Christianity has nothing to offer you while you're alive

[Matt5]

This appears to be rambling to me. I cannot make sense of what you're saying.

If a religion is a set of rules to live by, why wouldn't you pick the religion from the most successful region on the planet?

Why does it makes sense to cherry-pick rules from poor (failed) societies?

Answer: If you believe in equality, then the successful region must have cheated. It's religion would be the last one I want.

Most atheists fall into the equality group.

The main idea from my last post:

Trust and cooperation facilitate the building of material wealth. That's where Christianity comes in. The church of woke (equality) flips the script. Those who get ahead must have cheated and should be punished in some way (more taxes).

 

[FutureAndAHope]

What is your source?

7 Percent Of All Catholic Priests Were Alleged Sex Offenders: Royal Commission

 

[zippy2006]

So essentially 62% of offenders had taken a vow of chastity.

You are making the same error as Huffington Post when you confuse an allegation with a crime. The data is not about offenders, it is about those who have been accused.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The promise of eternal life requires that you die. Materially, Christianity offers you absolutely nothing while you're alive. You are, however, pressured into offering time and money to Christianity.

So what does Christianity offer that is immaterial?

Christianity offers hope that things will be better once you die. I don't need Christianity for this. There are many religions that offer the same thing, often with less strings attached.

Christianity offers philosophy. Jesus was a philosopher. However, Christians are compelled to accept as absolute truth everything that Jesus said. Even when Jesus suggested that we don't need to wash our hands before we eat. It has been well established that this is a bad idea. Therefore, it is best to pick and choose from the sayings of Jesus rather than accepting all of them. As an atheist, I pick and choose from religious philosophy all the time. Not only do I not need Christianity to do this, but as a Christian I wouldn't even have the freedom to pick and choose from the sayings of Jesus.

Therefore, Christianity offers nothing materially, and its immaterial offers come at a cost. Christianity restricts your freedoms and wastes your time and money. The little that it does offer can be found elsewhere.

Or......rather than assuming that the specific referent in Christianity you're spotting points to "nothing," might it be more accurate to say that Christianity offers no guarantee(s) for gaining the offerings that each of us thinks we'd like to have in this life?

Jesus didn't promise us a rose-garden in this life.....but this fact doesn't preclude that some Christian, one who is fully Christian, will get one though--even if only for a limited time.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

7 Percent Of All Catholic Priests Were Alleged Sex Offenders: Royal Commission

Ok thanks. One survey in Australia doesn't make your case. But even if I grant your argument entirely, it only serves as backing for the OP.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Or......rather than assuming that the specific referent in Christianity you're spotting points to "nothing," might it be more accurate to say that Christianity offers no guarantee(s) for gaining the offerings that each of us thinks we'd like to have in this life?

Jesus didn't promise us a rose-garden in this life.....but that doesn't preclude that some Christian, one who is fully Christian, will get one though--even if only for a limited time.

That's like saying, "Sign up for Trump University. There's no guarantee you'll get rich because of us, but you could just happen to get rich by other means."

 

[Hazelelponi]

The promise of eternal life requires that you die. Materially, Christianity offers you absolutely nothing while you're alive. You are, however, pressured into offering time and money to Christianity.

So what does Christianity offer that is immaterial?

Christianity offers hope that things will be better once you die. I don't need Christianity for this. There are many religions that offer the same thing, often with less strings attached.

Christianity offers philosophy. Jesus was a philosopher. However, Christians are compelled to accept as absolute truth everything that Jesus said. Even when Jesus suggested that we don't need to wash our hands before we eat. It has been well established that this is a bad idea. Therefore, it is best to pick and choose from the sayings of Jesus rather than accepting all of them. As an atheist, I pick and choose from religious philosophy all the time. Not only do I not need Christianity to do this, but as a Christian I wouldn't even have the freedom to pick and choose from the sayings of Jesus.

Therefore, Christianity offers nothing materially, and its immaterial offers come at a cost. Christianity restricts your freedoms and wastes your time and money. The little that it does offer can be found elsewhere.

You've missed out on the whole reconciliation with God portion of Scripture, which occurs right here, right now, as soon as your "saved."

THAT is everything, it is life itself...

 

[Par5]

I had a look at the stats, and it is not quite as clear cut. The numbers are not equal.

• 597 or 32 percent were religious brothers,
• 572 or 30 percent were priests,
• 543 or 29 percent were lay people,
• 96 or 5 percent were religious sisters,

ALthough the number of priests and laypeople is approximately equal. They are not taking into account religious brothers, who are said to:

Within the Roman Catholic Church, the titles sister and brother are given to members of religious communities. Members take vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience and devote their lives to God.

So essentially 62% of offenders had taken a vow of chastity.

There may be other issues at play, in terms of cover-ups etc like you said. But to me the issue of forced celibacy is a big one. Being forced to not have sex, would put a lot of pressure on people.

It is not forced celibacy. When they take religious orders they know that celibacy is part of the deal and they enter into that voluntarily.
Having said that, it is probably keeping celibate that causes the problems.
Insurance companies that provide cover for churches will tell you that they receive claims about child sex abuse in equal numbers in relation to the Catholic church and the many different Protestant churches.
At this moment in time, the Anglian church in the UK has come in for severe criticism for its failure to deal properly with sex abuse by its own clergy, who by the way are free to marry.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Insurance companies that provide cover for churches will tell you that they receive claims about child sex abuse in equal numbers in relation to the Catholic church and the many different Protestant churches.

What is your source for that comment my initial investigation shows the polar opposite.
See Does Catholic Church have bigger sex abuse problem than other religions?

The following was stated regarding US law suits:

By comparison, the nation’s Protestant churches have paid much less money to settle a much smaller number of lawsuits, according to a study last year by three criminologists, Andrew S. Denney, Kent R. Kerley and Nickolas G. Gross.

Lawsuits:

• $87.8 million to all the victims of all Protestant Curches. 2.74%
• $3.2 billion to Catholic Churches 97.25%

[edit: note this figure was bloated, as I miss read the data, the reality is a little less damning. 712 Catholic claims per year to 260 Protestant claims per year.

30% Protestant, to 70% catholic.]


As an example in New York

There were 105 Child Victims Act lawsuits against religious organizations in Western New York in the first two days those cases could be filed. But only two of them targeted religious organizations that are not Catholic.

1.9% other religions 98.1% Catholic

 

[Par5]

What is your source for that comment my initial investigation shows the polar opposite.
See Does Catholic Church have bigger sex abuse problem than other religions?

The following was stated regarding US law suits:

By comparison, the nation’s Protestant churches have paid much less money to settle a much smaller number of lawsuits, according to a study last year by three criminologists, Andrew S. Denney, Kent R. Kerley and Nickolas G. Gross.

Lawsuits:

• $87.8 million to all the victims of all Protestant Curches. 2.74%
• $3.2 billion to Catholic Churches 97.25%

As an example in New York

There were 105 Child Victims Act lawsuits against religious organizations in Western New York in the first two days those cases could be filed. But only two of them targeted religious organizations that are not Catholic.

1.9% other religions 98.1% Catholic

Is there more sexual abuse in the Protestant Churches than the Catholic Church?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

What is your source for that comment my initial investigation shows the polar opposite.
See Does Catholic Church have bigger sex abuse problem than other religions?

The following was stated regarding US law suits:

By comparison, the nation’s Protestant churches have paid much less money to settle a much smaller number of lawsuits, according to a study last year by three criminologists, Andrew S. Denney, Kent R. Kerley and Nickolas G. Gross.

Lawsuits:

• $87.8 million to all the victims of all Protestant Curches. 2.74%
• $3.2 billion to Catholic Churches 97.25%

As an example in New York

There were 105 Child Victims Act lawsuits against religious organizations in Western New York in the first two days those cases could be filed. But only two of them targeted religious organizations that are not Catholic.

1.9% other religions 98.1% Catholic

My figures here were bloated, as i miss read the data:

The reality is a little less damning. 712 Catholic claims per year to 260 Protestant claims per year.

30% Protestant, to 70% catholic.

51.3 of the population is Protestant, and 23.9 of the population identifying as Catholic.


An average of 712 claims of sexual abuse of children were made annually against Catholic priests during the years 1990-2002, according to a 2006 study by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.


By comparison, the nation’s Protestant churches have paid much less money to settle a much smaller number of lawsuits, according to a study last year by three criminologists, Andrew S. Denney, Kent R. Kerley and Nickolas G. Gross.

The study by the three criminologists said insurance companies that provide coverage for 165,500 churches and religious organizations, most of them Protestant, reported 7,095 claims of alleged sexual abuse by clergy, church staff, congregation members or volunteers between 1987 and 2007. That is an average of 260 sexual abuse claims annually, resulting in payments totaling $87.8 million to all the victims.

In Australia it was reported in the Royal Commission into Child Abuse:

“The Catholic Church represents over 60% of all reported abuses to the recent Royal Commission.

Lawyer representing child sexual abuse victims welcomes Catholic Church participation in National Redress Scheme - Maddens Lawyers

61.8% - Royal Comission - Religious institutions | Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Is there more sexual abuse in the Protestant Churches than the Catholic Church?

We would have to look at these figures in more detail to know. The article you quoted states:

These three companies, in 2007, said they receive about 260 reports of sexual abuse per year from Protestant churches, and about 228 from Catholic churches.

Yet the news article state that those insurance bodies, yes had 260 cases in total, but that most of the churches they insured were Protostant, so taking 228 means little if they did not insure many catholic churches. The Catholics own reporting body stated there were 712 not 228 cases of abuse.

If the following is true nationwide, then there is a definite issue.

There were 105 Child Victims Act lawsuits against religious organizations in Western New York in the first two days those cases could be filed. But only two of them targeted religious organizations that are not Catholic.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Sexual predators often look for fields of opportunity when choosing their professions. So, occupations of trust like councilors, teachers, ministers Pastors and Priests offer that field. In the case of the Catholic Church the trust given to Priests was easily weaponized and used by it's enemies.

 

[coffee4u]

The promise of eternal life requires that you die. Materially, Christianity offers you absolutely nothing while you're alive. You are, however, pressured into offering time and money to Christianity.

So what does Christianity offer that is immaterial?

Joy, peace, love and hope.

God's hand guiding my life. The older I get the more I see where he does.

I have been very blessed.

 

[Par5]

We would have to look at these figures in more detail to know. The article you quoted states:

These three companies, in 2007, said they receive about 260 reports of sexual abuse per year from Protestant churches, and about 228 from Catholic churches.

Yet the news article state that those insurance bodies, yes had 260 cases in total, but that most of the churches they insured were Protostant, so taking 228 means little if they did not insure many catholic churches. The Catholics own reporting body stated there were 712 not 228 cases of abuse.

If the following is true nationwide, then there is a definite issue.

There were 105 Child Victims Act lawsuits against religious organizations in Western New York in the first two days those cases could be filed. But only two of them targeted religious organizations that are not Catholic.

You seem to be more concerned to try and show that Protestant churches have fewer child abusers than the Catholic church. All religious organizations have been shown to have child abusers in their ranks and they need to be held to account for their very obvious mishandling in dealing with such abuse.
But it is not just the churches. Child abuse in its many forms happens in all walks of life, and sadly that includes the home, the very place a child should feel most secure, so it is something that concerns us all.
We all share the responsibility to keep children safe from abusers, not just the churches.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You seem to be more concerned to try and show that Protestant churches have fewer child abusers than the Catholic church. All religious organizations have been shown to have child abusers in their ranks and they need to be held to account for their very obvious mishandling in dealing with such abuse.
But it is not just the churches. Child abuse in its many forms happens in all walks of life, and sadly that includes the home, the very place a child should feel most secure, so it is something that concerns us all.
We all share the responsibility to keep children safe from abusers, not just the churches.

You are right, I am trying to show the Catholic Church has more cases of abuse. The reason is to support my theory that Celibacy is one of the driving forces behind sexual abuse. Here in Australia, we had a Royal Commission into sexual abuse, they covered many topics and bought forward statistical data for many years.

To compare the Anglican church in the last census accounted for 13.3% of the population and 14.7% of abuse cases. Yet the catholic portion of the population was 22.6% but accounted for 61.8% percent of cases. If the Catholic Church, was the same as that denomination (as an example) you would expect its abuse cases to be around 20% but it accounts for 60% of cases. The catholic church having an extra 40% on top of other organizations 2/3 higher in abuse cases. The denomination that I am a part of makes up 1% of the population, but accounts for only 37 cases, out of 4029 cases, or 0.91% approximately 1%. So we see a trend the abuse in protestant churches, that the percentage of the population they make up to that level they offend. Where the Catholic church offends at a far higher rate, suggesting that there is an issue in the way the church deals with sexuality and sexual abuse.

When we look at schools we see a similar trend:

Three-quarters (75.9 per cent) said they were abused in non-government schools, of which 73.8 per cent identified a Catholic school and 26.4 per cent identified an Independent school

Also at government schools, the percentage of abuse was 24.1% close to the independent schools % as a total. So we see secular educators' abuse rates mirror the non-catholic religious portion. So Protestant denominations are no worse than secular people.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Other religions offer the same thing. Why should I choose the one that is notorious for raping children?

After researching local statistics for Australian Government sources I feel relatively confident that I can say that the protestant church (at least in Australia) is not any worse than the secular world when it comes to abuse.

The following data shows that the protestant church has percentage-wise the same number of abuse cases as the secular system.

That the catholic church is shown to be the factor in skewing data toward a picture of sexual abuse.


I stated previously that I felt that abuse numbers were higher in the Catholic church due to mandatory Celabicy, but made some statistical errors, due to miss reading an article. I have researched more thoroughly, local Australian Statistics to get a better picture. These statistics were taken from a Royal Commission or government-run investigation.

To compare the Anglican church in the last census accounted for 13.3% of the population and 14.7% of abuse cases. Yet the catholic portion of the population was 22.6% but accounted for 61.8% percent of cases. If the Catholic Church, was the same as that denomination (as an example) you would expect its abuse cases to be around 20% but it accounts for 60% of cases. The catholic church having an extra 40% on top of other organizations 2/3 higher in abuse cases. The denomination that I am a part of makes up 1% of the population, but accounts for only 37 cases, out of 4029 cases, or 0.91% approximately 1%. So we see a trend the abuse in protestant churches, that the percentage of the population they make up to that level they offend. Where the Catholic church offends at a far higher rate, suggesting that there is an issue in the way the church deals with sexuality and sexual abuse.

When we look at schools we see a similar trend:

Three-quarters (75.9 per cent) said they were abused in non-government schools, of which 73.8 per cent identified a Catholic school and 26.4 per cent identified an Independent school.


Also at government schools, the percentage of abuse was 24.1% close to the independent schools % as a total, independent religious schools accounting for 20% of all cases. So we see secular educators' abuse rates mirror the non-catholic religious portion. So Protestant denominations are no worse than secular people.

Edit: due to the following (my statement above is not true for schools):
-------------------
In 2016, 14 percent (3.37 million) of Australia's 23.40 million population were school students. Of these, 15 percent attended Independent schools, 21 percent went to Catholic schools and the remaining 64 percent were government school students.

I think my school stats are off.

Independent Schools 20% of cases 15% of population
Public Schools 24% of cases 64% of population
Catholic Schools 55% of cases 21% of population

 

[Tinker Grey]

You are right, I am trying to show the Catholic Church has more cases of abuse.

Seems like a major derail of this thread.

 

[zippy2006]

Seems like a major derail of this thread.

In some ways it is, but it was the OP himself who raised the issue (first in post #25 and then in greater detail in subsequent posts). The topic sprouted when the OP claimed that the things Christianity has to offer don't overcome the negatives such as child abuse ("Morality and charity are offset by decades of child rape sanctioned by the Pope"). Thus the derail is intuitive and sanctioned by the OP.

 

[Tinker Grey]

In some ways it is, but it was the OP himself who raised the issue (first in post #25 and then in greater detail in subsequent posts). The topic sprouted when the OP claimed that the things Christianity has to offer don't overcome the negatives such as child abuse ("Morality and charity are offset by decades of child rape sanctioned by the Pope"). Thus the derail is intuitive and sanctioned by the OP.

Perhaps. But trying to decide which branch of Christianity is more guilty...