Christianity in a multiverse

[cloudyday2]

For purposes of this thread, imagine that anything that has any probability of happening DOES happen in some alternate universe of the multiverse. Many Christians are willing to entertain the possibility of a multiverse, but what are the implications for Christian theology?

Here are a few thoughts to start:
- If Jesus CHOSE to be righteous in this universe then Jesus must have made the opposite choice in an alternate universe. Imagine Jesus bowing to Satan and becoming an enemy of the Father.
- If Christians CHOSE to believe then there is an alternate universe where they made the opposite choice.
- If God CHOSE this or that option then there are alternate universes where he chose differently.
- What is the person when alternate versions exist. Can we say God is righteous if he is only righteous in our universe and unrighteous in alternative universes? If God doesn't make a CHOICE to be righteous then is he truly righteous? And if God makes a choice then there must be alternate universes.

Just random thoughts. I am certain that people will have other thoughts (hopefully).

 

[Halbhh]

For purposes of this thread, imagine that anything that has any probability of happening DOES happen in some alternate universe of the multiverse. Many Christians are willing to entertain the possibility of a multiverse, but what are the implications for Christian theology?

Here are a few thoughts to start:
- If Jesus CHOSE to be righteous in this universe then Jesus must have made the opposite choice in an alternate universe. Imagine Jesus bowing to Satan and becoming an enemy of the Father.
- If Christians CHOSE to believe then there is an alternate universe where they made the opposite choice.
- If God CHOSE this or that option then there are alternate universes where he chose differently.
- What is the person when alternate versions exist. Can we say God is righteous if he is only righteous in our universe and unrighteous in alternative universes? If God doesn't make a CHOICE to be righteous then is he truly righteous? And if God makes a choice then there must be alternate universes.

Just random thoughts. I am certain that people will have other thoughts (hopefully).

I would love to fully respond using all assumptions here that make sense as possible, and I do think in contrast to this scenario just only multiverse by itself is quite possible and would be able to fit with all we learn in scripture (where in fact physics theory details are never mentioned), but the idea that every possible outcome happens is called the "Many Worlds Interpretation" Many-worlds interpretation - Wikipedia -- and to me, honestly, and I'm not offended by it, but it's simply my honest reaction, it's totally without connection to normal makes-sense existence in my view, in contrast to so many other interpretations (like the Copenhagen Interpretation, Bohmian Interpretation, etc.). Since all those other competing interpretations do make sense to me (and generally by the way allow a multiverse possibility in case you care), they are all far more likely in my guesstimation.

There is this general response that may be helpful -- we are made in God's "image" -- in some key way like himself. As Christ said:
John 10:34 Jesus replied, "Is it not written in your Law: 'I have said you are gods'?

So, a God that is against the Good, against Life, would not make sense as creator of life as we read in scripture. To imagine an evil-doing god is truly an entirely other god, not even slightly compatible with what we know of God in scripture, see.

 

[Kaon]

For purposes of this thread, imagine that anything that has any probability of happening DOES happen in some alternate universe of the multiverse. Many Christians are willing to entertain the possibility of a multiverse, but what are the implications for Christian theology?

Here are a few thoughts to start:
- If Jesus CHOSE to be righteous in this universe then Jesus must have made the opposite choice in an alternate universe. Imagine Jesus bowing to Satan and becoming an enemy of the Father.
- If Christians CHOSE to believe then there is an alternate universe where they made the opposite choice.
- If God CHOSE this or that option then there are alternate universes where he chose differently.
- What is the person when alternate versions exist. Can we say God is righteous if he is only righteous in our universe and unrighteous in alternative universes? If God doesn't make a CHOICE to be righteous then is he truly righteous? And if God makes a choice then there must be alternate universes.

Just random thoughts. I am certain that people will have other thoughts (hopefully).

The Most High God is THE Prime of Righteousness, Truth and Power. That is why He is the "Most High" of the "gods" - in fact, since He is the Most High, He is the only One who could be called God.

This MHG is the One who generates all space and dimensions. He is independent of the multiverses, as it were, and so is His Son- the Word of God - who was existent before anything else, and created everything.

We start with 1.

That one has 1.

That 1 creates to give 2.

Those two create to give three.

The three create to give five...


and so on.


It all begins with a prime generator. So, we cannot have an "infinity" without a generator of infinity. This is why the victory of the Word of God Himself is such a big deal - it spans the Hell dimension all the way through, around just before the first heaven. It redeems those who were swindled out of their birthright by entities from other dimensions/heavens/universes.

When people say "multiverse", they really mean multiple full dimensions. These dimensions are tangent to ours. We keep trying to poke holes in the dimensions to see what is behind, but we don't realize we are fulfilling the prophecy of the bottomless pit opening and allowing entities into our dimension.

The War in Heaven is inter-dimensional.

 

[rockytopva]

In a multiverse what would be the extremes? It is important, for the sake of spirituality, that we divide the man into three parts… Physical, Spiritual, and Intellectual. If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2) And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma, the sun is the visible form of E/c2
Mental E/c2 - Our thinking can produce creativeness, light, and good things
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

The Natural E/c2 in the form of mass produces a gravity that attracts other objects
The Intellectual E/c2 produces a gravity that draws us to study
The Spiritual E/c2 also has a gravity that draws and makes religion attractive

In the world of rgb we have....

Extreme light - rgb(255,255,255)
Variation - rgb(0-255,0-255,0-255)
Extreme darkness - rgb(0,0,0)

Producing a whole spectrum. In the world of the flesh we have a variation as ego, fun, play, and activity that can exist in light or darkness. In the afterlife will the darkness and light be separated leaving the world of the flesh totally eliminated? Leaving only two universes... One of darkness and the other of light? For the Christ once said....

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 22:13

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 25:30

Utter darkness - rgb(0,0,0) - But true darkness....

Mass rgb(0,0,0) - nothing, outer space
Intellectual rgb(0,0,0) - No thought
Spiritual rgb(0,0,0) - The opposite of light - Hate, fear, depression, agony

 

[Ricky M]

Actually it's only a bi-verse, the world and the kingdom of God.

 

[dlamberth]

For purposes of this thread, imagine that anything that has any probability of happening DOES happen in some alternate universe of the multiverse. Many Christians are willing to entertain the possibility of a multiverse, but what are the implications for Christian theology?

Here are a few thoughts to start:
- If Jesus CHOSE to be righteous in this universe then Jesus must have made the opposite choice in an alternate universe. Imagine Jesus bowing to Satan and becoming an enemy of the Father.
- If Christians CHOSE to believe then there is an alternate universe where they made the opposite choice.
- If God CHOSE this or that option then there are alternate universes where he chose differently.
- What is the person when alternate versions exist. Can we say God is righteous if he is only righteous in our universe and unrighteous in alternative universes? If God doesn't make a CHOICE to be righteous then is he truly righteous? And if God makes a choice then there must be alternate universes.

Just random thoughts. I am certain that people will have other thoughts (hopefully).

I'm having trouble with the idea that God and Jesus have the options available to them to "CHOSE" the suggested images.

 

[Kaon]

In a multiverse what would be the extremes? It is important, for the sake of spirituality, that we divide the man into three parts… Physical, Spiritual, and Intellectual. If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2) And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma, the sun is the visible form of E/c2
Mental E/c2 - Our thinking can produce creativeness, light, and good things
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

The Natural E/c2 in the form of mass produces a gravity that attracts other objects
The Intellectual E/c2 produces a gravity that draws us to study
The Spiritual E/c2 also has a gravity that draws and makes religion attractive

In the world of rgb we have....

Extreme light - rgb(255,255,255)
Variation - rgb(0-255,0-255,0-255)
Extreme darkness - rgb(0,0,0)

Producing a whole spectrum. In the world of the flesh we have a variation as ego, fun, play, and activity that can exist in light or darkness. In the afterlife will the darkness and light be separated leaving the world of the flesh totally eliminated? Leaving only two universes... One of darkness and the other of light? For the Christ once said....

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 22:13

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 25:30

Utter darkness - rgb(0,0,0) - But true darkness....

Mass rgb(0,0,0) - nothing, outer space
Intellectual rgb(0,0,0) - No thought
Spiritual rgb(0,0,0) - The opposite of light - Hate, fear, depression, agony

I think people dismiss this type of perspective from a knee-jerk POV, and from an alleged logical/academic POV. I don't necessarily agree with what you lay out (partly because I am unsure on where you are actually going, although you are consistent in your translations/equations - which is why I am still interested). What you say makes sense, although we would have to converse about the details for me, personally to understand your full message.

I am intrigued by your alleged "nonsense" nonetheless. You are consistent. I hope you further expand on what your perspective is so that others (lurking) can understand.

 

[Kaon]

I'm having trouble with the idea that God and Jesus have the options available to them to "CHOSE" the suggested images.

It is heady, but it is there. That is what makes Them so great.

However, They are too magnificent for boundaries; They created the boundaries - even our human idea of infinity (which is still "bounded"). They chose to be Perfection, which is why They are the Primes that generate and control everything else under Them... which is everything in all of space (all dimensions/"universes").

 

[cloudyday2]

I'm having trouble with the idea that God and Jesus have the options available to them to "CHOSE" the suggested images.

According to the gospels, Jesus was tempted by Satan to worship him in exchange for Earthly power, etc. It seems to me that there would be an alternate universe in the multiverse where Jesus agreed to worship Satan. If it was impossible for Jesus to worship Satan then it wasn't a valid temptation and triumph for Jesus.

My opinion is that Christianity doesn't work in a multiverse. The beliefs are mutually exclusive.

 

[rockytopva]

I think people dismiss this type of perspective from a knee-jerk POV, and from an alleged logical/academic POV. I don't necessarily agree with what you lay out (partly because I am unsure on where you are actually going, although you are consistent in your translations/equations - which is why I am still interested). What you say makes sense, although we would have to converse about the details for me, personally to understand your full message.

I am intrigued by your alleged "nonsense" nonetheless. You are consistent. I hope you further expand on what your perspective is so that others (lurking) can understand.

I am a lab technician. While analyzing tin on an AA (atomic absorption) spectrometer with acetylene and nitrous oxide (making a huge flame by the way) it began to dawn on me that everything came together with light and energy. The material E/c2 and spiritual E/c2 are indeed non-sense as they exists independently of reason. So I therefore am a great believer of non-sense, as was the Apostle Paul....

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; - 1 Corinthians 1:23

 

[Kaon]

According to the gospels, Jesus was tempted by Satan to worship him in exchange for Earthly power, etc. It seems to me that there would be an alternate universe in the multiverse where Jesus agreed to worship Satan. If it was impossible for Jesus to worship Satan then it wasn't a valid temptation and triumph for Jesus.

My opinion is that Christianity doesn't work in a multiverse. The beliefs are mutually exclusive.

The Most High God and the Redeemer are Primes. The Redeemer created everything, and the Most High God is the Arbiter of everything.


From them comes your "possibilities"; a luxury of "real evolution" from the Most High God.

 

[cloudyday2]

So, a God that is against the Good, against Life, would not make sense as creator of life as we read in scripture. To imagine an evil-doing god is truly an entirely other god, not even slightly compatible with what we know of God in scripture, see.

One issue is whether humans transcend their brains. When a human chooses is that "freewill" determined solely by the degrees of freedom of particles in their brains? If so, then I would say that all possible human choices would exist in the multiverse. ... On the other hand maybe there is some part of humans that transcends physics and also transcends the multiverse. Then there might be apparent human choices and real human choices, and the real human choices would be limited by constraints. The real choices would not correspond to alternate universes, because they are not physical choices - they are spiritual choices.

I guess the problem is fitting spirits into the multiverse. Is my soul shared by every version of me in every alternate universe? Can I go to heaven in one universe and hell in another universe? Humans according to Christianity have a body and a soul, and Jesus was also human.

Hope what I said makes sense to you. I'm having difficulty explaining it.

 

[Halbhh]

One issue is whether humans transcend their brains. When a human chooses is that "freewill" determined solely by the degrees of freedom of particles in their brains? If so, then I would say that all possible human choices would exist in the multiverse. ... On the other hand maybe there is some part of humans that transcends physics and also transcends the multiverse. Then there might be apparent human choices and real human choices, and the real human choices would be limited by constraints. The real choices would not correspond to alternate universes, because they are not physical choices - they are spiritual choices.

I guess the problem is fitting spirits into the multiverse. Is my soul shared by every version of me in every alternate universe? Can I go to heaven in one universe and hell in another universe? Humans according to Christianity have a body and a soul, and Jesus was also human.

Hope what I said makes sense to you. I'm having difficulty explaining it.

Well, understanding consciousness even just under the assumption (which I do not believe myself) of naturalism (which assumes consciousness would be purely/entirely just physical based, obeying the laws of ordinary physics/chemistry) -- even naturalistic consciousness has mystery. I've read a few articles a decade about trying to understand consciousness -- often confident worded articles, assured they've are about to pin it all down -- and somewhat like theories about dark matter, I've seen the theories come and then sorta fade away, replaced by others. You could look up in a minute some confident assertions from some individual researcher or writer, but it's good to be aware others in the field do not agree with them (!).

Here's one overview about trying to figure out how whether any of the competing ideas has merit:

To make headway on the mystery of consciousness, some researchers are trying a rigorous new way to test competing theories.
...
The question of what kinds of physical systems are conscious “is one of the deepest, most fascinating problems in all of science,” wrote the computer scientist Scott Aaronson of the University of Texas at Austin. “I don’t know of any philosophical reason why [it] should be inherently unsolvable” — but “humans seem nowhere close to solving it.”
Neuroscience Readies for a Showdown Over Consciousness Ideas | Quanta Magazine

I hope they make progress in that goal even to just understand more of the physical aspects, even just a partial progress, sure.

Meanwhile, I myself suspect (my hypothesis) that consciousness involves something truly non-physical, from spirit, but notice spirit is not all understood in all ways (and personally I'd not expect this to be during this mortal life). Note I don't want to accidentally assume individual spirit is even deterministic (predictable). So in my view there is possible indeterminism in both nature and spirit, not just one of the two, although it's speculative to assert a definite view.

About "all possible outcomes" sometimes it seems to me we may be getting part way there (significantly close, like 10% instead of a miniscule portion like 0.000001%) of all possible outcomes of human behavior, with our 7 billion. No basis to say any number, just that I think we have enough people so that even some obscure behaviors are well represented.

About multiverses -- since I personally don't think the Many Worlds Interpretation is among those that have a chance to be correct, therefore if multiverses exist, I expect them to be all unlike our own, and relatively few almost like ours, and my guess (speculative) is none would be close enough to result in even a possibility of ever getting in another something like our world and solar system, because even very tiny differences in physical constants have huge effects. So there could be another universe like ours therefore I think only if God chose so, but in just pure physics it seems very unlikely to me.

But the main thing I wanted to say was simply that if it turns out that spirit is involved in what we call consciousness, that would not lead me to expect there would be limitations on spirit. It's possible that either spirit or nature could be deterministic, and simply to have one of the two non-deterministic would be sufficient to account for free will, but I don't even assume only 1 of the 2 is non-deterministic.

 

[cloudyday2]

About multiverses -- since I personally don't think the Many Worlds Interpretation is among those that have a chance to be correct, therefore if multiverses exist, I expect them to be all unlike our own, and relatively few almost like ours, and my guess (speculative) is none would be close enough to result in even a possibility of ever getting in another something like our world and solar system, because even very tiny differences in physical constants have huge effects. So there could be another universe like ours therefore I think only if God chose so, but in just pure physics it seems very unlikely to me.

Hmmm, I'm surprised you would think that type of multiverse unlikely. Maybe what you imagine I am imagining for multiverses is not what I am actually imagining. When I took the introductory class in quantum mechanics about 30 years ago the probabilities bothered me. I remember one of the teaching assistants told us that "if quantum mechanics seems unintuitive then you just need to get a new intuition" (LOL). But it still bothered me. So the idea that every possibility happens has an appeal. There is no choice about how the probability wave collapses into an event, because it collapses in every possibly way. And then if you imagine that human decisions are driven by probability waves in our brains collapsing this way or that way there is obviously an alternate universe with me making every decision that I could possibly have made in each circumstance (along with far more bizarre universes and universes with unstable constants and all the rest). ... So I'm surprised that you don't find that idea sensible. Is that the "many worlds idea" or something else? Maybe it is the "cloudyday2 half-baked multiverse idea"?

You mentioned later in your post that you don't assume non-determinism in body or spirit. Isn't that a problem for Christian theology? I know there is the theology of predestination in Calvinism. I suppose that would fit with determinism. ... Just rambling some random thoughts I guess. Back to the drudgery of work...

 

[Halbhh]

Hmmm, I'm surprised you would think that type of multiverse unlikely. Maybe what you imagine I am imagining for multiverses is not what I am actually imagining. When I took the introductory class in quantum mechanics about 30 years ago the probabilities bothered me. I remember one of the teaching assistants told us that "if quantum mechanics seems unintuitive then you just need to get a new intuition" (LOL). But it still bothered me. So the idea that every possibility happens has an appeal. There is no choice about how the probability wave collapses into an event, because it collapses in every possibly way. And then if you imagine that human decisions are driven by probability waves in our brains collapsing this way or that way there is obviously an alternate universe with me making every decision that I could possibly have made in each circumstance (along with far more bizarre universes and universes with unstable constants and all the rest). ... So I'm surprised that you don't find that idea sensible. Is that the "many worlds idea" or something else? Maybe it is the "cloudyday2 half-baked multiverse idea"?

You mentioned later in your post that you don't assume non-determinism in body or spirit. Isn't that a problem for Christian theology? I know there is the theology of predestination in Calvinism. I suppose that would fit with determinism. ... Just rambling some random thoughts I guess. Back to the drudgery of work...

There are a variety of ideas trying to guess what's going on behind/past the simple Copenhagen Interpretation -- which famously Einstein sought to challenge and said QM of that day (with Copenhagen, which still reigns really) was in his view 'incomplete'. You could try to search up if the 'Many Worlds Interpretation' you like has any support, any kind of testable aspect that disagrees with other interpretations (is unique to Many Worlds) that's been tested, ever. I'm not aware; you could check for yourself. I'm aware of a to-me more interesting theory, Bohmian (the de Broglie idea) that was recently tested in a manner.

It was the theory that could have replaced Copenhagen, in my view (which is only the view of one person) -- the one I thought the interesting competition:
Famous Experiment Dooms Pilot-Wave Alternative to Quantum Weirdness | Quanta Magazine

Also, more generally, here's an excellent site I like where you could learn more rapidly about many fronts in QM:
Quanta Magazine

 

[Halbhh]

Hmmm, I'm surprised you would think that type of multiverse unlikely. Maybe what you imagine I am imagining for multiverses is not what I am actually imagining. When I took the introductory class in quantum mechanics about 30 years ago the probabilities bothered me. I remember one of the teaching assistants told us that "if quantum mechanics seems unintuitive then you just need to get a new intuition" (LOL). But it still bothered me. So the idea that every possibility happens has an appeal. There is no choice about how the probability wave collapses into an event, because it collapses in every possibly way. And then if you imagine that human decisions are driven by probability waves in our brains collapsing this way or that way there is obviously an alternate universe with me making every decision that I could possibly have made in each circumstance (along with far more bizarre universes and universes with unstable constants and all the rest). ... So I'm surprised that you don't find that idea sensible. Is that the "many worlds idea" or something else? Maybe it is the "cloudyday2 half-baked multiverse idea"?

You mentioned later in your post that you don't assume non-determinism in body or spirit. Isn't that a problem for Christian theology? I know there is the theology of predestination in Calvinism. I suppose that would fit with determinism. ... Just rambling some random thoughts I guess. Back to the drudgery of work...

Re Calvinism, you could read on it if you like, but I'm not Calvinist, but instead think the wording the gospel implies free will, and not determinism.

 

[cloudyday2]

Re Calvinism, you could read on it if you like, but I'm not Calvinist, but instead think the wording the gospel implies free will, and not determinism.

Sorry, I misread you last paragraph to say that you didn't think it was necessary for either body or spirit to be non-deterministic when you actually said that you thought at least one must be.

That brings the next issue: what is non-deterministic? With the body I suppose it would be to say that future states cannot be determined precisely from current states. But applying that definition to the soul or spirit doesn't work because those states are not easily measurable - maybe not measurable at all. Possibly a person can measure the spiritual states by watching their effect on physical states and trusting some higher knowledge. For example if you lived in 2-space and had higher knowledge that a 3-space sphere sometimes passes through your universe then you could watch for the growing and shrinking circle in 2-space and guess the state of the sphere in 3-space.

If humans have souls or higher selfs then they must have higher knowledge too. Humans might use that higher knowledge about the spiritual realm to measure the spiritual states through their effect on physical states.

 

[MehGuy]

I'll have to say, you contribute very unique content on this forum.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

So, the way I see it, Jesus is God, and God is Being itself. Therefore, Jesus would be unable to not be in accord with the will of God. So a multiverse where Jesus disobeyed God and sided against Him is impossible. A universe where God is sided against Himself, when God is the ground of being of said universe, is logically impossible.

 

[Halbhh]

Sorry, I misread you last paragraph to say that you didn't think it was necessary for either body or spirit to be non-deterministic when you actually said that you thought at least one must be.

That brings the next issue: what is non-deterministic? With the body I suppose it would be to say that future states cannot be determined precisely from current states. But applying that definition to the soul or spirit doesn't work because those states are not easily measurable - maybe not measurable at all. Possibly a person can measure the spiritual states by watching their effect on physical states and trusting some higher knowledge. For example if you lived in 2-space and had higher knowledge that a 3-space sphere sometimes passes through your universe then you could watch for the growing and shrinking circle in 2-space and guess the state of the sphere in 3-space.

If humans have souls or higher selfs then they must have higher knowledge too. Humans might use that higher knowledge about the spiritual realm to measure the spiritual states through their effect on physical states.

As I think of it, we can't even be sure that ideas like determinism/predictability even can be adequate to be possible aspects of spirit. It may or may not even be an attribute. A possibility is that the situation is some different thing instead we (or I) haven't considered. But in that case, it still could be practically a kind of outcome that some partial or total non-predictability results in our world -- for our own practical way of seeing things.

About 'higher knowledge' -- that's exactly why the scriptures, the bible, is relevant for any seeker of hidden things. It's meaningful because it has things learned from higher knowledge, which aren't things we can just merely grab (regardless of our intelligence/subtleness/intuition) on our own any day, see. I had originally set out to try to glean things from it. But it turns out I could not find any thing that didn't work (and amazingly well) in Christ's words when I tested everything I could in practical tests with actual outcomes. That made me eventually pray, and He answers prayers that are with real leaps of faith, and with real humility. Possibly part of why I had real humility was for me because I'd found thing after thing Christ said worked better than all alternatives, proving Him wiser than even the best other minds like Lao Tzu, Emerson, etc. I got it that I was dealing with someone far wiser than me, no matter all I'd read.