity in order to receive gifts - instead of allowing "circumstance and evolution" to provide it (i.e. the will of the Most High God).

The Word of God uses women as a metaphor for churches/people of faith. Virgin women are faithful churches/people who have not dabbled or tried to make covenants/contracts with other entities that call themselves gods. harlots are churches/people that align themselves with the aforementioned entities. Again, we have the foundation explained in terms of marriage: anyone who practices witchcraft and claims to have the Most High God as a Father commits adultery against Him.

Diabolism is a little closer to what you describe as a contractual relationship between a god and human, but again Christianity's relationship to god contracts is ambivalent even today, faith healers being one example. It seems more fair to say diabolism and idolatry are just special pleading pejoratives aimed at the "wrong team" while the home team does pretty much the same thing.

This practice isn't unique to any "ism", Christianity or any other man-influenced religion - it is a fact of this plane of existence. The monikers for these religions are just a matter of linguistic and cultural influence (twix commercial) . Before people became "enlightened" and threw away everything fantastic, it was known that entities in other dimensions entice men. Some religions followed these entities and worshiped them; many still do. But, the mechanism and physics of witchcraft, as it were, is the same: you are making a contract with an entity in order to gain power and ability to execute your will. Some religions may try to sensationalize or marginalize the danger, but it is the same all around.

I am actually not totally deaf to these kinds of noises. But a god who is a stand in for everything does looks a lot like a shapeless free for all. In which case why bother, let's just call it "reality" and get on studying it.

Because "reality" is a lesser god with an actual Gnostic name, and the Most High God is the Most High God. See, what we thin we have uncovered today is nothing; we have been severely lied to, and led to believe we have no connection to tangential and higher planes of existence unless someone official (i.e. letters behind and before the name) tells us we have permission to believe it. Humans have always handicapped themselves by logic and reason.

Shaplessness is not "shapeless", and the Most High God has an avatar/Image for all of Creation (in all "multiverses") to interact with - the Word of God Himself.

 

[Kaon]

It?

Yes; lesser gods that entice humans come in both male and female form - despite their original design.

 

[awitch]

This is not witchcraft; most of these are power siphoning techniques, not techniques that actually utilize the person's [borrowed] powers. Witchcraft is a contract; you don't even need to have "powers and abilities" as we know it; you can just make a quid pro quo contract with an entity you believe can grant you what you want. Moreover, the contract is binding beyond this plane of existence - whether or not you believe in a soul or spirit (this is what traps people).

What separates a witch from a person who has "gifts" is that the witch forges a contract with an [inter-dimensional] entity in order to receive gifts - instead of allowing "circumstance and evolution" to provide it (i.e. the will of the Most High God).

Horror movies aside, this is false. There is no contract. It's actually quite the opposite; There is no promise of reward or threat of punishment.

It's the Abrahamic religions' followers that are bound by contract; worship as per scripture or be punished for eternity.

 

[Kaon]

Horror movies aside, this is false. There is no contract. It's actually quite the opposite; There is no promise of reward or threat of punishment.

It's the Abrahamic religions' followers that are bound by contract; worship as per scripture or be punished for eternity.

I am not talking about a contract on paper for any of these. The contracts are always spiritual, and they happen whether you are cognizant of the union or not - if you do what it takes to agree to and adhere to the contract.

For example, someone may not call themselves a Christian, but if they believe that the Word of God is the Truth and way to Life, that He died for the remission of sins and was resurrected, and also tries to be obedient to the Most High God - they are "Christian".

If you agree to the terms and conditions of a contract (no matter how ignorant of the mechanism you are), you are bound to it. It is up to the executor(s) of the contract to determine what happens as you keep the conditions, and/or if you breach. There are many people practicing witchcraft without realizing it, and many who are very aware of what they are doing. The contract you make with entities that call themselves gods is spiritual; only we are so degenerate to let ink and paper dictate the trajectory of our lives.

 

[Kaon]

Horror movies aside, this is false. There is no contract. It's actually quite the opposite; There is no promise of reward or threat of punishment.

It's the Abrahamic religions' followers that are bound by contract; worship as per scripture or be punished for eternity.

Paganism is different from witchcraft; one is a set of beliefs and proverbs on how to interact with nature, the other is the descriptor for the objectivity and operation of a spiritual contract made with lesser gods.

 

[awitch]

I am not talking about a contract on paper for any of these. The contracts are always spiritual, and they happen whether you are cognizant of the union or not - if you do what it takes to agree to and adhere to the contract.

I've been a practicing witch for two decades. But since you're clearly an expert, please inform me of what my "contract" is.

If you agree to the terms and conditions of a contract (no matter how ignorant of the mechanism you are), you are bound to it.

Contracts are legally voidable if information is withheld, misrepresented, or false. They are also legally voidable when made under duress, made when ineligible, or if the terms are unconscionable.

 

[Kaon]

I've been a practicing witch for two decades. But since you're clearly an expert, please inform me of what my "contract" is.

You have been a practicing witch? You mean, you are a pagan witch, or you are saying paganism is witchcraft? If it is the latter, then it would be an error: paganism isn't witchcraft.

You can be a witch, and declare yourself as a "religious" person because a witch is the literal contractual "property" of a spiritual entity. It is not a religion; it is a spiritual designation. Indeed, there were/are many Hebrews and Christians that are witches and do/not realize it.

You may not actually be in a contract. Did you make an agreement with any entity? Nature? A god? Yourself?

Everything I mentioned has a "godly" entity associated with it, and often have masqueraded as living gods in history. You may be in a contract, and don't realize it. But, you aren't going to exploit any spiritual relationship without entering into a contract.

Contracts are legally voidable if information is withheld, misrepresented, or false. They are also legally voidable when made under duress, made when ineligible, or if the terms are unconscionable.

For humans, on this plane of existence - maybe. The problem is you are applying human logic and reason to spirituality - which is myopic at best. Unless you have communicated the terms and conditions of your contract with the executor (like any other contract), you don't know what actions will allow you to void your contract.

Witchcraft is a spiritual contract, and if you don't believe in a spirit (for example), then you are already at a disadvantage.

 

[awitch]

You have been a practicing witch? You mean, you are a pagan witch, or you are saying paganism is witchcraft? If it is the latter, then it would be an error: paganism isn't witchcraft.

Paganism is an extremely generic term for non-Abrahamic religions. It can include, but is not limited to Wiccans, Hindus, Shintoist, Asatru, Druids, some Buddhists, etc

Wiccans are Pagans and they are witches, but not all witches are Wiccan. I am a male witch that is not a Wiccan.

Witchcraft is a practice that is performed by some Pagans. And yes, there are people of non-Pagan religions that perform rites that are at least parallel to witchcraft.

You may not actually be in a contract. Did you make an agreement with any entity? Nature? A god? Yourself?

I already said there are no contracts involved.

Witchcraft is a spiritual contract, and if you don't believe in a spirit (for example), then you are already at a disadvantage.

You watch too many horror movies.

 

[Kaon]

Paganism is an extremely generic term for non-Abrahamic religions. It can include, but is not limited to Wiccans, Hindus, Shintoist, Asatru, Druids, some Buddhists, etc

Wiccans are Pagans and they are witches, but not all witches are Wiccan. I am a male witch that is not a Wiccan.

Witchcraft is a practice that is performed by some Pagans. And yes, there are people of non-Pagan religions that perform rites that are at least parallel to witchcraft.



I already said there are no contracts involved.



You watch too many horror movies.

Ok.

 

[cloudyday2]

I already said there are no contracts involved.

No contracts involved and no monthly payments for 6 months

 

[awitch]

No contracts involved and no monthly payments for 6 months

Batteries not included and some assembly required. May cause contentment.

 

[Carbon]

people are handicapped by logic, reason

It feels like shooting fish in a barrel to point out that many people are turned away from religion when they see this total embrace of unreason. But to give the devil his due if left-handedly, rational argument is a pathetically impractical form of persuasion precisely because most humans are *not* handicapped by logic and reason. Humans are driven primarily by gut emotions. Did you see Neil DeGrasse Tyson recently get torched by the Twitter mob for stating facts? Plato rarely gets anything right but one thing he nails is, people are dragged kicking and screaming into the light of reality.

To lasso this topic back to the original post, is there any universe where intelligent beings act primarily from reason rather than gut? I doubt it. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing.

there is always a prime set for the Creation

Or not. An uncreated ultra-simple quantum field is a much more parsimonious explanation of our universe than an uncreated ultra-complex god.

Because they are human, and must interpolate their own dogma in order to justify their obedience to something that is intangible

Is this a concession that the bible is not the perfect word of Yahweh?

This is the part always forgotten - your prayers will be answered if your are aligned with the will of the Most High God

Jesus doesn't necessarily agree. Often the promise of requests being granted is free of conditions, other than believing the request will be granted.

This is not witchcraft; most of these are power siphoning techniques

Your understanding of witchcraft seems to arise from enemy accounts. That's fine but if the rest of us are defining witchcraft in the sense used by scholars and historians, then maybe we should plant a flag here to avoid talking past each other.

anyone who practices witchcraft and claims to have the Most High God as a Father commits adultery against Him

Out of pure curiosity, how many people who claim to be Christians would you guess are currently in a contract with the devil? How many of those entered the contract unknowingly?

 

[Kaon]

It feels like shooting fish in a barrel to point out that many people are turned away from religion when they see this total embrace of unreason. But to give the devil his due if left-handedly, rational argument is a pathetically impractical form of persuasion precisely because most humans are *not* handicapped by logic and reason. Humans are driven primarily by gut emotions. Did you see Neil DeGrasse Tyson recently get torched by the Twitter mob for stating facts? Plato rarely gets anything right but one thing he nails is, people are dragged kicking and screaming into the light of reality.

The majority of people who believe they are Christian will be denied - this is from the Word of God Himself. Consensus isn't the best measure for spiritual truth, which is why using reason (heavily dependent on what "everyone" considers acceptable) usually fails people, and turns them away. Christianity is a relationship; relationships are not "rational" on earth when they work. You cannot teach or institutionalize a relationship if you want it to be successful.

On the other hand, I never said don't use reason. I said using it handicaps us - which is fine if you want your progression to be glacial.

To lasso this topic back to the original post, is there any universe where intelligent beings act primarily from reason rather than gut? I doubt it. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing.

From reason rather than gut? I'm not understanding; isn't that what [we think] we do in this dimension universe?

Or not. An uncreated ultra-simple quantum field is a much more parsimonious explanation of our universe than an uncreated ultra-complex god.

I am talking about quantum field theory as a metaphor for the Most High God. Every field has a prime generator of dimension and evolves action (S). The Most High God is the Prime of all primes. I didn't want to be long-winded, and waste my time trying to explain the physics or math.

Is this a concession that the bible is not the perfect word of Yahweh?

The Word of God is a Living entity; the bible is a canonical text.

Every denomination has their own bible, or at least their own parts that they follow. But, the complete Word of God resurrected after being murdered by His own people, and He can't be diminished.

Jesus doesn't necessarily agree. Often the promise of requests being granted is free of conditions, other than believing the request will be granted.

No, the Word of God specifically tells us that we pray according to the will of the Father - not according to our own lusts and wants.

Your understanding of witchcraft seems to arise from enemy accounts. That's fine but if the rest of us are defining witchcraft in the sense used by scholars and historians, then maybe we should plant a flag here to avoid talking past each other.

Ok.

Out of pure curiosity, how many people who claim to be Christians would you guess are currently in a contract with the devil? How many of those entered the contract unknowingly?

The Word of God has already told us there are many wolves in sheep's clothing. Plenty of Christians have made contracts with entities that can "help" then in whatever direction the want to move in.

A bunch know what they are doing; some are ignorant of witchcraft and covenants - but that isn't an excuse (especially for predatory spirits).

 

[Noxot]

To lasso this topic back to the original post, is there any universe where intelligent beings act primarily from reason rather than gut? I doubt it. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing.

The newly-created myth known as "Vulcans" depicts a being that depends on logic. I don't know if there are other myths of Highly rational beings. Maybe viruses and smaller single-celled creatures could be considered to be logic-based.

if AI succeeds then we will have very very many logic-based beings.

but I think human desire and emotions are also part of a kind of logic system. It seems like all of the universe is a logic system. Mathematicians really love their math.

 

[dlamberth]

but I think human desire and emotions are also part of a kind of logic system. It seems like all of the universe is a logic system.

When looking at Wild Nature, I don't see much logic there. A lot of creativity, receptivity, and responses to sensitivity, yes. But not logic. And when looking at the indigenous people, they operate more at a subjective experiential perspective of awareness. Which seems to point more towards how Human Beings approached life these past 200,000 years or so. Logic it seems to me is a fairly new approach in Human development.

 

[HopeInJesusOnly]

The Most High God is THE Prime of Righteousness, Truth and Power. That is why He is the "Most High" of the "gods" - in fact, since He is the Most High, He is the only One who could be called God.

This MHG is the One who generates all space and dimensions. He is independent of the multiverses, as it were, and so is His Son- the Word of God - who was existent before anything else, and created everything.

We start with 1.

That one has 1.

That 1 creates to give 2.

Those two create to give three.

The three create to give five...


and so on.


It all begins with a prime generator. So, we cannot have an "infinity" without a generator of infinity. This is why the victory of the Word of God Himself is such a big deal - it spans the Hell dimension all the way through, around just before the first heaven. It redeems those who were swindled out of their birthright by entities from other dimensions/heavens/universes.

When people say "multiverse", they really mean multiple full dimensions. These dimensions are tangent to ours. We keep trying to poke holes in the dimensions to see what is behind, but we don't realize we are fulfilling the prophecy of the bottomless pit opening and allowing entities into our dimension.

The War in Heaven is inter-dimensional.

What if the dimensions are the pit, and one can continue sinking further down into other dimensions. Can one come back (rise back up)? Can Jesus restore?

 

[Kaon]

What if the dimensions are the pit, and one can continue sinking further down into other dimensions. Can one come back (rise back up)? Can Jesus restore?

It is - and when the smoke of entities burn forever, it can be imagined as one oscillating at the abyss of a potential well (like a black hole continuously obliterating your essence, and sending the gamma radiation "up" tens of thousands of light years forever). You can be saved by the Word of God; I believe He did this for Adam, Noah, Enoch, Jacob - and all of the men and women who died before He resurrected and gave us a chance as Redemption. But, this restoration is only applicable to humans; spiritual entities that choose to leave their original plane of existence do not get the luxury to go back. The Word of God chose to literally go to hell and back for us; that is a bit different. He was perfect, so He was deserved resurrection as perfect entities of the Most High God do not die.

Other "dimensions" are heavenly. This plane of existence is the crown jewel of hell, and the foundation of the heavens.

 

[Carbon]

if AI succeeds then we will have very very many logic-based beings

Funny, I would say the truth is the exact opposite. Let’s introduce the concept Artificial non-General Intelligence. We’ll call it non-AGI for short and use it to contrast with true AGI. Only a non-AGI can be 100% logical, in the sense of following the laws (logic) of its source code as written. Which means no new knowledge is created. Only rules are followed even if those rules are really dumb or harmful. Not sure if you know how to code but if you do, you know this is true

A true AGI is just like any other intelligence be it human or otherwise. It creates knowledge by the Popperian process of conjecture and refutation.

For this reason I was careful to specify that I doubt any *intelligent* being will be purely logical, not that any computational process can faithfully follow its internal logic.

But let’s assume I am right that all knowledge creation follows the same Popperian process. How does this imply that gut instincts rather than only pure logic will play a role in this process, even for machine intelligence for goodness sakes?

Simple, because shortcut rules of thumb are sometimes good enough to be actionable, and always cheaper than rigorous analysis. AGI’s will compete with each other according to their ability to complete goals. Any AGI able to achieve a goal faster and cheaper than its competition will win. Enter gut emotions. Emotions are just shortcuts after all. Any AGI that doesn’t develop enough System 1 rough and ready “emotions” to get the job done will be left in the dust. That is, fail to copy itself.

Bonus cliffhanger, will AGIs then be susceptible to religion? Yes I would guess so.