Christianity has nothing to offer you while you're alive

[zippy2006]

Perhaps. But trying to decide which branch of Christianity is more guilty...

Yes, well the Protestant in question seems to be saying, "Don't blame Christianity for child abuse, blame Catholicism. Protestantism has something to offer that isn't offset by abuse."

I think my school stats are off.

I think you need to start citing your sources. Your last two posts are filled with statistics but contain no source. Vaguely claiming that the statistics come from some Royal Commission isn't very helpful.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That's like saying, "Sign up for Trump University. There's no guarantee you'll get rich because of us, but you could just happen to get rich by other means."

If we pay attention to the nuances of what Jesus has been reported to have said through the Gospel writers, it seems to me that He, at the very least, has said that we'll "gain a new social and relational network" that will aid us [however variably it may do so] in the difficulties of our lives.

In fact, it's the expectation among the N.T. writers that the Church SHOULD "be," and without option, an ongoing social force for not only spiritual reconciliation with the Lord God through Christ but for providing within the world a collection of catalysts for social betterment.

And if we each think we are Christian but act as if we don't exist within this kind of new social network of beneficence, we may be at risk of eventually finding ourself being subject to Hell and/or Eternal Destruction. It seems faily clear to me that Jesus indicates at least this much to us, and if some so-called Christians are unrepentant, unreformed pedophiles (among a number of other things: e.g. playboys, racists, spouse-abusers, etc.) then ...................well...............Hell (!)

As for your Trump University analogy, and while I could be wrong since I'd have to dig into a fuller level of historical research, I don't think Trump University actually has provided much of anything like this on a larger scale for the world.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Yes, well the Protestant in question seems to be saying, "Don't blame Christianity for child abuse, blame Catholicism. Protestantism has something to offer that isn't offset by abuse."



I think you need to start citing your sources. Your last two posts are filled with statistics but contain no source. Vaguely claiming that the statistics come from some Royal Commission isn't very helpful.

I really don't want this to turn into a thread about Child sexual abuse, so I won't state anything futher on the topic. But for your reference here is the link to the Royal Commission's findings. Religious institutions | Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse

And for completeness, I will clarify the stats on schools. Which again may not be perfect but give a more complete picture, as Government Schools in Australia are generally not boarding schools, so comparing institutions that have boarding schools and are in close contact to children is not a good comparison of abuse numbers.

I am not sure I did my math’s correctly here, please correct if wrong. The following uses schools, to show instances of abuse. Taken from Schools | Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse

If we look at school stats (including boarding schools), we see:

Independent Schools 20% of cases 15% of population (1.3333 ratio) 30.8%
Public Schools 24% of cases 64% of population (0.375 ratio) 8.67%
Catholic Schools 55% of cases 21% of population (2.619) 60.52%


But let’s remove boarding schools and deal with a basic school.

Almost one in three (30.4 per cent) said they were abused in a boarding school setting, of which 96.8 per cent told us it was a non-government boarding school and 3.2 per cent identified a government boarding school. Of the non-government boarding schools, 57.0 per cent identified a Catholic school and 43.2 per cent identified an Independent school.

29.4272 – church boarding school

0.9728 – government boarding school

12.7125 – independent school

16.7146496 – catholic boarding school

If we look at a standard school (not including boarding schools), we see:

Independent Schools 7.29% of cases 15% of population (0.486 ratio) 18%
Public Schools 23% of cases 64% of population (0.359 ratio) 13%
Catholic Schools 38.28% of cases 21% of population (1.819 ratio) 68.2%


From these stats we see boarding schools accounts for a large increase in child sexual abuse in schools. When we remove boarding schools, we see:


Independent Schools (non-catholic) is slightly higher than public schools in abuse cases, but not by a large margin 18% of all cases, to the public sector or 13%.

Catholic Schools increase in abuse cases to 68% of all cases.

From a Christian perspective, higher abuse cases I would suggest is due the sexual pressure, that the devil puts on believers. It being worse in the Catholic Church (maybe due to celibacy).

 

[zippy2006]

I really don't want this to turn into a thread about Child sexual abuse, so I won't state anything futher on the topic. But for your reference here is the link to the Royal Commission's findings. Religious institutions | Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse

And for completeness, I will clarify the stats on schools. Which again may not be perfect but give a more complete picture, as Government Schools in Australia are generally not boarding schools, so comparing institutions that have boarding schools and are in close contact to children is not a good comparison of abuse numbers.

I am not sure I did my math’s correctly here, please correct if wrong. The following uses schools, to show instances of abuse. Taken from Schools | Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse

If we look at school stats (including boarding schools), we see:

Independent Schools 20% of cases 15% of population (1.3333 ratio) 30.8%
Public Schools 24% of cases 64% of population (0.375 ratio) 8.67%
Catholic Schools 55% of cases 21% of population (2.619) 60.52%


But let’s remove boarding schools and deal with a basic school.

Almost one in three (30.4 per cent) said they were abused in a boarding school setting, of which 96.8 per cent told us it was a non-government boarding school and 3.2 per cent identified a government boarding school. Of the non-government boarding schools, 57.0 per cent identified a Catholic school and 43.2 per cent identified an Independent school.

29.4272 – church boarding school

0.9728 – government boarding school

12.7125 – independent school

16.7146496 – catholic boarding school

If we look at a standard school (not including boarding schools), we see:

Independent Schools 7.29% of cases 15% of population (0.486 ratio) 18%
Public Schools 23% of cases 64% of population (0.359 ratio) 13%
Catholic Schools 38.28% of cases 21% of population (1.819 ratio) 68.2%


From these stats we see boarding schools accounts for a large increase in child sexual abuse in schools. When we remove boarding schools, we see:


Independent Schools (non-catholic) is slightly higher than public schools in abuse cases, but not by a large margin 18% of all cases, to the public sector or 13%.

Catholic Schools increase in abuse cases to 68% of all cases.

From a Christian perspective, higher abuse cases I would suggest is due the sexual pressure, that the devil puts on believers. It being worse in the Catholic Church (maybe due to celibacy).

Thanks for the sources. I think your math is a little sloppy, judging from your other posts in this thread, but that doesn't mean you're wrong. I am glad to have such information presented, and obviously you are doing so in good faith. Perhaps another thread could be started on this topic in a different forum.

Blessings,
Zip

 

[Nihilist Virus]

After researching local statistics for Australian Government sources I feel relatively confident that I can say that the protestant church (at least in Australia) is not any worse than the secular world when it comes to abuse.

The following data shows that the protestant church has percentage-wise the same number of abuse cases as the secular system.

That the catholic church is shown to be the factor in skewing data toward a picture of sexual abuse.


I stated previously that I felt that abuse numbers were higher in the Catholic church due to mandatory Celabicy, but made some statistical errors, due to miss reading an article. I have researched more thoroughly, local Australian Statistics to get a better picture. These statistics were taken from a Royal Commission or government-run investigation.

To compare the Anglican church in the last census accounted for 13.3% of the population and 14.7% of abuse cases. Yet the catholic portion of the population was 22.6% but accounted for 61.8% percent of cases. If the Catholic Church, was the same as that denomination (as an example) you would expect its abuse cases to be around 20% but it accounts for 60% of cases. The catholic church having an extra 40% on top of other organizations 2/3 higher in abuse cases. The denomination that I am a part of makes up 1% of the population, but accounts for only 37 cases, out of 4029 cases, or 0.91% approximately 1%. So we see a trend the abuse in protestant churches, that the percentage of the population they make up to that level they offend. Where the Catholic church offends at a far higher rate, suggesting that there is an issue in the way the church deals with sexuality and sexual abuse.

When we look at schools we see a similar trend:

Three-quarters (75.9 per cent) said they were abused in non-government schools, of which 73.8 per cent identified a Catholic school and 26.4 per cent identified an Independent school.


Also at government schools, the percentage of abuse was 24.1% close to the independent schools % as a total, independent religious schools accounting for 20% of all cases. So we see secular educators' abuse rates mirror the non-catholic religious portion. So Protestant denominations are no worse than secular people.

Edit: due to the following (my statement above is not true for schools):
-------------------
In 2016, 14 percent (3.37 million) of Australia's 23.40 million population were school students. Of these, 15 percent attended Independent schools, 21 percent went to Catholic schools and the remaining 64 percent were government school students.

I think my school stats are off.

Independent Schools 20% of cases 15% of population
Public Schools 24% of cases 64% of population
Catholic Schools 55% of cases 21% of population

Looking at cases ignores the Catholic argument: they have more cases because they keep better records than any other religion. No other single religion is organized and mobilized worldwide in a single, unified effort. They then contend that the number of pedophile priests is roughly proportional to the population at large.

Of course, this argument fails to account for the worldwide coverup of child rape and how the Vatican has practically declared war on the entire world by convincing citizens to commit treason (reporting high crimes to a foreign king and obstructing justice for their own country).

When cornered, Protestants tend to include Catholics among all Christians because Protestantism by itself is not even be close to being the largest religion on earth (and it is important to them that Christianity is).

None of this is Christianity helping humanity.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

From a Christian perspective, higher abuse cases I would suggest is due the sexual pressure, that the devil puts on believers. It being worse in the Catholic Church (maybe due to celibacy).

The devil could only tempt you with things you want. Normal people don't find children to be "tempting."

 

[Nihilist Virus]

If we pay attention to the nuances of what Jesus has been reported to have said through the Gospel writers, it seems to me that He, at the very least, has said that we'll "gain a new social and relational network" that will aid us [however variably it may do so] in the difficulties of our lives.

In fact, it's the expectation among the N.T. writers that the Church SHOULD "be," and without option, an ongoing social force for not only spiritual reconciliation with the Lord God through Christ but for providing within the world a collection of catalysts for social betterment.

And if we each think we are Christian but act as if we don't exist within this kind of new social network of beneficence, we may be at risk of eventually finding ourself being subject to Hell and/or Eternal Destruction. It seems faily clear to me that Jesus indicates at least this much to us, and if some so-called Christians are unrepentant, unreformed pedophiles (among a number of other things: e.g. playboys, racists, spouse-abusers, etc.) then ...................well...............Hell (!)

As for your Trump University analogy, and while I could be wrong since I'd have to dig into a fuller level of historical research, I don't think Trump University actually has provided much of anything like this on a larger scale for the world.

I'm not sure what your point is here.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Seems like a major derail of this thread.

In some ways it is, but it was the OP himself who raised the issue (first in post #25 and then in greater detail in subsequent posts). The topic sprouted when the OP claimed that the things Christianity has to offer don't overcome the negatives such as child abuse ("Morality and charity are offset by decades of child rape sanctioned by the Pope"). Thus the derail is intuitive and sanctioned by the OP.

Perhaps. But trying to decide which branch of Christianity is more guilty...

Right, it doesn't matter which branch of Christianity is most guilty. The site clearly establishes what is and isn't Christianity. Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons are excluded, presumably because they reject the idea that Christ is God. Protestants may not disown Catholics and claim they are in the same category as Mormons, and therefore they must own their actions.

 

[Hammster]

The promise of eternal life requires that you die.

No. Jesus said that He came to give life, and give it abundantly.

Materially, Christianity offers you absolutely nothing while you're alive.

If you mean that being a Christian offers nothing material, you may be correct in that we don’t suddenly have money in the bank. But I’m not sure why that’s a problem.

You are, however, pressured into offering time and money to Christianity.

Not at all. We get to give back to to our King that which isn’t ours to begin with. We get to praise the Creator of the universe. We get to honor our Father like it’s the greatest Father’s Day ever. We have access to the throne room of God Himself.

The benefits are pretty awesome.

So what does Christianity offer that is immaterial?

Christianity offers hope that things will be better once you die. I don't need Christianity for this.

Actually, you need Jesus for this.


“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
— John 3:16-21

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
— John 3:36

 

[Eloy Craft]

I think a reality right now in this time introduced by Christianity is a global conscience. Never happened before. Western societies are founded on the Law and order structured by the Christian conscience. Western culture is being adopted globally and so the Christian conscience is too. Unfortunately the world doesn't really want a conscience formed by Christ. The world wants it dead. Now that it is global it is being reformed in another image. This is a phenomenon of Christianity in the world. Salt of the earth to be spread world wide and then the end.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm not sure what your point is here.

In your attempt to interpret what it is you 'think' I've said in post #122, you're welcome to give it the ol' college try.

Surely-----at the very least-----you can do that!

 

[variant]

Therefore, Christianity offers nothing materially, and its immaterial offers come at a cost. Christianity restricts your freedoms and wastes your time and money. The little that it does offer can be found elsewhere.

Flatly untrue. The church I attended as a child had a very nice coffee and doughnut spread and a good place to strike up a friendly inoffensive conversation.

 

[Sketcher]

It provides me with much more than nothing in this life, but its main benefits are for eternity, rather than this life. If I didn't believe Christianity's teaching of an afterlife, I wouldn't follow hard after Jesus. But it doesn't mean that there are zero benefits to my faith in this life.

 

[com7fy8]

So what does Christianity offer that is immaterial?

Change in my character so I can love better than I have loved in a human way. And I can be submissive to God in His peace which has me sharing with Him, personally, while His peace almighty keeps my mind and emotions in kind and caring peace which is good for me emotionally and mentally and has me able to love any and all people.

I get the impression there are people who suppose they are good enough without Jesus. But Jesus is so better than we are. And God wants us to share with Jesus in how He is and is able to love better than any human can.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

It provides me with much more than nothing in this life, but its main benefits are for eternity, rather than this life. If I didn't believe Christianity's teaching of an afterlife, I wouldn't follow hard after Jesus. But it doesn't mean that there are zero benefits to my faith in this life.

You follow hard after Jesus? And you're prosperous? I must've been reading the wrong gospels.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Change in my character so I can love better than I have loved in a human way. And I can be submissive to God in His peace which has me sharing with Him, personally, while His peace almighty keeps my mind and emotions in kind and caring peace which is good for me emotionally and mentally and has me able to love any and all people.

I get the impression there are people who suppose they are good enough without Jesus. But Jesus is so better than we are. And God wants us to share with Jesus in how He is and is able to love better than any human can.

All of that is just as available in other religions. Sorry that I didn't include more of my platform in the title, but I did address this in the OP.

 

[Sketcher]

You follow hard after Jesus? And you're prosperous? I must've been reading the wrong gospels.

"Prosperous" is a relative term. And even Paul had times of plenty during his ministry. I am against the so-called prosperity gospel, so I'm not colored by a bias for that, either.

 

[com7fy8]

All of that is just as available in other religions.

Let me check what you are saying is just as available in other religions >

Change in my character so I can love better than I have loved in a human way.

Which religion can you quote saying God alone is able to change our character so we love the way He desires? Please put an actual clear quote here in a post.

One quote I can give you is Hebrews 12:4-14, with 1 John 4:17. God Himself changes the character of a person so he or she can love the way Jesus means. I do not know of any other religion which says this in simple and direct wording.

And I can be submissive to God in His peace which has me sharing with Him, personally,

I can not quote any non-Christian writing which clearly and in obvious wording says our Heavenly Father desires to personally share with each of His children, through His own Son Jesus, in His own peace. But I can give you various Bible verses which support this.

Proverbs 3:5-6

Colossians 3:15

Matthew 11:28-30

while His peace almighty keeps my mind and emotions in kind and caring peace which is good for me emotionally and mentally and has me able to love any and all people.

Only in the Bible do I find how God's peace is almighty and "will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (in Philippians 4:4-7)

And this is worth more than any material benefit.

Now, of course, there is a lot of Christian culture which says not a word about this, too. But the Bible does.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Let me check what you are saying is just as available in other religions >Which religion can you quote saying God alone is able to change our character so we love the way He desires? Please put an actual clear quote here in a post.

One quote I can give you is Hebrews 12:4-14, with 1 John 4:17. God Himself changes the character of a person so he or she can love the way Jesus means. I do not know of any other religion which says this in simple and direct wording.

The "how" is not relevant. I'm talking about the "what".

I can not quote any non-Christian writing which clearly and in obvious wording says our Heavenly Father desires to personally share with each of His children, through His own Son Jesus, in His own peace. But I can give you various Bible verses which support this.

Yes. Generally speaking, all religions say the same thing in different ways. The same "what" with different "how"s.

Proverbs 3:5-6

Colossians 3:15

Matthew 11:28-30

Only in the Bible do I find how God's peace is almighty and "will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (in Philippians 4:4-7)

And this is worth more than any material benefit.

Now, of course, there is a lot of Christian culture which says not a word about this, too. But the Bible does.

Let's see if we can find something material offered by Christianity which is available to you while you're alive which is unattainable through other religions.

 

[com7fy8]

Let's see if we can find something material offered by Christianity which is available to you while you're alive which is unattainable through other religions.

Well, in my opinion we who are Christian are not trying to get away from others, in this material world; so we can tend to have what others have, while reaching to and sharing with them in order to reach them for Jesus.

And there can be persecution which results in ones of us not having what the persecutors have.

The Bible says, "be content with such things as you have", in Hebrews 13:5. So, I understand God has us accepting whatever good we have, and share with people who are near us. How we can be loving is more important than the materials we have.

So, it's not how much we have, but how much we can do with it.

And our Apostle Paul says,

"I will not be brought under the power of any," in 1 Corinthians 6:12.

So, while we may have and enjoy material benefits . . . how well do we avoid being somehow "under the power" of things we have and are managing? How we are emotionally and in relating with people can have a material effect on our bodies, by the way. So, being able to stay in God's peace with almighty protection against stress and arguing, for examples, can have an effect on our material bodies and lifestyles.

Do we have almighty power of peace in us, so we easily can say no to smoking, for one practical example? This can have a material effect on our health and finances.

Now, yes, ones claim that all religions can give you peace so you can easily avoid harmful and wasteful things like smoking. But there is a difference between God's peace, and humanly self-produced calm and control.