Christianity, Faith, and Evolution

[Paradox.79]

Why can the big bang not be god starting the universe. I believe in god, the universe is to complex to not have a designers and the math agrees with me on that. The mathematical odds of everything coming about by chance are so astronomically so high that its considered impossible. Of course atheist would disagree but I personally think the reason they hate the idea of god so much is god is not something that you can control. I have seen unquestionable evidence of evolution. Skeletons of humans and animals over the last 100,000 years shows those differences. The fossil record shows prove. Geology has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the earth is about 4 billion years old. Astronomy has proven the universe is about 13/14 billion years old...they know this by measuring the distance light travels. The Andromeda Galaxy is about 2.5 millions lightyears away from us, that means if we were traveling at the speed of light we would still be traveling 2.5 million years. It also means what we see through the telescope is something from 2.5 million years ago your literally looking at the past. The farthest Galaxy is 13.4 billion light-years. That means it took 13.4 billion years roughly before the light of that galaxy reached us. That means we are seeing something from 13 billion years ago. It means the bible and its the universe is 7/8000 years old is incorrect. It means the bible was written by ignorant men who were telling there story of the world from there very limited knowledge of the universe. When we move into the New Testament most historians even atheist think Jesus existed...his divinity is a matter of faith not fact. I chose to believe in god because science says it is the most likely possibility, God, Aliens, something created the universe there is know doubt for me. I believe in god because I talk with him and I think he answers in his own way. I do not think Christ is a crutch. The majority of people are born with the ability to chose there own destiny. People blame god or the devil for there problems. I blame know one for my problems but me. If you really look at most of the stuff in your life there is good and bad, and most of it not all but the majority is on you and your decisions. As for god...it is a matter of faith.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Why can the big bang not be god starting the universe. I believe in god, the universe is to complex to not have a designers and the math agrees with me on that. The mathematical odds of everything coming about by chance are so astronomically so high that its considered impossible. Of course atheist would disagree but I personally think the reason they hate the idea of god so much is god is not something that you can control. I have seen unquestionable evidence of evolution. Skeletons of humans and animals over the last 100,000 years shows those differences. The fossil record shows prove. Geology has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the earth is about 4 billion years old. Astronomy has proven the universe is about 13/14 billion years old...they know this by measuring the distance light travels. The Andromeda Galaxy is about 2.5 millions lightyears away from us, that means if we were traveling at the speed of light we would still be traveling 2.5 million years. It also means what we see through the telescope is something from 2.5 million years ago your literally looking at the past. The farthest Galaxy is 13.4 billion light-years. That means it took 13.4 billion years roughly before the light of that galaxy reached us. That means we are seeing something from 13 billion years ago. It means the bible and its the universe is 7/8000 years old is incorrect. It means the bible was written by ignorant men who were telling there story of the world from there very limited knowledge of the universe. When we move into the New Testament most historians even atheist think Jesus existed...his divinity is a matter of faith not fact. I chose to believe in god because science says it is the most likely possibility, God, Aliens, something created the universe there is know doubt for me. I believe in god because I talk with him and I think he answers in his own way. I do not think Christ is a crutch. The majority of people are born with the ability to chose there own destiny. People blame god or the devil for there problems. I blame know one for my problems but me. If you really look at most of the stuff in your life there is good and bad, and most of it not all but the majority is on you and your decisions. As for god...it is a matter of faith.

Welcome to CF! Jesus Christ of Nazareth did say knowlege will grow over time.

 

[HTacianas]

Why can the big bang not be god starting the universe. I believe in god, the universe is to complex to not have a designers and the math agrees with me on that. The mathematical odds of everything coming about by chance are so astronomically so high that its considered impossible. Of course atheist would disagree but I personally think the reason they hate the idea of god so much is god is not something that you can control. I have seen unquestionable evidence of evolution. Skeletons of humans and animals over the last 100,000 years shows those differences. The fossil record shows prove. Geology has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the earth is about 4 billion years old. Astronomy has proven the universe is about 13/14 billion years old...they know this by measuring the distance light travels. The Andromeda Galaxy is about 2.5 millions lightyears away from us, that means if we were traveling at the speed of light we would still be traveling 2.5 million years. It also means what we see through the telescope is something from 2.5 million years ago your literally looking at the past. The farthest Galaxy is 13.4 billion light-years. That means it took 13.4 billion years roughly before the light of that galaxy reached us. That means we are seeing something from 13 billion years ago. It means the bible and its the universe is 7/8000 years old is incorrect. It means the bible was written by ignorant men who were telling there story of the world from there very limited knowledge of the universe. When we move into the New Testament most historians even atheist think Jesus existed...his divinity is a matter of faith not fact. I chose to believe in god because science says it is the most likely possibility, God, Aliens, something created the universe there is know doubt for me. I believe in god because I talk with him and I think he answers in his own way. I do not think Christ is a crutch. The majority of people are born with the ability to chose there own destiny. People blame god or the devil for there problems. I blame know one for my problems but me. If you really look at most of the stuff in your life there is good and bad, and most of it not all but the majority is on you and your decisions. As for god...it is a matter of faith.

The controversy comes from what was called "the Scopes Monkey Trial". Or at the very least, that played a very large part in it. It was protestant fundamentalism pitted against science in a "winner-take-all fight to the death". But in the end it is meaningless. For one, the "fundamentals", at least as espoused by Fundamentalists, have never been a part of Christianity, are only a very recent idea, and were formulated by men who do not have the authority to speak for Christianity.

There has never been a defined teaching on the age of the Earth, the manner in which God created man, nor the process in which the modern world came into being. It's something that has been kicked around within Christianity since the beginning. Some of the early Fathers of the Church taught a literal six day creation, some commentators -primarily Origen- used the internal text of Genesis to prove that it was not six literal days, and some said that God created the Earth in its present form instantaneously. You are free to choose whatever version of creation you want. Anyone telling you anything is else is claiming to know everything. No one knows everything so keep that in mind.

I'll give you a piece of advice. Insisting on one version or another of creation is extremely dangerous.

 

[The Barbarian]

There has never been a defined teaching on the age of the Earth, the manner in which God created man, nor the process in which the modern world came into being. It's something that has been kicked around within Christianity since the beginning. Some of the early Fathers of the Church taught a literal six day creation, some commentators -primarily Origen- used the internal text of Genesis to prove that it was not six literal days, and some said that God created the Earth in its present form instantaneously. You are free to choose whatever version of creation you want. Anyone telling you anything is else is claiming to know everything. No one knows everything so keep that in mind.

I'll give you a piece of advice. Insisting on one version or another of creation is extremely dangerous.

Precisely right.

 

[Paradox.79]

The controversy comes from what was called "the Scopes Monkey Trial". Or at the very least, that played a very large part in it. It was protestant fundamentalism pitted against science in a "winner-take-all fight to the death". But in the end it is meaningless. For one, the "fundamentals", at least as espoused by Fundamentalists, have never been a part of Christianity, are only a very recent idea, and were formulated by men who do not have the authority to speak for Christianity.

There has never been a defined teaching on the age of the Earth, the manner in which God created man, nor the process in which the modern world came into being. It's something that has been kicked around within Christianity since the beginning. Some of the early Fathers of the Church taught a literal six day creation, some commentators -primarily Origen- used the internal text of Genesis to prove that it was not six literal days, and some said that God created the Earth in its present form instantaneously. You are free to choose whatever version of creation you want. Anyone telling you anything is else is claiming to know everything. No one knows everything so keep that in mind.

I'll give you a piece of advice. Insisting on one version or another of creation is extremely dangerous.

There is know question about the age of earth or the universe. They can give a close estimate with in a few million years. The age of the earth is harder than the age of the universe. The speed of light which is the distance light travels in a year says beyond a shadow of a doubt the universe is at least 13/14 billion years old and maybe older. 13 billion light years is as far as we have seen

 

[FaithT]

The controversy comes from what was called "the Scopes Monkey Trial". Or at the very least, that played a very large part in it. It was protestant fundamentalism pitted against science in a "winner-take-all fight to the death". But in the end it is meaningless. For one, the "fundamentals", at least as espoused by Fundamentalists, have never been a part of Christianity, are only a very recent idea, and were formulated by men who do not have the authority to speak for Christianity.

There has never been a defined teaching on the age of the Earth, the manner in which God created man, nor the process in which the modern world came into being. It's something that has been kicked around within Christianity since the beginning. Some of the early Fathers of the Church taught a literal six day creation, some commentators -primarily Origen- used the internal text of Genesis to prove that it was not six literal days, and some said that God created the Earth in its present form instantaneously. You are free to choose whatever version of creation you want. Anyone telling you anything is else is claiming to know everything. No one knows everything so keep that in mind.

I'll give you a piece of advice. Insisting on one version or another of creation is extremely dangerous.

What do you have to say about what Paradox wrote in post #5?

 

[FaithT]

Precisely right.

What do you have to say about what Paradox wrote in post #5?

 

[The Barbarian]

What do you have to say about what Paradox wrote in post #5?

I don't think any cosmologist would say our estimates are accurate to a few million years. (Barbarian checks) Turns out, using data from globular clusters, oldest ones we see would indicate a universe 11 to 18 billion years old. Estimates using the Hubble constant suggest 12 to 14 billion years old.

The age of the Earth, using radiometric data, is about 4.5 billion years, with a claimed uncertainty of 0.5 billion years.

What HTacianas has precisely right is this:
There has never been a defined teaching on the age of the Earth, the manner in which God created man, nor the process in which the modern world came into being.

Scripture can give us no guidance on these things, since it does not clearly indicate any particular way or time frame for them.

 

[FaithT]

What do you have to say about what Paradox wrote in post #5?

HTacianas?

 

[The Barbarian]

What do you have to say about what Paradox wrote in post #5?

This:
I don't think any cosmologist would say our estimates are accurate to a few million years. (Barbarian checks) Turns out, using data from globular clusters, oldest ones we see would indicate a universe 11 to 18 billion years old. Estimates using the Hubble constant suggest 12 to 14 billion years old.

The age of the Earth, using radiometric data, is about 4.5 billion years, with a claimed uncertainty of 0.5 billion years.

 

[FaithT]

HTacianas?

@HTacianas

 

[HTacianas]

@HTacianas

I'm not sure what your question is.

 

[FaithT]

I'm not sure what your question is.

What’s your opinion on what he said regarding the ages of the earth and universe, vs, young ages?

 

[HTacianas]

What’s your opinion on what he said regarding the ages of the earth and universe, vs, young ages?

That's the same view I hold.

 

[FaithT]

That's the same view I hold.

I was under the impression that you either believed in a young earth or that you were ok with that belief.

 

[HTacianas]

I was under the impression that you either believed in a young earth or that you were ok with that belief.

It doesn't matter to me what belief anyone holds regarding the age of the Earth. What does matter to me is when someone holds out their view on the age of the Earth and demands that view to be an essential part of salvation. I said above that it is "dangerous" to do that. Some person who otherwise would accept the gospel and live a Christian life refuses to because they can't accept the idea of a six day creation or a six thousand year old universe. So they miss out on salvation. And it is the direct result of someone forcing a viewpoint on them that is irrelevant. What do you think might become of the person forcing that viewpoint on others?

 

[FaithT]

It doesn't matter to me what belief anyone holds regarding the age of the Earth. What does matter to me is when someone holds out their view on the age of the Earth and demands that view to be an essential part of salvation. I said above that it is "dangerous" to do that. Some person who otherwise would accept the gospel and live a Christian life refuses to because they can't accept the idea of a six day creation or a six thousand year old universe. So they miss out on salvation. And it is the direct result of someone forcing a viewpoint on them that is irrelevant. What do you think might become of the person forcing that viewpoint on others?

Oh, I agree. I belong to Lutheran LCMS and the belief is a young earth. I believe in an old earth. Before I had one of several emails with my pastor I was distraught, thought of going elsewhere. Turns out my pastor if fine with my beliefs and even consulted another pastor about it and both said it was okay, which I didn’t expect.

 

[The Barbarian]

It doesn't matter to me what belief anyone holds regarding the age of the Earth. What does matter to me is when someone holds out their view on the age of the Earth and demands that view to be an essential part of salvation.

Exactly. One YE creationist put it well:

"Don't make an idol of your ability to reason." - Dr. Todd Wood

 

[coffee4u]

Why can the big bang not be god starting the universe.

Because that is not how he said that he did it.

The real question here is why do you want the universe to start with a big bang?
Whenever we question God's word it's a good time to reflect on why that is and be honest about it.

I believe in god, the universe is to complex to not have a designers and the math agrees with me on that. The mathematical odds of everything coming about by chance are so astronomically so high that its considered impossible.

Maths is only correct when it has the correct numbers. Assuming we have the numbers is going to be just that an assumption. One thing we can know about assumptions is they can be right or wrong.
Faith is not based on maths or evidence or on what is most likely but on a relationship with God. Even if the maths or evidence points to something different this should not alter our faith. if it does alter or waiver our faith it is again time to reflect on why that is.

Of course atheist would disagree but I personally think the reason they hate the idea of god so much is god is not something that you can control. I have seen unquestionable evidence of evolution. Skeletons of humans and animals over the last 100,000 years shows those differences.

What you have seen are fossils and bones, not evidence of evolution. Evolution is the story woven around the facts to explain the facts. Creation is likewise a story woven around the facts, but this story is upheld in God's word.

The fossil record shows prove. Geology has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the earth is about 4 billion years old.

Based on man made dating methods which are in turn based on assumptions.
How was that 4 billion years arrived at? Radiometric dating.
The Age of the Earth - Isochron Dating as a Current Scientific Clock: Calvin Krogman
These assumptions include:
1) the initial amount of the daughter isotope is known,
2) neither parent or daughter product has migrated into, or out of, the closed rock system, and
3) decay has occurred at a constant rate over time.
You only need 1 assumption to be incorrect to arrive at vastly different dates. dating like the rest of this theory has many assumptions as its foundation. Man made assumptions by people who weren't there who don't know everything.

Astronomy has proven the universe is about 13/14 billion years old...they know this by measuring the distance light travels. The Andromeda Galaxy is about 2.5 millions lightyears away from us, that means if we were traveling at the speed of light we would still be traveling 2.5 million years. It also means what we see through the telescope is something from 2.5 million years ago your literally looking at the past. The farthest Galaxy is 13.4 billion light-years. That means it took 13.4 billion years roughly before the light of that galaxy reached us. That means we are seeing something from 13 billion years ago. It means the bible and its the universe is 7/8000 years old is incorrect.

Again all based on man made assumptions.

It means the bible was written by ignorant men

Better go tell God that the words were not actually his then.
2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

who were telling there story of the world from there very limited knowledge of the universe.

They didn't need to know anything, they wrote down what God wanted them to write down.

When we move into the New Testament most historians even atheist think Jesus existed...his divinity is a matter of faith not fact. I chose to believe in god because science says it is the most likely possibility, God, Aliens, something created the universe there is know doubt for me.

Belief in God due to evidence is not enough.
James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
We have to give God our trust.
Science doesn't care about the existence of God or not, it doesn't delve into the supernatural at all.

I believe in god because I talk with him and I think he answers in his own way.

You might want to start reading his word to you then.

I do not think Christ is a crutch. The majority of people are born with the ability to chose there own destiny. People blame god or the devil for there problems. I blame know one for my problems but me. If you really look at most of the stuff in your life there is good and bad, and most of it not all but the majority is on you and your decisions. As for god...it is a matter of faith.

It is a matter of faith, but faith is not simply knowing that God exists while casting aside his scribes simply as ignorant men who didn't know what they were writing. Those men penned down God's word often at great cost to their own lives so that you could read it. Scripture is not just a collection of interesting writings, God works through it to change lives.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Might want to think about how much faith you are putting in mans assumptions over God's word.

 

[The Barbarian]

Because that is not how he said that he did it.

He never said how He did it. The details of the initial creation were not given to us.

The real question here is why do you want the universe to start with a big bang?

That's the error creationists always make. When Catholic priest Georges Lemaitre discovered the evidence for the initial expansion of the universe, it wasn't because he wanted it to be so. You're trying to project creationist thinking onto science.

But it wasn't a problem for him, because it suggests a universe of finite age and an initial beginning. This is precisely why atheist Fred Hoyle opposed the theory so vigorously, giving it the name "Big Bang" in an attempt to ridicule it; it seemed to him that it hinted at a creator.

Faith is not based on maths or evidence or on what is most likely but on a relationship with God.

That's true. Let that be good enough. Science can't support faith. It's just too weak a method to do that.

What you have seen are fossils and bones, not evidence of evolution.

Your fellow creationists disagree...

Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT be said that traditional
creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds.
YE creationist Dr. Kurt Wise, Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms

Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well.
...
Creationist students, listen to me very carefully: There is evidence for evolution, and evolution is an extremely successful scientific theory. That doesn't make it ultimately true, and it doesn't mean that there could not possibly be viable alternatives. It is my own faith choice to reject evolution, because I believe the Bible reveals true information about the history of the earth that is fundamentally incompatible with evolution. I am motivated to understand God's creation from what I believe to be a biblical, creationist perspective.
YE Creationist Dr. Todd Wood The Truth About Evolution

Based on man made dating methods which are in turn based on assumptions. How was that 4 billion years arrived at? Radiometric dating.

Since the eruption that destroyed Pompeii was accurately dated by radiometric dating, no one who actually knows how it works doubts that it works. There are entire books written on the ways that one can get errors from testing, and scientists are quite aware of these.

Belief in God due to evidence is not enough.

St. Paul disagrees with you.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

Science doesn't care about the existence of God or not, it doesn't delve into the supernatural at all.

Yes. In fact, it can't. Fortunately, scientists can.