Christianity, Faith, and Evolution

BeyondET

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maybe humans are from sheepshead fish,
a man caught one off the OF coast Nagshead N.C last week. they have human like teeth haha..
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The Barbarian

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Actually, we are not descended from Neanderthals, although the humans from which we descended, did sometimes interbreed with Neanderthals. We represent two different subspecies of H. sapiens, with a common archaic human ancestor.

Mammoths did not give rise to either species of today's elephants.

Well there are plenty of biologist who would disagree but whatever lol

I don't know of one. Do you have one in mind?

Neanderthals were humans.

I was hoping you would answer my question. Name me a biologist who disagrees.
 
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stevevw

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Why can the big bang not be god starting the universe. I believe in god, the universe is to complex to not have a designers and the math agrees with me on that. The mathematical odds of everything coming about by chance are so astronomically so high that its considered impossible. Of course atheist would disagree but I personally think the reason they hate the idea of god so much is god is not something that you can control. I have seen unquestionable evidence of evolution. Skeletons of humans and animals over the last 100,000 years shows those differences. The fossil record shows prove. Geology has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the earth is about 4 billion years old. Astronomy has proven the universe is about 13/14 billion years old...they know this by measuring the distance light travels. The Andromeda Galaxy is about 2.5 millions lightyears away from us, that means if we were traveling at the speed of light we would still be traveling 2.5 million years. It also means what we see through the telescope is something from 2.5 million years ago your literally looking at the past. The farthest Galaxy is 13.4 billion light-years. That means it took 13.4 billion years roughly before the light of that galaxy reached us. That means we are seeing something from 13 billion years ago. It means the bible and its the universe is 7/8000 years old is incorrect. It means the bible was written by ignorant men who were telling there story of the world from there very limited knowledge of the universe. When we move into the New Testament most historians even atheist think Jesus existed...his divinity is a matter of faith not fact. I chose to believe in god because science says it is the most likely possibility, God, Aliens, something created the universe there is know doubt for me. I believe in god because I talk with him and I think he answers in his own way. I do not think Christ is a crutch. The majority of people are born with the ability to chose there own destiny. People blame god or the devil for there problems. I blame know one for my problems but me. If you really look at most of the stuff in your life there is good and bad, and most of it not all but the majority is on you and your decisions. As for god...it is a matter of faith.
I have discovered that science though a great and successful method at what it does is only one way to see things. It is really a human constructed methodology based on the assumption that everything has a naturalistic cause (physical/material cause). It counts out anything beyond the naturalistic view). So it counts out supernaturalism (God). God as a cause has no chance of being a possibility under science.

But if we are truly neutral about being open to all possibilities of what is behind so called reality/nature then God and supernatural ideas should be included as possibilities. Then when we begin to look at what we are finding when we look at so called reality we begin to see that even the scientific evidence is saying that there is something beyond the material world. Sciences own method finds counter intuitive phenomena going on which it cannot explain. It then reverts to coming up with its own counter intuitive ideas about reality.

Its important to realize that science is really revealing Gods creation in more detail because it always appears as you say mathematical, intelligently constructed and with purpose. God can also use laws and these methods within the way his creation works. In that way it doesnt matter so much is evolution is true because that doesnt discount there being a creative force behind things.

But here’s another revelation. I believe that we all know there is something (creative) behind what we see anyway. It comes back to being open to believe beyond that analytic and calculating mind to a basic intuitive truth. Its not just scientific evdience but evdience within. Even science tells us that the observer has a special place in how we see things and that goes beyond objective evdience.

But for whatever reason perhaps pride some people find other ways to rationalize things and make Gods creation itself the creating force of what we see rather than God.

Romans 1:19-23
Because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
 
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hedrick

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Actually, we are not descended from Neanderthals, although the humans from which we descended, did sometimes interbreed with Neanderthals. We represent two different subspecies of H. sapiens, with a common archaic human ancestor.
I’ve seen statements like this a lot. But if they interbreeded, then many of us have Neaderthals in our ancestry, and thus are descended from them.
 
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The Barbarian

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’ve seen statements like this a lot. But if they interbreeded, then many of us have Neaderthals in our ancestry, and thus are descended from them.

Well, that's true. Our genetics are almost entirely those of anatomically modern humans. But aside from people of purely African descent, the rest of us have genes showing interbreeding between humans of our subspecies and, Neanderthals, Denisovans, and/or at least one other yet-unidentified subspecies.

In that sense, most humans today have some ancestry from other human subspecies.
 
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The Barbarian

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I have discovered that science though a great and successful method at what it does is only one way to see things. It is really a human constructed methodology based on the assumption that everything has a naturalistic cause (physical/material cause). It counts out anything beyond the naturalistic view).

No. Science is methodologically naturalistic, not ontologically naturalistic. So while it's confined by its methodology to the natural world, it does not and cannot count out the supernatural.

This is why so many scientists are theists. There's no conflict between science and faith and never has been.

Its important to realize that science is really revealing Gods creation in more detail because it always appears as you say mathematical, intelligently constructed and with purpose. God can also use laws and these methods within the way his creation works. In that way it doesnt matter so much is evolution is true because that doesnt discount there being a creative force behind things.

This is true. Evolution is just one way God does things in this world. He uses nature for most things He does here. Why wouldn't he? It's what He made it for.
 
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Paradox.79

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I have discovered that science though a great and successful method at what it does is only one way to see things. It is really a human constructed methodology based on the assumption that everything has a naturalistic cause (physical/material cause). It counts out anything beyond the naturalistic view). So it counts out supernaturalism (God). God as a cause has no chance of being a possibility under science.

But if we are truly neutral about being open to all possibilities of what is behind so called reality/nature then God and supernatural ideas should be included as possibilities. Then when we begin to look at what we are finding when we look at so called reality we begin to see that even the scientific evidence is saying that there is something beyond the material world. Sciences own method finds counter intuitive phenomena going on which it cannot explain. It then reverts to coming up with its own counter intuitive ideas about reality.

Its important to realize that science is really revealing Gods creation in more detail because it always appears as you say mathematical, intelligently constructed and with purpose. God can also use laws and these methods within the way his creation works. In that way it doesnt matter so much is evolution is true because that doesnt discount there being a creative force behind things.

But here’s another revelation. I believe that we all know there is something (creative) behind what we see anyway. It comes back to being open to believe beyond that analytic and calculating mind to a basic intuitive truth. Its not just scientific evdience but evdience within. Even science tells us that the observer has a special place in how we see things and that goes beyond objective evdience.

But for whatever reason perhaps pride some people find other ways to rationalize things and make Gods creation itself the creating force of what we see rather than God.

Romans 1:19-23
Because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Not sure what you were saying but I think I got the gist. I am not saying god does not exist. That a higher form of life created the universe be it aliens God or Buddha for that matter is not in questions. The mathematical odds of the universe coming about by chance are so astronomically high that it would be called impossible. One strand of human Dna could reach the moon if you stretched it out, Just looking at earth tells me there is some form of creation. Every religion and culture has a creation story. They all started to be told about 5-6 thousand years ago. The people who told these stories, the ancient Egyptians, Israelites, Chinese, Sumerians, and dozens more. All of these people told there creation story with no true concept of geology, biology, astronomy. These people all of them thought the earth was flat, diseases were caused by evil spirits, natural disasters were God or gods showing anger. As far as the bible goes the universe is under 10k years old. Here is the problem with that, the andromeda galaxy is 2.5 million light years away from us. That means when we see it in the telescope were actually seeing into the past. It took 2.5 million years for the light from that galaxy to reach us. That right there proves every single creation story was just that a story. You can prove the universe is expanding, that is how they came to the conclusion of the big bang. Evolution can be proven its math 10 x 10 will always equal 100, I am very much aware the many Christians have a problem with it. What if god created the universe with a explosion. What if he created life on this planet with evolution. I actually believe that I consider the old testament part myth and parable and instruction on having a relationship which god. I believe much of new testament is true I believe in Christ. I also know that the new testament was written 40 years after Christs death. I know that the council of Nicea wrote the bible that we know today and was finally translated in the King James Bible. I know books were edited and removed. The lessons in the bible are important but I can look at it from a logical standpoint and say that fisherman and shepherds from 5000 years ago new absolutly nothing about science, geology, astronomy, biology. I swear if there was line in the bible that said 2+2 is 5, Christians the world over would fight over that statement. I also believe some of the bible is historical fact, there is circumstantial evidence that the red sea crossing happened. The chariots have long since disintegrated but the coral grew over those chariots and wheels and we coral shaped like chariot pieces. I believe there is room for the big bang, evolution, and god. You just have to be able to separate the myths from the facts.
 
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stevevw

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No. Science is methodologically naturalistic, not ontologically naturalistic. So while it's confined by its methodology to the natural world, it does not and cannot count out the supernatural.
Yet science has a prior assumption that only physical stuff exists which counts out the supernatural. This takes science beyond method and into metaphysics.

It’s because of those assumptions that science restricts its methods to only finding and allowing certain types of causes which are physical/material such as matter, particles etc and that the supernatural doesnt exist or cannot be included.

There are a wide range of ontological, epistemic, and ethical presuppositions weaved into any given scientific paradigm (for some examples of this, see Sect. 4b).
Science and Philosophy: A Love–Hate Relationship - Foundations of Science

6Methodological naturalism is an epistemological principle that governs how science is practiced. The naturalistic view is espoused by science as its fundamental assumption.
Methodological naturalism is an epistemological principle that governs how science is practiced. It prohibits the use of supernatural explanations in science.
“Science acts as if the supernatural did not exist.”17
Usually this view amounts to a kind of materialism and therefore it denies the existence of non-material beings such as God.

Naturalism and Science - Metanexus

Therefore as this paper states its but a short step to make claims about how science measures nature/reality to what nature/reality is.

At first glance, this would seem to be adequate since it gives the scope of science and meets the other goals set for naturalism. But science does seek to tell us something about reality; and metaphysics, defined as thought or explanation about reality in the deepest sense, is not easily marginalized. In fact science does sometimes deliver new reality to us: we now know about elementary particles, genes, quasars, black holes, and dark matter because of science.

Partly because of this, it is but a short step from claiming that science must be based on naturalism or naturalistic statements, to saying that only naturalistic phenomena exist. So if science cannot explain or describe something, it does not exist. This is metaphysical naturalism, because it draws conclusions about reality, about what exists. Metaphysical naturalism goes far beyond methodological naturalism and states that only “natural” things exist. (As does ontological naturalism my emphasis).

As usually interpreted, it states in effect that the “supernatural” does not exist, and that all explanations of phenomena can be made by means of explanations that fall under the category of methodological naturalism.

This metaphysical assertion cannot be a result of science; it is a distinctly philosophical position which must be justified on non-scientific grounds. It is, in fact, a radical form of reductionism; the doctrine that all phenomena and the underlying reality can be reduced to whatever it is that particle physics studies.

Unfortunately metaphysical naturalism is often proffered as a scientific conclusion or an inference from science, without explicit acknowledgment of its philosophical—not scientific—status and pedigree.

It is a philosophical task—one which is often carried out by physicists—to clarify the concepts of space, time, matter, energy, information, causality, etc. that figure in a given theory. This analysis makes explicit the implicit assumptions in the uses of these concepts: assumptions that scientific theories do not themselves normally state. Hence it moves beyond the point where the concepts appear as irreducible elements in the postulates of a theory.

Science and Philosophy: A Love–Hate Relationship - Foundations of Science

By restricting its methodology to only physical stuff the supernatural will never have a chance to be discovered because even indirect effects of the supernatural will be deemed to be caused by the physical.

Even if supernaturalism is real it will be given a different physical cause even if that physical cause is not supported at that time. It wil be a case that there has to be some physical cause but we just don't know it yet. Or that a new physical cause will be introduced even if that is not verified just to fit with the materialistic view.

The example if prayer claimed a miracle there will be some naturalistic explanation and considering that science has a great track record people will tend to side with the naturalistic cause even if there is no support for it. Dark matter and energy also comes to mind. Though it has never been verified directly it is still a well-accepted idea to account for and align with the current physical theories already in place.

This is why so many scientists are theists. There's no conflict between science and faith and never has been.
The problem is as mentioned above is the inherent assumption that everything is caused by the physical. This attaches an ontological position to mainstream science.

Theistic scientists may believe that what we see is Gods handy work and that science is just measuring that. But secular scientists take another ontological position. It is because science is practiced, accepted and proved successful under a secular view that we have seen it being used to claim what nature and reality is. That there are only physical effects and causes and there is no supernatural.

That’s why when we hear of anyone trying to claim that there are supernatural or even non-physical ideas like consciousness that mainstream science calls this WOO and will deny any papers along these lines within mainstream science i.e.

“[These] well-meaning defenders of Enlightenment-style rationalism ... clearly regard themselves, and current mainstream science itself, as reliably marshalling the intellectual virtues of reason and objectivity against retreating forces of irrational authority and superstition. For them the truth of the [physicalist view] has been demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt, and to think anything different is necessarily to abandon centuries of scientific progress, release the black flood of occultism, and revert to primitive supernaturalist beliefs characteristic of bygone times.”[17]
Consciousness: Why Materialism Fails - Campaign for Open Science

Kuhn also claims that all science is based on an approved agenda of unprovable assumptions about the character of the universe, rather than merely on empirical facts. These assumptions—a paradigm—comprise a collection of beliefs, values and techniques that are held by a given scientific community, which legitimize their systems and set the limitations to their investigation.[33] For naturalists, nature is the only reality, the "correct" paradigm, and there is no such thing as supernatural, i.e. anything above, beyond, or outside of nature. The scientific method is to be used to investigate all reality, including the human spirit.[34]
Naturalism (philosophy) - Wikipedia

This is true. Evolution is just one way God does things in this world. He uses nature for most things He does here. Why wouldn't he? It's what He made it for.
Yes I agree but when it comes to a world view science is being used as a vehicle to promote the idea that nature is physical and the causes of those physical effects are also within the physical parameters. In other words no Gods allowed. This was highlighted by the Copernicus and Darwinian revolutions that took God out of the picture as to what created nature and life.
Darwin's greatest contribution to science is that he completed the Copernican Revolution by drawing out for biology the notion of nature as a system of matter in motion governed by natural laws. With Darwin's discovery of natural selection, the origin and adaptations of organisms were brought into the realm of science. The adaptive features of organisms could now be explained, like the phenomena of the inanimate world, as the result of natural processes, without recourse to an Intelligent Designer. The Copernican and the Darwinian Revolutions may be seen as the two stages of the one Scientific Revolution. They jointly ushered in the beginning of science in the modern sense of the word: explanation through natural laws.
Darwin's greatest discovery: Design without designer
 
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The Barbarian

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No. Science is methodologically naturalistic, not ontologically naturalistic. So while it's confined by its methodology to the natural world, it does not and cannot count out the supernatural.

Yet science has a prior assumption that only physical stuff exists

Creationists assume that plumbing and science say that only natural stuff exists and thereby assume that scientists and plumbers have to be ontological naturalists.

It’s because of those assumptions that creationism cannot get a grasp of the fact that scientists and plumbers can do science and plumbing, but still be theists. For those who accept those assumptions, we get odd beliefs like:

Yes I agree but when it comes to a world view science is being used as a vehicle to promote the idea that nature is physical and the causes of those physical effects are also within the physical parameters. In other words no Gods allowed. This was highlighted by the Copernicus and Darwinian revolutions that took God out of the picture as to what created nature and life.

Which is simply refuted by Darwin:
There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.
Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species, 1873
 
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